Agnostics -- let's reframe the question.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To be agnostic, or so I am led to believe, means that on the question of whether a god exists or not, cannot be answered either way. In other words, the agnostic cannot know if God exists, or if God does not exist.

But religion is really about faith -- it's about beliefs. And surely we can be honest about what we believe and don't believe, even though we can't definitively say that we know. I cannot know, definitively, whether small, winged, human-like creatures called fairies exist, but I do know that I don't believe they do. Alchemists did not know whether it was actually possible to turn base metal into gold -- but they knew that they believed it possible, because without believing it, they would not have expended the effort and resources trying to accomplish it.

So I would ask those who think of themselves as agnostic, not "do you know," but rather "do you believe that God exists?"

That's one way to look at things.

Personally, I'm interested in exploring why agnostics - or theists who like to complain about atheists - say that we can't know that God doesn't exist.

If their objection is just that human knowledge is tentative generally and inductive reasoning can't give perfect certainty... well, sure, but that applies just as much to anything we learn inductively. I'm not sure why we would need a special term for this when gods are involved.

And I'd go further and suggest that anyone (atheist, believer, agnostic) who thinks they believe (not knows) that a God exists that can reward or punish on the basis of behaviours in life, but acts in ways that invite punishment and forego reward, does not, in actual fact, in their heart of hearts, actually believe it at all. Rather, they think that they believe it, without actually doing so.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. Why would that follow?

 

[Audie]

You don't have to know exactly what God is in order to believe in God of course.
For me that is something that gets revealed to us gradually.

So you are part way to knowing exactly
what God is?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What do you think you would have to do, to earn eternal hell fire?

That is not a sensible question to ask me, since it should be well-known now that I don't hold any such beliefs.

But surely Christians, who are supposed to read the Bible, would know that Revelation 21:8 says, "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[RestlessSoul]

That is not a sensible question to ask me, since it should be well-known now that I don't hold any such beliefs.

But surely Christians, who are supposed to read the Bible, would know that Revelation 21:8 says, "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

I asked you the question about eternal hellfire, because you were the one who brought the subject up. I didn't see anyone else talking about it..

No mention of eternity in that quote from Revelation either btw. Do you think the imagery and rhetoric of Revelation - which I confess is one of my favourite books in the Bible, but only for it's poetic grandeur - is meant to be taken literally?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm glad that it is God who will be doing the judging and not you. God knows humans and our weaknesses and that faith is not "knowing" and faith is pretty low in some believers and that even people in the past whom you would think would know (eg Moses and the apostles) were prone to sin.
We are not saved by being perfectly sinless and indeed we cannot be. It is faith in the one who is sinless, Jesus, and what He did for us, that brings God's gift of eternal life. God wants out trust in Him.
That is not to say that only Christians will be saved and it is not to say that faith does not require a certain righteousness and acts of faith for our faith to be seen as real.

Yes, I'm always impressed by the apparently endless "outs" so many Christians invent for themselves. But really, one has to ask about some who really ought to know better -- some like priests, for example, who diddle children, not once or twice, but dozens of kids, over years and decades. At some point, surely, it becomes clear that this is not a person really ripe for reform.

 

[Audie]

I asked you the question about eternal hellfire, because you were the one who brought the subject up. I didn't see anyone else talking about it..

No mention of eternity in that quote from Revelation either btw. Do you think the imagery and rhetoric of Revelation - which I confess is one of my favourite books in the Bible, but only for it's poetic grandeur - is meant to be taken literally?

Bronze scorpions.
No bronze scorpions, please!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

And I'd go further and suggest that anyone (atheist, believer, agnostic) who thinks they believe (not knows) that a God exists that can reward or punish on the basis of behaviours in life, but acts in ways that invite punishment and forego reward, does not, in actual fact, in their heart of hearts, actually believe it at all. Rather, they think that they believe it, without actually doing so.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. Why would that follow?

