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Aliens and religious beliefs.

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It seems to when so many genes have no known function.

Shared genes (with or without function) are expected in context of evolution, regardless of ultimate origins of life.

Why on earth would they be expected, specifically, for extra-terrestial origins of life?
It doesn't follow at all.

How can oaks and humans share so much DNA when most of it seems unnecessary to life on earth.

Because they share ancient ancestry.


Their common ancestor must have been a very simple creature so why did it have so much human/ oak DNA?

//facepalm

It's not "human or oak DNA".
What a weird (and ignorant) thing to say.


Why was this needed before anything had even "evolved"?

Another very weird thing to say.
Humans and trees, oak or otherwise, are both eukaryotes and share eukaryote ancestry (and beyond).
The shared history of humans and trees goes back 3.8 billion years. And that early life form has been evolving ever since.

The very phrase "before anything had even evolved", when talking about a shared history worth of at least 3.2 billion years of evolution, is quite bonkers, to be honest.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
“In the year 22, of the third month of the winter, sixth hour of the day […], the scribes of the House of Life found that there was a circle of fire coming from the sky. It had no head. From its mouth came a foul odour. Its body was one rod long and one rod wide and it was noiseless.



“And their hearts became terrified and confused, and they fell upon their bellies. They reported to the Pharaoh. His Majesty [ordered that] the scrolls [located] in the House of Life be consulted. His Majesty meditated on all these events which were now going on.



“After few days had gone by, these things became more numerous in the sky than ever. They shined in the sky more than the brightness of the sun, and extended to the four supports of the heaven. Dominated in the sky was the station of these five circles.



The army of the Pharaoh looked on with him in their midst. It was after the evening meal when these five circles ascended higher in the sky towards the south. Fishes and birds fell down from the sky.



“A marvel never before known since the foundation of this land. And Pharaoh caused incense to be brought to make peace with Earth […] and what happened was ordered to be written in the Annals of the House of Life so that it be remembered for ever.”

UFOs in ancient Egypt? The Mystery of the Tulli Papyrus

I don't take this too seriously because I've never heard an expert opinion on its accuracy or veracity. It comes from a time in Egypt's history that expert opinion might be right and there's little reason to doubt it unlike expert opinion on great pyramids which is utterly wrong.

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cladking

Well-Known Member
It's not "human or oak DNA".
What a weird (and ignorant) thing to say.

Logic says that if all this extraneous DNA originated on earth than the last common ancestor of humans and oaks mustta had a lot of their DNA.

The very phrase "before anything had even evolved", when talking about a shared history worth of at least 3.2 billion years of evolution, is quite bonkers, to be honest.

Are you aware that plants and animals diverged very early in earth's evolutionary history? There certainly wasn't time for much "evolution" before oaks and humans diverged. Of course you might believe it to be entirely "natural" for hundreds of millions of years of "evolution" to go by with very little change in the make up of the biosphere. I believe it's more likely that life was still just getting established so undergoing very little change in species.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I am His ambassador... so, yes? ;)

Perhaps we are all ambassadors of the one that we perceive to have created everything? Or, perhaps, the creator works for us? Serving our needs? If so, where is the creator when we hurt? Cancer? Car accidents? If we are here to serve the creator, shouldn't we be told that our fun is limited, and the fun of the creator is more important? To what extent are we limited?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I think the big question is 'will they be friendly?' Steven Hawking doesn't believe so. "If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans,"
It would be much better for humans to keep a low profile, he says. There's a good chance we don't want aliens to come calling, Hawking says, because they very likely wouldn't be the cuddly, ET types we hope for.

Don't Tell The Aliens We're Here, Stephen Hawking Says; They Might Not Be Friendly : The Two-Way : NPR

The Twilight Zone said that the book "To Serve Man," when translated, was a cookbook. Yet, it seems odd that they would travel lightyears for a light snack. Yet, if they took a breeding pair back to their home planet, they could have snacks for eternity. Would it be a bad existence to be cared for until eaten? But how do we know if we would be cared for? What about the reports of cattle multilations?

Any alien capable of traveling lightyears, would have to be able to destroy our whole planet with hardly an effort. But, why make the effort? Could they visit us merely for scientific curiosity? To see if our civilization differs from theirs, and how?

In the movie V, the government had to appease the aliens, because they were much more powerful than we are. So they gave them light snacks (people to eat), while the earthlings learned the secrets of their advanced technologies and tried to spot weaknesses. It was the only way of staying alive while learning.

If aliens land on earth, they might use the standard greeting "take me to your leader" and they will assume that we chose the most intelligent being. They might be a bit surprises......"No, really....take us to your leader."

