1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Adam and Eve

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Conscious thoughts, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    6,227
    Ratings:
    +5,115
    Well I'm a biologist so my answer is pretty simple.....we follow the evidence where it leads.

    Can I take that to mean that you view the community of earth and life scientists as "godless"?
     
  2. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,598
    Ratings:
    +633
    Religion:
    Not religious
    Please tell me why you don't accept the evidence that I provided before we can move on. You ask for evidence and evidence was presented so address that first.
     
  3. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,598
    Ratings:
    +633
    Religion:
    Not religious
    Sorry but blaming me for your error doesn't mean that I made the error.
     
  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    26,586
    Ratings:
    +13,366
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    And we keep posting evidence, or steering you to websites, and you persist in ignoring it; so please stop declaring so vehemently that there is no evidence.
    But it's you who ignore contrary evidence and obstinately stick with an unevidenced opinion. You even insist there is no evidence!
    So we can't know anything for sure? Should we just throw up our hands and give up, or try to make the best of things? In the absence of absolute certainty, I'd say go with probability, and maximizing probability is what science does.

    Dogmatic? Well, there are certain well-established facts that are considered axiomatic, and even these are open to new evidence/interpretation, but all the rest is just following evidence, forming hypotheses and then trying to disprove them. This is the scientific method. If it doesn't stand up to testing, it's not accepted. Not dogmatic.

    Climate change? It's not because disbelievers are withholding belief pending evidence. If you feel like a heretic it's because you're withholding belief despite evidence. Once again, your confirmation bias is preventing you from even looking at the evidence.
     
    #524 Valjean, May 13, 2021
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    43,055
    Ratings:
    +25,614
    Religion:
    Atheist
    There is endless scientific evidence for billions of years. As a Christian you should know that it was Christian geologists that first refuted the Noah's Ark myth. There are some rock strata where we can count annual deposit layers. And there can be millions in just one formation.

    There is no scientific evidence for the myths of Genesis.

    First you need to know what scientific evidence is:

    Scientific evidence is evidence that serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be empirical evidence and interpretable in accordance with scientific method.

    That is from Wikipedia, but I can find other science based sources that give the same definition. This applies to all of the sciences not just evoltion.

    Now the rock formation that I spoke of:

    Green River Formation - Wikipedia

    The sediments of the Green River Formation present a continuous record of six million years. The mean thickness of a varve here is 0.18 mm, with a minimum thickness of 0.014 mm and maximum of 9.8 mm.[1]

    That is just one very small part of the geologic column, and it alone spans a time of over six million years.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    26,586
    Ratings:
    +13,366
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    By "speed of development," do you mean technological development? Our technological development took off when we abandoned tradition and faith for science.
    Please! Stop asking for what we've already given you. Stop pretending that you have no evidence!
    OK. How, then, did the natural world come into existence? (not who; how -- what mechanism do you propose)?
    When something happens without any natural cause or mechanism, that's magic.

    I think you have things backwards. It's the atheists that don't believe in miracles; who look for natural, observable, testable mechanisms. It's the theists who propose everything was just spoken into existence. It's the theists who believe in magic.
     
    #526 Valjean, May 13, 2021
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  7. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,598
    Ratings:
    +633
    Religion:
    Not religious
    So are you saying that the universe coming from God is a natural occurrence?
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    34,736
    Ratings:
    +16,470
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    Obviously you didn't read what I posted as it does indeed provide links to numerous scientific studies.

    Human evolution is not a matter of "belief" but a matter whether one is willing to accept overwhelming scientific evidence. Divine creation, otoh, relies exclusively on belief minus objective evidence, which is all fine & dandy since I do believe in Divine creation but not to the point of believing that the Genesis creation accounts are literally how it happened.

    Again, maybe seek out a denomination that is more accepting of the reality that there's more than enough evidence that humans have evolved over millions of years, especially since Christianity should be far more enlightening than darkening.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    18,564
    Ratings:
    +1,358
    Religion:
    Christian
    If you weren't there, you don't have the facts. God was there.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    18,564
    Ratings:
    +1,358
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that is not fact. It is a scientist's concept that is not correct.