As I continually try to point out, our beliefs really do inform our actions -- that which I truly, in my heart of hearts, believe, will cause me to act in some way or not. I like to use the example of knowing that a stove burner glowing red, or a roaring fire, are enough to prevent me from putting my hand near them. I believe completely that they are very hot and can cause very serious pain and damage to my hand if I were to behave otherwise. It would take a great deal of force to get me to plop my hand down on that stove burner, because I really do believe that.

I repeat what I wrote just a few minutes ago -- consider the priest, supposedly a "man of God" who really does know better, molesting children not one or twice, but many dozens of times over years and decades. I do not believe -- most sincerely do not believe -- that that man actually believes what he professes he believes.

 

[RestlessSoul]

As I continually try to point out, our beliefs really do inform our actions -- that which I truly, in my heart of hearts, believe, will cause me to act in some way or not. I like to use the example of knowing that a stove burner glowing red, or a roaring fire, are enough to prevent me from putting my hand near them. I believe completely that they are very hot and can cause very serious pain and damage to my hand if I were to behave otherwise. It would take a great deal of force to get me to plop my hand down on that stove burner, because I really do believe that.

I repeat what I wrote just a few minutes ago -- consider the priest, supposedly a "man of God" who really does know better, molesting children not one or twice, but many dozens of times over years and decades. I do not believe -- most sincerely do not believe -- that that man actually believes what he professes he believes.

God help him if he does

Matthew 18:6

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I asked you the question about eternal hellfire, because you were the one who brought the subject up. I didn't see anyone else talking about it..

No mention of eternity in that quote from Revelation either btw. Do you think the imagery and rhetoric of Revelation - which I confess is one of my favourite books in the Bible, but only for it's poetic grandeur - is meant to be taken literally?

No mention of eternity in Revelation? Does that mean that Matthew was wrong?

25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

25:46 - "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[RestlessSoul]

No mention of eternity in Revelation? Does that mean that Matthew was wrong?

25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

25:46 - "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Well you can make a case for interpreting those verses literally, or you can consider them to be rhetorical flourishes. Either way is missing the point really; the point in that context is Christ’s clear moral instruction, not to neglect the hungry, the thirsty and the downtrodden.

Anyone can trawl the Bible looking for verses to support a hellfire and brimstone interpretation; I’m not sure why you’d choose to do that though. It seems a long way from the essential message of the Gospels, and I’d be distrustful of the motives behind such an interpretation.

 

[Lain]

As I continually try to point out, our beliefs really do inform our actions -- that which I truly, in my heart of hearts, believe, will cause me to act in some way or not. I like to use the example of knowing that a stove burner glowing red, or a roaring fire, are enough to prevent me from putting my hand near them. I believe completely that they are very hot and can cause very serious pain and damage to my hand if I were to behave otherwise. It would take a great deal of force to get me to plop my hand down on that stove burner, because I really do believe that.

I repeat what I wrote just a few minutes ago -- consider the priest, supposedly a "man of God" who really does know better, molesting children not one or twice, but many dozens of times over years and decades. I do not believe -- most sincerely do not believe -- that that man actually believes what he professes he believes.

I believe that certain foods, sleep patterns, and exercises are healthy. It does not follow that I will eat like that, sleep like that, or exercise at all. Just because I am choosing to live a trash life does not mean that I don't believe it is a trash life or that I don't believe a healthy life truly is healthy. Depends on the person there may still be things that happen due to their beliefs, such as for me a loss of self-worth every time I eat an apple pie.

But either way, the point is made, and St. James, brother of the Lord Jesus, made the same point:

"What is the benefit, my brothers, if someone says that he has faith but does not have works? That faith is not able to save him, is it? If a brother or a sister is poorly clothed and lacking food for the day, and one of you should say to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,' but does not give them what is necessary for the body, what is the benefit? Thus also faith, if it does not have works, is dead by itself. But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe, and shudder! But do you want to know, O foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was working together with his works, and by the works the faith was perfected. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,' and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And likewise was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

So instead of saying, "you don't actually believe that," in any case, be it health, morality, or anything, if someone is not living out their beliefs with actions, that does not to me mean that they don't believe it, I'd just say they have a "dead belief," or are a hypocrite, or simply are not living out what they hold to be true.