Our initial experiments with space exploration involved the use of monkeys (and the Russians used a dog). Would aliens capture these animals, assume that they were the ones with the advanced technology and try to torture them for information about how the systems work?

If it is true that aliens have visited earth, it would appear that they didn't want their appearance known. They seem to hide from the press, and only a few have claimed to have seen them. If so, why hide?

Maybe aliens, watching our movies from space (TV broadcasts), have noted the Death Star of Star Wars, and were afraid? Maybe they saw the awesome power of Darth Vader, and thought that it was a documentary (true) rather than a Sci Fi for entertainment?

Perhaps we should greet the aliens warmly until they do something to distrust them?

What if someone fires a gun at them (and it is not the intention of most of us to fire)? Maybe that would start a war with peaceful aliens?

Likely, if Trump were to be elected again, he'd deport the UFO aliens to Mexico. But, they don't speak Spanish....it doesn't really matter--off they go to the other side of the border wall (along with Chinese immigrants, and others). Trump would merely assume that they speak "foreign" because it isn't the language that he speaks. Maybe, while down there, the alien technology would help Mexico's factory production?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Funnily enough,the mosquito is one of my evidences againt a caring God. Why make humans as the pinnacle of creation then make a tiny mosquito that can kill them.

We can turn the tables on mosquitos. We could get tiny hypodermic needles, remove the mosquito's blood, and walk around the mosquito's head making a buzzing sound, and send probes into the mosquito's ears (annoying).

Also, I have a plan to get back at birds who poop on my head. First I have to climb a tree, then tell the bird that I have more than it does. Hmm....maybe this is why the neighbors always complain?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Perhaps we are all ambassadors of the one that we perceive to have created everything? Or, perhaps, the creator works for us? Serving our needs? If so, where is the creator when we hurt? Cancer? Car accidents? If we are here to serve the creator, shouldn't we be told that our fun is limited, and the fun of the creator is more important? To what extent are we limited?

We definitely are all ambassadors of something. Anytime we speak on behalf of an organization or a group, you could say we are ambassadors.

No... I don't believe the Creator works for us. Though, in our faith, He didn't use His power and authority to remain aloof from the fray. As noted, He not only came but He came to serve. Not necessarily every whim we want but rather that which is good for us. Remember the foot washing?

When we hurt, He hurts with us. I'm sure there are times when you have had empathy. But we don't want to play the blame game. IMV, it would be wrong that when a person gets drunk and then kills someone in a car accent that somehow we would say that the Creator didn't care. Car accidents are of human design not God.

As far as "limited fun"... I think He was pretty clear. At least in the scriptures that I read. I remember when we were at a New Year's Eve party. We were having a blast. Eddie came till about 11:30pm then went to his accustomed "party". He sat in the corner drinking an alcoholic beverage accustomed in use to make "the party" fun. Looking at the dance floor, he said to himself... the other party didn't need alcohol but they were having a blast. Here it is all a mask.

Gave his life to Jesus not long after and now understands "fun".

As far as "what is our limits"? In humanity, as we see babies being raped, it is obvious that man has no limit to his imagination. However, there is a judgment to come and time on this earth is a short 79 years. It will all work out in the end.

Meanwhile, I remain an ambassador speaking on His behalf to the best of my ability. :) Trying to be His hands, His feet and His voice in this temporal world that we live in.

Of course, I speak as a Christian. We know there are other ambassadors of other gods and religions.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
You are incorrect. I know how easily people can fool themselves. For example you cannot claim to have four independent memories since you have all affected each other's thoughts. The most likely answer is that you saw something that you did not understand and misinterpreted it. Have you thought about this rationally? It appears not. Were you in a place where others were likely to have seen the same event? If that is the case then why aren't there other reports of it? If you think that it really happened you should see if you can investigate it properly. That means if a supposed witness was found that you and your friends would be the last people that could interview such a person. Do you understand why you are disqualified as an interviewer?
Again, YOU WERE NOT THERE. You have no idea of what happened. Your stance is based on not wanting there to be other life in the universe when there is. Your ideas do not erase the FACT it did happen. We were out in the country away from the city and we were on a mountain, hillside when we crested the hill to look out over the valley beneath, a valley that was isolated, there they were. The UFO's were silent so we had no advanced warning there was anything on the other side of the hill . Did anyone else see it? Perhaps someone did, but we never met them and it was a large area, mountainous area. People hesitate to say they saw UFO's because of ridicule. We told friends that know we do not lie to them, but not our employers to avoid the very stance you are taking.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Again, YOU WERE NOT THERE. You have no idea of what happened. Your stance is based on not wanting there to be other life in the universe when there is. Your ideas do not erase the FACT it did happen. We were out in the country away from the city and we were on a mountain, hillside when we crested the hill to look out over the valley beneath, a valley that was isolated, there they were. The UFO's were silent so we had no advanced warning there was anything on the other side of the hill . Did anyone else see it? Perhaps someone did, but we never met them and it was a large area, mountainous area. People hesitate to say they saw UFO's because of ridicule. We told friends that know we do not lie to them, but not our employers to avoid the very stance you are taking.
And I don't have had to have been there to tell you why you are likely to have been mistaken. Why do you think that a person "had to be there"? Do you not know that human perception is very often flawed. If you want those that can reason rationally seriously you need to face the possible ways that you were wrong in your interpretation.

