Allah, Yahweh, or Jehovah

[BilliardsBall]

62 + 7 = 69.

Thank you.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Can you provide the citation for this claim? I'd love to look it up and see Jesus mentioned by name, even in English. Thanks.

By the way, here... (Sanhedrin, 106)
Hast thou heard how old Balaam was? — He replied: It is not actually stated, but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days,4 [it follows that] he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old.5 He rejoined: Thou hast said correctly; I personally have seenBalaam's Chronicle, in which it is stated, 'Balaam the lame was thirty years old when Phinehas the Robberkilled him.'6

Footnote 6 -- According to the view that all the Balaam passages are anti-Christian in tendency, Balaam being used as an alias for Jesus, Phinehas the Robber is thus taken to represent Pontius Pilatus, and the Chronicle of Balaam probably to denote a Gospel (v. Herford op. cit. 72ff.). This view is however disputed by Bacher and others: cf. Ginzberg, Journal of Biblical Literature, XLI, 121.

So you are subscribing to an interpretation of the Talmud that scholars dispute. An earlier footnote explains, " Herford, Christianity in the Talmud, p. 48, suggests that Balaam is frequently used in the Talmud as a type for Jesus"

Here is some additional reading (referring to the cache as the site seems to be down -- scroll down to the relevant discussion for sources which you can choose to ignore).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../jesus.html&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0

Thank you for sharing that webpage. I did find it interesting. Who do you think the Talmud was talking about when it spoke of someone who was a harlot with carpenters?

 

[rosends]

Thank you for sharing that webpage. I did find it interesting. Who do you think the Talmud was talking about when it spoke of someone who was a harlot with carpenters?

" In a section of agada which describes Bilaam it is noted that he was once a prophet but that after misusing his powers he became a mere soothsayer. The Talmud quotes a common folk saying current at the time to describe such a descent in status: 'from [being a wife of] royalty [she descended] to be a prostitute to sailors'. Another reading is 'Oyazen [the name of a Persian woman] was the wife of a noble and became the wife of a sailor'.
Michael Gruda ([email protected])"
----------------------------
"R. Yochanan is saying that Balaam had tremendous potential and started out as a true prophet of G-d. However, he turned to evil and in the end of his life became a sorcerer (i.e. user of black magic). This tradition regarding Balaam's descent was also recorded in the Tanchuma [Balak, 5] and in Yalkut Shimoni [Numbers, 771].

Rav Papa adds a parable to explain this. Consider a woman who is married to a powerful ruler who leads their people out into battle. She is used to being the wife of someone strong, whose powerful hands can skillfully manipulate a sword and overcome any opponents. If her husband were to die she would still want to marry someone in a similar position of leadership and strength. Even if this widow is continually passed over by those she wishes to marry, she will still strive for her former glory, and will even marry a carpenter who, while not leading his countrymen out into battle, still must skillfully handle tools. Even when the ability to reach her old glory is obviously absent, she will still try everything possible to reach any position that remotely resembles it.

Similarly, Balaam started out as a man with prophecy (like a prince or ruler). He was capable of seeing the future and even manipulating it through his curses and blessings. However, when he lost that gift when G-d removed his prophecy, Balaam still wanted to see the future, even resorting to such pale comparisons as sorcery and black magic (like a carpenter).

This passage has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus and there is certainly no insult implied towards Mary.

Cf. R. Meir HaLevi Abulafia, Yad Ramah, Sanhedrin ad. loc.; Ephraim Urbach, "Rabbinic Exegesis About Gentile Prophets And The Balaam Passage" (Hebrew), Tarbitz (25:1956), p. 284 n. 56. "

[ http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../jesus.html&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0 ]

 

[BilliardsBall]

" In a section of agada which describes Bilaam it is noted that he was once a prophet but that after misusing his powers he became a mere soothsayer. The Talmud quotes a common folk saying current at the time to describe such a descent in status: 'from [being a wife of] royalty [she descended] to be a prostitute to sailors'. Another reading is 'Oyazen [the name of a Persian woman] was the wife of a noble and became the wife of a sailor'.
Michael Gruda ([email protected])"
----------------------------
"R. Yochanan is saying that Balaam had tremendous potential and started out as a true prophet of G-d. However, he turned to evil and in the end of his life became a sorcerer (i.e. user of black magic). This tradition regarding Balaam's descent was also recorded in the Tanchuma [Balak, 5] and in Yalkut Shimoni [Numbers, 771].