I fail to see how it is justified to say a person doesn't believe something just because they act in an opposite way for these reasons.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I believe that certain foods, sleep patterns, and exercises are healthy. It does not follow that I will eat like that, sleep like that, or exercise at all. Just because I am choosing to live a trash life does not mean that I don't believe it is a trash life or that I don't believe a healthy life truly is healthy. Depends on the person there may still be things that happen due to their beliefs, such as for me a loss of self-worth every time I eat an apple pie.

But either way, the point is made, and St. James, brother of the Lord Jesus, made the same point:

"What is the benefit, my brothers, if someone says that he has faith but does not have works? That faith is not able to save him, is it? If a brother or a sister is poorly clothed and lacking food for the day, and one of you should say to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,' but does not give them what is necessary for the body, what is the benefit? Thus also faith, if it does not have works, is dead by itself. But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe, and shudder! But do you want to know, O foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was working together with his works, and by the works the faith was perfected. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,' and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And likewise was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

So instead of saying, "you don't actually believe that," in any case, be it health, morality, or anything, if someone is not living out their beliefs with actions, that does not to me mean that they don't believe it, I'd just say they have a "dead belief," or are a hypocrite, or simply are not living out what they hold to be true.

I fail to see how it is justified to say a person doesn't believe something just because they act in an opposite way for these reasons.

Let me give you a personal example.

For 39 years, I was a smoker, and 18 years ago, I quit smoking. I had tried before, because intellectually, I had grasped the idea that smoking might wind up being harmful to my health. But what I can be rationally convinced of, I can rationalize myself out of -- and I did, over and over again. That is why I use that phrase "believe in my heart of hearts."

When I quit smoking it, I was finally helped by the belief of the harm in it was no longer something that I rationalized -- I believed it. And all the effort made by my nicotine-addicted brain cells could not overcome that belief. And in that moment, I quit, without ever once looking back -- no cheating, not even a single puff.

That was the power of belief over something that I just "accepted because authorities told me so."

That is what I am trying to make understood -- that I am convinced, based on people's behaviours, that a lot of so-called religious belief isn't so much belief as it is having accepted intellectually somebody else's presumed "truth."

I suspect that's something about what James might have been getting at: that if you truly believe, you will act accordingly -- not that you should act accordingly.

 

[Lain]

Let me give you a personal example.

For 39 years, I was a smoker, and 18 years ago, I quit smoking. I had tried before, because intellectually, I had grasped the idea that smoking might wind up being harmful to my health. But what I can be rationally convinced of, I can rationalize myself out of -- and I did, over and over again. That is why I use that phrase "believe in my heart of hearts."

When I quit smoking it, I was finally helped by the belief of the harm in it was no longer something that I rationalized -- I believed it. And all the effort made by my nicotine-addicted brain cells could not overcome that belief. And in that moment, I quit, without ever once looking back -- no cheating, not even a single puff.

That was the power of belief over something that I just "accepted because authorities told me so."

That is what I am trying to make understood -- that I am convinced, based on people's behaviours, that a lot of so-called religious belief isn't so much belief as it is having accepted intellectually somebody else's presumed "truth."

I suspect that's something about what James might have been getting at: that if you truly believe, you will act accordingly -- not that you should act accordingly.

I see the distinction then, and indeed I agree. People in Christian circles often make the distinction between "intellectual assent" and "loving acting trust." For St. Paul said in Christ nothing is worth anything but "faith operating through love." I get what you're saying now, and indeed a person who continually does the opposite likely doesn't really have it at their core, even if they have assented.

 

[Shadow11]

Is someone here saying being a priest can cause you to become a pedophile? They are police officers , teachers, family members , priest , pastors , taxi drivers and i could go on. They go where children are accessible and they hide it very well. its not something you catch.
The sin is that it was allowed to go on for decades in an attempt to cover it up to save the reputation of the church instead of acting on what they knew.But that's how the world was back then. I should know I was in a residential school.
Before 1970 beating were apart of life for most people it was encouraged and looked highly upon by society the further back you go the more brutal it gets its evolved enormously in the last 100 years to today where its no longer tolerated. I got a beating for everything when I was a kid and anyone could do it as an adult.