By the way, you did see a UFO. You probably did not see an alien.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Logic says that if all this extraneous DNA originated on earth than the last common ancestor of humans and oaks mustta had a lot of their DNA.
Why yes, the last common ancestor of humans and oaks would share a lot of DNA with both.

That ancestor was certainly a type of eucaryote, and so would have all the genes associated with eucaryotes. That includes quite a large number of genes, actually.

Are you aware that plants and animals diverged very early in earth's evolutionary history?
Plants and animals diverged not long after the development of eucaryotic cells. This was before other multicellular organisms, but fairly late in terms of time (bacteria had been around for billions of years before this).

There certainly wasn't time for much "evolution" before oaks and humans diverged.
That is clearly false. Life originated about 3.8 billion years ago. The earliest eucaryotic cells were at least 1.6 billion years ago. So that is about 2.2 billion years right there.

It's tricky to know when the first plants were, but the first *land* plants weren't until about 500 million years. The first multicellular animals go back to about 800 million years ago. In any case, it is clear that there was a good half billion years between the first eucaryotes and the first multicellular animals and plants.

That is clearly *plenty* of time for a LOT of genetic change (since all vertebrate evolution has been within the last half billion years).

Of course you might believe it to be entirely "natural" for hundreds of millions of years of "evolution" to go by with very little change in the make up of the biosphere. I believe it's more likely that life was still just getting established so undergoing very little change in species.

Well, the actual fossil evidence is that there were hundreds of millions of years between the first eucaryotic cells and multicellular organisms. There was a lot of change in the biosphere, just not a lot that is morphological in nature.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I’d like to back and answer one of the OP’s questions more directly to the point.

Do you believe that intelligent life forms exist beyond Earth?

When I had earlier replied to your thread, I meant any life at all...meaning I agreed with Viker’s points:

I don't believe aliens have visited or have had direct contact. Aliens could be anything from single cell organisms to complex organisms such as us. I really don't know.

His point being, that the life could be unicellular organisms or complex multicellular organisms.

Whether they are “intelligent” or not, depends on two things:
  1. What do you mean by “intelligent”?
  2. And how far along the evolutionary development any organisms are in other planets?
You need to remember that life on Earth had 3.7 billion years of evolution, before the current species flourish here, include the only Homo species to survive - the Homo sapiens - or more precisely its modern subspecies - the Homo sapiens sapiens.

But Homo sapiens have only around 200,000 years, the oldest species of genus Homo about 2.5 million years.

But the earliest species on Earth were unicellular organisms with prokaryotic cells from two different domains -
  1. Bacteria
  2. Archaea
The earliest evidence of species from the Bacteria exist as early as 3.8 billion years ago.

The points being, we only know of life on Earth.

We don’t know anything about life on other planets from other star systems from this galaxy or other galaxies, and we don’t know how far in the evolutionary histories of organisms that exist in these planets.

Different conditions in these planets would mean they would evolve not quite the same species as what happened on earth. But until we are observed these planets up close, we don’t have information to know what species exist on these planets that have life.

Whether life are unicellular or more complex multicellular, we don’t know if any of these organisms possess intelligence or not. We simply don’t know. Maybe some are intelligent and maybe some are not.

It is all speculations when it come to life on other planets.

But what I doubt is aliens travelling in ships to Earth, given the limitations of technology to reach the speed of light, space travels would take any from tens or hundreds of thousands of years if the planets in nearby star systems, to millions or billions of years if they are outside the Milky Way.

For instance if hypothetically have ship that can travel at light speed, it will still take 2.5 million years to reach the planets in the Andromeda Galaxy.

But no machines or vessels can travel at the speed of light, so it will taken even longer to reach Andromeda Galaxy.

I don’t see how aliens , no matter how advanced, could construct possibly a vessel capable of light speed.

The only way such intergalactic space travel being possible, is in science fiction.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Why yes, the last common ancestor of humans and oaks would share a lot of DNA with both.

That ancestor was certainly a type of eucaryote, and so would have all the genes associated with eucaryotes. That includes quite a large number of genes, actually.


Plants and animals diverged not long after the development of eucaryotic cells. This was before other multicellular organisms, but fairly late in terms of time (bacteria had been around for billions of years before this).