    I believe God in His original creation (not Adam and Eve) said it was good. The origin of evil is not Adam and Eve.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    18,564
    Ratings:
    +1,358
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that is illogical. God said they existed and He does not lie so that means they existed.
     
  12. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,598
    Ratings:
    +633
    Religion:
    Not religious
    Or God does not lie because he does not exist.

    Or they don't exist because God doesn't exist.

    A lot of things can be plugged in to fit the desired conclusion.
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    43,055
    Ratings:
    +25,614
    Religion:
    Atheist
    No. You are conflating what the Bible says with what God says. The Bible was written by man. Tell me did God make the world or did man? Actually that is a false dichotomy, but it will do for now. If God made the Earth then the Adam and Eve story is not true since the Earth tells us that there was no Adam. Either your interpretation of the Bible is wrong, or God lies.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,226
    Ratings:
    +632
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    No.
     
  15. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,226
    Ratings:
    +632
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    Why didn’t that happen 100 000 years ago?

    Magic is the application of beliefs, rituals or actions employed in the belief that they can subdue or manipulate natural or supernatural beings and forces…
    Magic (supernatural) - Wikipedia

    I don’t think God used magic. If it was magic, then anything can be called magic.
     
  16. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,226
    Ratings:
    +632
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    Yes, I can believe there is many varves. The problem with that is, there is no reason to believe the varves mean years. It is purely a belief that can’t be proven correct. But, apparently people believe it, because it fits to their world view.
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    43,055
    Ratings:
    +25,614
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Why do you think that it would?

    Technology is not magical.

    And if you read Genesis it is rather explicit that God used magic. One can even identify the types of spells used.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    43,055
    Ratings:
    +25,614
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Actually there is a very good reason to believe that they are annual and there is no reason to believe anything else. You will find this again and again. Endless evidence that supports only an old Earth.

    And instead of using denial you should be asking how they know that they are annual layers. It is not because people want to believe something That is the dishonest act of creationists not of scientists.

    Did you not see the definition of scientific evidence that I posted? I posted it so that you would not repeat the mistake of "no evidence".
     
  19. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,598
    Ratings:
    +633
    Religion:
    Not religious
    Then that means that the universe coming into existence was not caused by God. You don't believe that it's "natural" or "supernatural" cause if God created the universe and you've eliminated the "I don't know" since you claimed that God created the universe. That leaves you with the only option of, God didn't create the universe.

    Just so you won't backpedal, here's what you said.

    Both magic and miracles are supernatural.

    Then I asked you this.
    Your answer was no.
     
  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    26,586
    Ratings:
    +13,366
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Why didn't it happen four and a half billion years ago?
    Why did God wait billions of years even to create man?
    Why didn't the Neanderthals in ice age Europe invent the needle and learn to sew clothing, or maybe invent a bow to hunt?
    Why didn't the industrial revolution begin With Heron's steam engine in 1st century Egypt?

    Progress and invention are multi-factoral and complicated. Many things must come together just right.

    In re: the scientific revolution.
    1. Religion and people of faith worked hard, and very effectively, to suppress progress for hundreds of years.
    2. There was no pressing need, ie: no selective pressure to think critically, abstractly, and learn.
    Yes -- effect without mechanism. The action of speaking or whatever God did to manipulate the universe into materializing the Sun, Earth and living things is magic.

    "Let there be light, and there was light" -- magic.
    "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -- magic.

    "...then anything can be called magic.
    " -- I don't think so. I've never seen magic, you've never seen magic. Nobody's ever seen magic. Every action always has a natural mechanism. Everything happens in accordance with the laws and constants of physics and mathematics.

    People used to think there was magic. When they didn't understand how something worked: day and night, Summer and Winter, earthquakes, disease... they just called it magic, ie: "Goddidit!"
    But when we learned the real mechanisms underlying these phenomena, the magic vanished -- along with the need for a magician.
     
    #540 Valjean, May 14, 2021
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
Loading...