 

[Brian2]

So you are part way to knowing exactly
what God is?

Through faith in God and the Bible we can find out a lot about God.
I guess also I must be on my way to knowing God better, having had a relationship with Him for a while.
I hope I am being changed to become like Jesus also, which is what God is like.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Is someone here saying being a priest can cause you to become a pedophile? They are police officers , teachers, family members , priest , pastors , taxi drivers and i could go on. They go where children are accessible and they hide it very well. its not something you catch.
The sin is that it was allowed to go on for decades in an attempt to cover it up to save the reputation of the church instead of acting on what they knew.But that's how the world was back then. I should know I was in a residential school.
Before 1970 beating were apart of life for most people it was encouraged and looked highly upon by society the further back you go the more brutal it gets its evolved enormously in the last 100 years to today where its no longer tolerated. I got a beating for everything when I was a kid and anyone could do it as an adult.

There was a saying in Victorian England, "Spare the rod and spoil the child". Even when I was at school in the 1960s and 70s corporal punishment was fairly commonplace. We had one teacher who, upon reflection, was clearly a sadist and took pleasure from those beatings. Most didn't, to be fair, many hated doing it but it was almost expected of them.

I remember an English Literature teacher telling us that when she taught in a tough school in Glasgow, all tge teachers were expected to have a leather strap on display on their desk, to keep order. Not so long ago, as you say, but those practices are illegal in most developed countries now, thank God.

 

[Link]

Do you really want to know what I believe and think about God, because it ain't gonna be pretty.

I believe/know that God exists but often I wish He didn't exist. I cannot love a God that created a world that is a storehouse of suffering and through fate and predestination allows some people to suffer so much more than others. It is not as if everyone causes their own suffering, far from it, because all suffering is not brought about by human free will choices and actions.

A few months ago I wrote up a post entitled "Why I cannot forgive God" but I have never felt right about posting it because according to my fellow believers I am supposed to love this God. Sorry, I cannot pretend to love a God that allows so much suffering, not only my own. Nor is it logical to believe that a God who created a material world in which He knew people would suffer is loving. I already know the religious apologetic about how suffering is good for us so I have no need to hear this again.

Frankly, I do not care if God is loving because I have no need for God's love. What difference would it make to me if God loved me? God is not coming around to show it, so all I would have is a belief that God loves me. I am torn by the logical inconsistencies and I defer to logic rather than faith. The only reason I still believe in God is because I know God exists, but I cannot say I believe that God has all the attributes that believers believe He has. I really try to believe it but I just can't.

I think a lot of believers are brainwashed because they have brainwashed themselves. It would make more sense to be an agnostic or a deist than believe in the Abrahamic God of love.

I certainly am not proud of myself for feeling this way, I feel very badly about myself, even ashamed, but I cannot be less than honest about my feelings. These are feelings that are caused by thoughts. I do not always think and feel this way, but I do some the time. I am sure it is something going on in my unconscious that triggers it.

By the name of God seek refuge in God from the dark sorcery and telepathic whisper of Iblis and his forces, you will be fine.

 

[Trailblazer]

By the name of God seek refuge in God from the dark sorcery and telepathic whisper of Iblis and his forces, you will be fine.

What is the dark sorcery and telepathic whisper of Iblis and his forces?

 

[Link]

What is the dark sorcery and telepathic whisper of Iblis and his forces?

It’s Fel infusion there is a darkness and light and both have companions to the soul. The leader of the time is the light and the evil genies with the soul are the darkness. The evil companion connects you to Iblis and the Imam connects you to God and the Ahlulbayt. It’s a tug war for every soul and the leader takes on the Jinn who lead astray claiming to be our guardians and the leader is the guardian of every soul but even he can’t guide and pull to the light those who run away from him to the darkness or follow their dark desires with no fear of God.

 

[Link]

Our actions are Alive in the soul and take forms in the unseen realm of the soul. Dark deeds infuse the evil companion and good deeds fuse you with the Imam of time.