Rav Papa adds a parable to explain this. Consider a woman who is married to a powerful ruler who leads their people out into battle. She is used to being the wife of someone strong, whose powerful hands can skillfully manipulate a sword and overcome any opponents. If her husband were to die she would still want to marry someone in a similar position of leadership and strength. Even if this widow is continually passed over by those she wishes to marry, she will still strive for her former glory, and will even marry a carpenter who, while not leading his countrymen out into battle, still must skillfully handle tools. Even when the ability to reach her old glory is obviously absent, she will still try everything possible to reach any position that remotely resembles it.

Similarly, Balaam started out as a man with prophecy (like a prince or ruler). He was capable of seeing the future and even manipulating it through his curses and blessings. However, when he lost that gift when G-d removed his prophecy, Balaam still wanted to see the future, even resorting to such pale comparisons as sorcery and black magic (like a carpenter).

This passage has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus and there is certainly no insult implied towards Mary.

Cf. R. Meir HaLevi Abulafia, Yad Ramah, Sanhedrin ad. loc.; Ephraim Urbach, "Rabbinic Exegesis About Gentile Prophets And The Balaam Passage" (Hebrew), Tarbitz (25:1956), p. 284 n. 56. "

[ http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../jesus.html&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0 ]

So in the Talmud there is a person, who is not Jesus's mother Mary, who is "the descendant of princes and governors and played the harlot with carpenters", and who gave birth to a prophet who became a sorcerer (had miracle if negative powers)?

And in the same section of Talmud, some other person, who is not Jesus, deserved to die, and died at 33 1/2 (or at least between 33 and 34 years of age)?

 

[rosends]

So in the Talmud there is a person, who is not Jesus's mother Mary, who is "the descendant of princes and governors and played the harlot with carpenters", and who gave birth to a prophet who became a sorcerer (had miracle if negative powers)?

And in the same section of Talmud, some other person, who is not Jesus, deserved to die, and died at 33 1/2 (or at least between 33 and 34 years of age)?

In the talmud, there is a discussion of Bilam. The discussion of playing the harlot with carpenters was a parable to explain his fall from potential greatness. There is no actual discussion of a woman giving birth to a prophet. The section related to Bilam's age says "R. Chanina: It does not say explicitly, but since it says "Anshei Damim u'Mirmah Lo Yechetzu Yemeihem" (Resha'im will not live even half a normal lifetime, i.e. 35 years), presumably he lived 33 or 34 years.
The Min answered: You are correct. The annals ('Rashi' on Avos - tombstone) of Bil'am say(s) 'the lame Bil'am was 33 years old when (the army led by) Pinchas killed him.'

and the section about the carpenters reads, "This is like people say, the former wife of a prince was Mezanah with people who pull ships (Rashi; Ramah - she will marry only someone else who bears something resembling weapons, such as a carpenter)."

 

[Tumah]

62 + 7 = 69.

Thank you.

For some reason, I'm linked to this response even though you don't quote me or @ me.
Anyway, 62+7 does indeed equal 69, however the verse clearly doesn't say 69. 62 related to the earlier part of the verse and 7 to the latter part.

This is also a very poor response to my response.

 

[BilliardsBall]

In the talmud, there is a discussion of Bilam. The discussion of playing the harlot with carpenters was a parable to explain his fall from potential greatness. There is no actual discussion of a woman giving birth to a prophet. The section related to Bilam's age says "R. Chanina: It does not say explicitly, but since it says "Anshei Damim u'Mirmah Lo Yechetzu Yemeihem" (Resha'im will not live even half a normal lifetime, i.e. 35 years), presumably he lived 33 or 34 years.
The Min answered: You are correct. The annals ('Rashi' on Avos - tombstone) of Bil'am say(s) 'the lame Bil'am was 33 years old when (the army led by) Pinchas killed him.'

and the section about the carpenters reads, "This is like people say, the former wife of a prince was Mezanah with people who pull ships (Rashi; Ramah - she will marry only someone else who bears something resembling weapons, such as a carpenter)."

Okay, but what we can say with certainty is that Jesus and Paul were engaged in disputing Talmudic ideas with their contemporaries. For example, Jesus's disciples are reproved for not washing their hands before a meal, something that we would find in (oral, later written) Talmud and not Tanakh. Yes? No?

