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Featured Adam and Eve

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Conscious thoughts, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Congratulations. You just debunked Lamarckism. Something that scientists did in the early 20th century with the Modern Synthesis (the combination of Darwinian evolution and genetics).
     
  2. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    If you think we believe because we have no better explanation then you'd be wrong .
     
  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And yet you cannot seem to provide a rational reason to believe. When a person makes claims but cannot support them why believe that person?
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is Zeus and Odin who claim to have created Adam and Eve and named them humans.

    I believe science does the speculating. The scientists speculated that homosapiens was only 400,00 years old until they found the remains of one a million years old. The fact is that a lack of evidence does not prove that Homospiens was not present in the beginning.

    I believe the omniscient God knows what He did better than the scientists who are limited in their knowledge.
     
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Speculation as creationists use the word is not allowed in the sciences. It is only very early in the process that anything like "speculation" is allowed. Ideas are formed and then they are tested. Repeatedly. Tweaked if they need it. The finished product is the opposite of speculation. It is an idea that has been tested and confirmed many times over. To the uneducated it may seem like speculation. And to creationists tend to resist the simple education that would allow themselves to see that science is not speculation.
     
  6. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    What you seem to mean is that scientists put together models based on the evidence that is currently available. Science knows it has incomplete evidence and that is has to adjust the models as more data is collected. I see theists often critical of science because it adjusts to more data, and this bad habit seems rooted in the pattern of religious stories being interpreted as a stable fact, which of course they are not.

    The fact is humans evolved from hominids and our species is estimated to have emerged about 200,000 years ago given the latest data. Adam and Eve are irrelevant to explaining human origins.


    That's a dangerous thing to assert because you're accusing God of setting up Adam and Eve to fail in the Garden, and so all sin is a result of God designing creation exactly how it is. You can't insist God was caught off guard and fooled at any point in human history because it is omniscient.
     
  7. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Scientists speculate all the time. They talk about what a new discovery might mean to the evolving models they build and rely on. Theists attack science like you're doing by imposing some sort of perfection onto it. Science doesn't claim any such thing, theists do so they can knock down science. This only illustrates how theists fear the power, reliability, and consistency of science in ways that religion can't match.


    Ideas are built into a hypothesis. A hypothesis is an outline of doing a test or experiment. The process of testing follows rigid and precise steps and then reports the results.


    Now it seems like you understand some part of it.
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I have to agree with you that it would be 'accusing God to set up failure' because God forewarned Adam that if he broke the law (The Law of the Land of Eden, so to speak) the foretold punishment was: the death penalty at Genesis 2:17.
    God designed or built in free-will choices in us to show if human kind would listen or obey Him.
    Sinner Satan challenged Job (Job 2:4-5) that under adverse conditions a person (includes us) would Not serve God.
    - Touch our 'flesh...' ( loose physical heath ) and we would Not serve God.
    Job used his free-will choice, even under very-bad conditions, to remain faithful to his God.
    Jesus used his free-will choice, even under very-bad conditions, to remain faithful to his God.
    So, it was No hardship under good and righteous conditions for Adam and Eve to listen and obey their God.
    Thus, to me God was Not caught off guard or fooled at any point.....
     
  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I think that you misunderstood me. Speculation is allowed very early in the process. Once an idea is tested and tweaked and adjusted it is not longer speculation. The ideas that a scientist accepts are far from speculation.


    Correct. Sometimes I use simple words for those that do not understand what a hypothesis is.

    When did I not understand it?
     
  10. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I thought I was quoting who you were responding to. I was confused by the content because i thought you were a creationist.
     
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  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    No problem. Sometimes I try to make things simpler for the creationists. Making concepts simpler does make them a bit wrong.
     
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  12. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    The problem is this: if a God is perfect and omniscient how could it design something that ended up failing?