That is clearly false. Life originated about 3.8 billion years ago. The earliest eucaryotic cells were at least 1.6 billion years ago. So that is about 2.2 billion years right there.

It's tricky to know when the first plants were, but the first *land* plants weren't until about 500 million years. The first multicellular animals go back to about 800 million years ago. In any case, it is clear that there was a good half billion years between the first eucaryotes and the first multicellular animals and plants.

That is clearly *plenty* of time for a LOT of genetic change (since all vertebrate evolution has been within the last half billion years).



Well, the actual fossil evidence is that there were hundreds of billions of years between the first eucaryotic cells and multicellular organisms. There was a lot of change in the biosphere, just not a lot that is morphological in nature.
Far too many creationists seem to believe that evolution started at the beginning of the Cambrian. 600 million years ago. They are completely ignorant about the 3.2 billion years of evolution before that.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
And I don't have had to have been there to tell you why you are likely to have been mistaken. Why do you think that a person "had to be there"? Do you not know that human perception is very often flawed. If you want those that can reason rationally seriously you need to face the possible ways that you were wrong in your interpretation.

By the way, you did see a UFO. You probably did not see an alien.
Right, we only saw the aircraft and by that you think 4 aircraft the size of 2 buses each, controlled by humans can disappear.
Kudos if they can, but that means there is no such thing as privacy as anything can be anywhere watching anyone because they can be unseen and are silent.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
One thing many people forget about is that life on Earth is billions of years old while the human species is a fraction of a million years old.

This gets to the question of how long technological species last.

Our own species has had agriculture for 10,000 years. While this sounds like a long time, it is incredibly brief when it comes to either evolution or cosmology.

So, how long does a typical technological species last? it is possible to have nuclear weapons and survive thousands of years? What if such technology kills off most 'intelligent species' within, say, 50,000 years?

If that is the case, the chances that we exist at the same time as another intelligent species in, say, our galactic group, is pretty small. Even if intelligent species are very common, say arising every million years or so, the chances that any one of them will overlap with another is small.

Remember that the Earth and sun are about 5 billion years old. Other stars of *about* the same age exist in abundance, but even if they have planets with life, the brief span of 50,000 years to a typical time scale of hundreds of millions of years is trivial.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Are you aware that plants and animals diverged very early in earth's evolutionary history?
For the1st 2 billion years, there were species from the Bacteria domain and Archaea domain. Both domains are unicellular organisms, with prokaryotic cells, hence these organisms are called collectively as prokaryotes.

Eukaryotic cells didn’t exist until around 1.6 billion years ago, with earlier eukaryotic organisms or eukaryotes being unicellular organisms

Multicellular organisms such as animals and plants didn’t evolve from earlier eukaryotes until later.

Before them were the earliest multicellular eukaryotes, that start appearing in fossil records in the Ediacaran period. Around mid to late Ediacaran, the earliest invertebrates (animals) appeared as primitive sponges and other extinct invertebrates.

Then a glaciation period cause climate change between the end of Ediacaran and start of Cambrian period, which resulted radiations and diversity of more multicellular invertebrates, which you know as the Cambrian Explosion. Marine Arthropoda, like trilobites began appearing in fossils in this period, are also invertebrates.

This Cambrian Explosion started around 542 million years ago, and lasted for 20 million years. Eventually the earliest vertebrates were earliest jawed fishes.

Land plants didn’t exist until after the Cambrian (Ordovician period, becoming more diverse in the Silurian period), but they evolve green algae. When the earliest green algae exist, I don’t know, you would need to ask someone more knowledgeable about the green algae and land vegetation.

What I do know about green algae, is that their cell have photosynthesis capability, like the land plants.

I also know that earlier vegetation did reproduce from seeds until Devonian period, and there were no evidence of flowering plants until 160 million years ago in the Mesozoic era.

Before plants had seed, primitive plants reproduce and propagate through spores. Some plants still exist today, reproduce through spores, like mosses, liverworts and hornworts being the most commonly seen today.

Anyway, you keep mentioning humans and oak trees. Although animals and plants have eukaryotic cells, their evolution are separately in their evolution as animals and plants, and I don’t have the knowledge to pinpoint WHEN and HOW the eukaryotes diversified into what form form the paths of animals and plants, but it definitely predated the Ediacaran period.

You remember I mentioned green algae, and that land plants evolved from them, I don’t know enough about WHEN green algae first exist, and WHAT they evolved from.

Perhaps algae that capable of photosynthesis, evolved from the prokaryotic Cyanobacteria species, because the Cyanobacteria were the first organisms capable of photosynthesis, and introduced free oxygen in the atmosphere, around 2.7-2.6 billion years ago.
 
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