 

[BilliardsBall]

For some reason, I'm linked to this response even though you don't quote me or @ me.
Anyway, 62+7 does indeed equal 69, however the verse clearly doesn't say 69. 62 related to the earlier part of the verse and 7 to the latter part.

This is also a very poor response to my response.

"Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’"

"...7 sevens and 62 sevens... from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed one, the ruler, comes..."

69 sevens until the one, the ruler... not 69 sevens until a one, a ruler...

Also, note God's imprecation for you and me, Tumah, to "...know and understand..." indicating their is some work to be done here.

Thanks.

 

[Tumah]

"Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’"

"...7 sevens and 62 sevens... from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed one, the ruler, comes..."

That makes no sense at all. If it meant 69, it would have said 69. It says:
"... from the going out of the word to return and build, until an anointed leader, seven weeks. And sixty two weeks it shall be returned and rebuilt..."

"... and after the sixty two weeks, an anointed one will be cut off and be no more..."

69 sevens until the one, the ruler... not 69 sevens until a one, a ruler...

It defintely says "a" and that is undeniable. The letter that would indicate "the" is clearly lacking.

Also, note God's imprecation for you and me, Tumah, to "...know and understand..." indicating their is some work to be done here.

Thanks.

There is nothing in this verse that applies to you.

 

[rosends]

Okay, but what we can say with certainty is that Jesus and Paul were engaged in disputing Talmudic ideas with their contemporaries. For example, Jesus's disciples are reproved for not washing their hands before a meal, something that we would find in (oral, later written) Talmud and not Tanakh. Yes? No?

Jesus and Paul could very well have been disputing Talmudic ideas -- we know Jesus quoted from the talmud and Jesus endorsed the talmud through his endorsement of the teachings of the Pharisees (the talmudic rabbis). People nowadays argue talmudic concepts as well.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That makes no sense at all. If it meant 69, it would have said 69. It says:
"... from the going out of the word to return and build, until an anointed leader, seven weeks. And sixty two weeks it shall be returned and rebuilt..."

"... and after the sixty two weeks, an anointed one will be cut off and be no more..."


It defintely says "a" and that is undeniable. The letter that would indicate "the" is clearly lacking.


There is nothing in this verse that applies to you.

I understand all but the last part, since I said that you and I, indeed, all readers, are encouraged to know and to understand. The only "secret knowledge initiates" I recognize have illumination from the Spirit, and the Spirit enlightens many people, Jews and Gentiles.

What I understand and know (?) you to be saying in the rest of your post equates to:

The fact that Jesus died on the cross precisely 69 x 7 360-day years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem mentioned in Daniel 9, on Passover, must be taken for a mere coincidence.

Now I guess I must ask, "Do you believe in coincidences?"

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus and Paul could very well have been disputing Talmudic ideas -- we know Jesus quoted from the talmud and Jesus endorsed the talmud through his endorsement of the teachings of the Pharisees (the talmudic rabbis). People nowadays argue talmudic concepts as well.

Which prompts my next question to you,

Has Talmud enlightened the world of Gentiles or is it Tanakh?

 

[rosends]

Which prompts my next question to you,

Has Talmud enlightened the world of Gentiles or is it Tanakh?

I don't know what "enlightening a world" means and the grammar of your question makes it unclear what you mean by "it". The talmud is a series of discussions and rules. For the most part, these ideas relate to and apply to Jews, but because the explication gives normative understanding of the text, anyone can look in and say "oh, that's what the tanach text means."

 

[Tumah]

I understand all but the last part, since I said that you and I, indeed, all readers, are encouraged to know and to understand. The only "secret knowledge initiates" I recognize have illumination from the Spirit, and the Spirit enlightens many people, Jews and Gentiles.

Which of course is a load of hogwash. But since you are allowed to eat pig, hogwash is not a problem

What I understand and know (?) you to be saying in the rest of your post equates to:

The fact that Jesus died on the cross precisely 69 x 7 360-day years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem mentioned in Daniel 9, on Passover, must be taken for a mere coincidence.

Now I guess I must ask, "Do you believe in coincidences?"