    Now I know you claim the free-will issue. But as we know there are many people who do obey rules. People who follow rules and are obedient have a certain level of understanding and discipline. They can resist temptation and be self-aware and make right decisions. the question is why didn't God create A&E like this? God should have made them adequately resistant to temptation IF it really wanted them to. As we know they were not resistant to temptation (that God put in the Garden to tempt them) and they gave in. Plus, God knew they would give in as it created them.

    It was a set up. God designed them to fail. Sin was designed, and Christianity blames A&E even though it was on God. Oddly this didn't work, God decided to flood the planet to cleanse it. But as we know this didn't work as sin returned. So then God decided to impregnate a woman for a son that would then be sacrificed to God so the sins of mankind would be paid for.

    Does any of this make any sense for a perfect God? It's a Rube Goldberg theology, but it still doesn't work.
     
    #472 F1fan, May 7, 2021
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Not to mention the flaws of substitutionary atonement.
     
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  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    But the Bible's God is NOT ALL powerful because God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18
    To make A&E resistant would prove they had No choice.
    That would show they had No choice whether to love God or not. They would be automatons, robots.
    I find God did Not put Satan in the Garden, but Satan put himself there - James 1:13-15
    Each person is drawn out by their own desires.
    Eve did Not have to keep on looking at the fruit.
    Even a dog, when food is placed in front of the dog when the master says, "No" the dog does Not continue looking at the food but looks at the Master. Eve freely chose Not to look away from the forbidden fruit.
    So, to me the 'set up' was put in place by Satan the Devil.
    I know of No Christian that directly blames Adam and Eve but blames Satan as Jesus did - John 8:44.

    God flooded Earth to save (deliver / rescue) righteous Noah and family.
    If God had Not taken the action those violent people would have killed off righteous Noah and family.
    That would have meant No one righteous would be left on Earth.
    With No one righteous then there would be No one to fulfill the promise of Genesis 3:15.
    So, removing the wicked was the only solution so that Messiah could come through righteous Noah.
    Yes, of course sin returned but Not everyone became so corrupted as in Noah's day - Genesis 6:11.
    Plus, the passing of time was necessary so that we could all be born and think who we would want as Sovereign over us. - Genesis 1:28. This is why there is the gap between Messiah's arrival on Earth and our day.
    Jesus explains what conditions would be like before his return - Matthew chap. 24 Luke chap. 21.
    Remember: Jesus was Not taking the action of Isaiah 11:3-4 in his day, but much later as per Luke 19:11-15.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    As you pointed out, God cannot lie. That means that there was no Flood of Noah. No Garden of Eden.
     
  16. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    What's powerful about lying? Telling the truth would be part of the character of a perfect God.


    You're contradicting yourself. To resist MEANS a person is making a choice. They are fighting the temptation. the God didn't give A&E adequate resistance to temptation, and God knew it. That's why it was a set up.

    But that's not the case, is it. They were able to make a poor decision and weren't created with adequate wisdom to make a good decision. That's on God.

    I find God did Not put Satan in the Garden, but Satan put himself there - James 1:13-15[/quote]
    Why was there a Satan in the first place except to cause trouble? Who created it? One guess.

    That's why some folks need therapists.

    And Satan existing is on God. God should have known it would cause trouble, yes? Pretty poor judgment.

    It's what they are told to believe. Irony.

    LOL, that really worked to eliminate sin. Another poor judgment on God's part. Killed how many people and all the animals except on the Ark. God should have designed creation to function the way it wanted to. This God sounds like Bill Gates, comes out with a new product and it needs a lot of fixes. Let's not forget that later God had to create jesus to sacrifice to itself to absolve the sins of mankind. That didn't fix much either.



    Then God shouldn't have sabotaged A&E.

    Man that is a very messy theology.
     
  17. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    This makes no sense.
     
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Basic knowledge of biology.

    No. Populations evolve, not individuals. And it's a gradual process. There is not "first human" just like there is no first "french speaker".
     
  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    It's a genetic fact.
    It's not a question of "believing" it. It's a question of accepting facts (or rejecting them in favor of faith-based, fact-less creation myths)
     
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