What you should have understood me to be saying is

The fact that Christian scholars reverse engineered dates and translations so as to come out with a date for Jesus' death that coincidences with a prophetic date that would otherwise be unrelated to him, is no surprise to me.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't know what "enlightening a world" means and the grammar of your question makes it unclear what you mean by "it". The talmud is a series of discussions and rules. For the most part, these ideas relate to and apply to Jews, but because the explication gives normative understanding of the text, anyone can look in and say "oh, that's what the tanach text means."

You did scratch where I itched, thank you.

The Tanakh text means what it means--the intent, which I respect, as an analogy, "Moishe said kill the animal, what kind of knife should we use?" is not a bad thing. It's where Talmud says, "God said this but it REALLY means this," that there is concern. My point was the Gentile world knows little of Talmud, much of Tanakh--and if your response is, "They should learn Talmud..." well, since Tanakh points to Jesus...

 

[BilliardsBall]

Which of course is a load of hogwash. But since you are allowed to eat pig, hogwash is not a problem


What you should have understood me to be saying is

The fact that Christian scholars reverse engineered dates and translations so as to come out with a date for Jesus' death that coincidences with a prophetic date that would otherwise be unrelated to him, is no surprise to me.

Wait a second. It's hogwash that God can specially illumine men to understand His Word? Or are you saying it's hogwash that God can help a Gentile understand His Word?

As for the second part, liberal and conservative scholars agree Jesus died in the time period under discussion. As important, I have no doubt He died, did miracles and rose, because most of the early believers were
Jews. They could have said He didn't do all these things, they were contemporaries, and they knew truth.

 

[DawudTalut]

Allah, Yahweh, or Jehovah. Which one and why?

Peace be on you.
Same God.
1=The proper name of God in Arabic is ALLAH in Islam.
2=The general word for deity in Arabic is ILAH.
3=The concept of a Supreme Being exists in other religions:
EL of the Canaanites
ELOHIM or YAHWEH (JEHOVAH) of the Hebrews
YAZDAN or KHUDA of the Persians
BRAHMAN in Sanskrit
DEUS in Latin
THEOS in Greek
DIEU in French
GOTT in German,
GOD in the English language

 

[Tumah]

Wait a second. It's hogwash that God can specially illumine men to understand His Word? Or are you saying it's hogwash that God can help a Gentile understand His Word?

G-d can do anything He wants. The Christian concept of the holy spirit teaching them bible is naturally, a big load of hogwash. But again, Jews have no problem with you Christians eating pig. Just don't offer it to us...

As for the second part, liberal and conservative scholars agree Jesus died in the time period under discussion.

Let's not try to play with words, yes? Scholars disagree as to the date, including the year of his death. You are picking a little bit from everyone, in order to get the date you want.

As important, I have no doubt He died, did miracles and rose, because most of the early believers were
Jews. They could have said He didn't do all these things, they were contemporaries, and they knew truth.

Alternatively, they could have just been looking for a good time and Jesus had a fast ride, so they hopped on in.
Jesus was not the first or last false messiah. Nor was he the first or last false messiah that convinced Jews to follow him. So the fact that Jews followed him lends absolutely 0% validity to his claim. Its even kind of weird that Christians keep bringing it up. Almost as if they don't realize that its happened to other false messiahs as well...

 

[Tumah]

Peace be on you.
Same God.
1=The proper name of God in Arabic is ALLAH in Islam.
2=The general word for deity in Arabic is ILAH.
3=The concept of a Supreme Being exists in other religions:
EL of the Canaanites
ELOHIM or YAHWEH (JEHOVAH) of the Hebrews
YAZDAN or KHUDA of the Persians
BRAHMAN in Sanskrit
DEUS in Latin
THEOS in Greek
DIEU in French
GOTT in German,
GOD in the English language

Your list makes no sense. Some of these are proper nouns and some are just nouns. There is no consistency here.

 

[anonymous9887]

Peace be on you.
Same God.
1=The proper name of God in Arabic is ALLAH in Islam.
2=The general word for deity in Arabic is ILAH.
3=The concept of a Supreme Being exists in other religions:
EL of the Canaanites
ELOHIM or YAHWEH (JEHOVAH) of the Hebrews
YAZDAN or KHUDA of the Persians
BRAHMAN in Sanskrit
DEUS in Latin
THEOS in Greek
DIEU in French
GOTT in German,
GOD in the English language

You are mistaken Yahweh is not a title like theos.

Exodus 3:15 he says in that passage YHWH is my name forever.