About Christmas.

[Ingledsva]

...

In any case, if Christmas is only a secular holiday, what, then, would you name the Christian celebrations that occur on this day?

For them it is Christmas.

For Pagans Yule, Jul, etc.

I celebrate the turning points of the year, Winter Solstice, and the growing light.

Very important up here in Alaska.

*

 

[Riverwolf]

For them it is Christmas.

For Pagans Yule, Jul, etc.

I celebrate the turning points of the year, Winter Solstice, and the growing light.

Very important up here in Alaska.

*

^_^ I, too, celebrate Yule, though I think of it as a separate holiday, occurring whenever the Winter Solstice is, rather than an artificially fixed date on a calender.

 

[illykitty]

I never celebrated Xmas in a Christian sense my family is mostly non-religious, it was always about seeing family, lots of food, thankfulness and love.

Of course there's gifts too but sometimes I get a bit overwhelmed with all the stuff I get extra each year. I prefer consumables, especially bath items (LUSH). Or maybe a gift card so I can chose what I get... Some people say it's "impersonal" but if they care so much why don't they make the gifts themselves?

Sorry about the small rant. Xmas isn't a religious event to me, at all.

 

[ChristineES]

It's pretty interesting. When I was a child with a non-religious family, we had a rather secular celebration. But still, my mother, who was an atheist back then, would always read Luke Chapter 2. Maybe it didn't start that way, but the Yule celebrations were adapted (used) by Christians to fit in the birth of Christ. There has been a lot of debate as to when exactly Jesus was born. Some hold on to the idea that Jesus was born in December and others came up with different days (I've heard April, among others).

But, to me, the debate isn't about whether it is a religious holiday, but that it is a pretty adaptable holiday. It appears that virtually anyone can celebrate it. I've even know some Jews who celebrate it (in addition to Chanukah). (I mean didn't Neil Diamond, Barbra Streisand and Barry Manilow have Christmas records ) It's a fun day, if you don't let the commercialism overtake you.

 

[Riverwolf]

But, to me, the debate isn't about whether it is a religious holiday, but that it is a pretty adaptable holiday.

You know, consider my argument recanted: that's a MUCH better way of putting it than saying it's one, the other, or both.

 

[Cephus]

Actually, I live in California, just like you. Furthermore, the San Francisco Bay Area. It's probably less the case here then where you are. (Though I live down the street from a rebel Catholic-ish church that still holds mass in Latin. ^_^)

But states are big. One city per state does not a good sample make. A lot of the American population is still made up of rural communities.

I'm aware of that, the fact remains that there just isn't a major religious decoration industry in the U.S. (or China more likely). We can see this clearly by watching retailers nationwide. There just isn't a significant market for the stuff. For most people, their sole religious celebration of Christmas is sitting in a church service, then going home to their Christmas trees and colorfully-wrapped presents while the kids watch Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer on TV. It is a primarily secular holiday to which they have attached a religious service, it is not a primarily religious holiday.

30% of Americans interpret the Bible literally. Pretty large number. In any case, it's still a large number (62%) that thinks America is a Christian nation. Small majority.

Well, they say they do. Whether or not that's actually true in practice is highly questionable. Are they wearing mixed fabrics? Are they eating shellfish? Are they stoning unruly children? Are they killing witches? If not, then how literally can they interpret the Bible? Most people who claim to be Christians are not doing so for religious reasons, but for social ones. They think it's what's expected of them socially. They do it because they think it looks good to the neighbors. They don't go to church (church attendance worldwide is plummeting), they don't read the Bible (we know the Bible is one of the most purchased but least read books), they have no clue what it is that they're supposed to believe, can we call these people Christians when they're just giving it lip service for social reasons? I don't think so. Therefore, I don't buy the numbers given on surveys when most of them aren't serious about it.

In any case, if Christmas is only a secular holiday, what, then, would you name the Christian celebrations that occur on this day?

An anachronism? There are Christian celebrations that go on all the time, that doesn't mean that the dates on which they're held suddenly become Christian. The Pagans celebrate a lot of things too, does that make those dates suddenly Pagan? I don't think so.

 

[Ingledsva]

^_^ I, too, celebrate Yule, though I think of it as a separate holiday, occurring whenever the Winter Solstice is, rather than an artificially fixed date on a calender.

Yes, I also celebrate on the actual Solstice (Dec. 21 this year,) but my celebration, in the old style, takes days. Which perfectly allows me to party with, and eat all the goodies of, my Christian and Pagan friends, as well.

*

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm aware of that, the fact remains that there just isn't a major religious decoration industry in the U.S. (or China more likely). We can see this clearly by watching retailers nationwide. There just isn't a significant market for the stuff. For most people, their sole religious celebration of Christmas is sitting in a church service, then going home to their Christmas trees and colorfully-wrapped presents while the kids watch Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer on TV. It is a primarily secular holiday to which they have attached a religious service, it is not a primarily religious holiday.

That's backwards. It's a holiday that started out religious and gradually adopted more and more secular elements.

Then again, retailers aren't a good judge of culture, just whether something will turn a profit.

Well, they say they do. Whether or not that's actually true in practice is highly questionable. Are they wearing mixed fabrics? Are they eating shellfish? Are they stoning unruly children? Are they killing witches? If not, then how literally can they interpret the Bible? Most people who claim to be Christians are not doing so for religious reasons, but for social ones. They think it's what's expected of them socially. They do it because they think it looks good to the neighbors. They don't go to church (church attendance worldwide is plummeting), they don't read the Bible (we know the Bible is one of the most purchased but least read books), they have no clue what it is that they're supposed to believe, can we call these people Christians when they're just giving it lip service for social reasons? I don't think so. Therefore, I don't buy the numbers given on surveys when most of them aren't serious about it.

Half of religion in general is the communal element, and so half of a religion's entire manifestation is in how the community shapes it, regardless of what they say about it or what old books dictate. Heck, for extroverts, the communal element is the dictator for pretty much their entire behavior. After all, we are a tribal species. It's not just "what's expected"; the community is their entire world; their entire being.

They are quite serious about it, even if they aren't doing it "right" (and I maintain that so far, the only Christian group I've seen "get it right" is the Amish.) Their passion is all the evidence I need for that.

In any case, you asked for numbers, and I gave you numbers.

An anachronism? There are Christian celebrations that go on all the time, that doesn't mean that the dates on which they're held suddenly become Christian. The Pagans celebrate a lot of things too, does that make those dates suddenly Pagan? I don't think so.

Christmas is not a date; it's on a date. Dates don't even exist beyond a socially-agreed-upon metric to measure the passage of time.

In any case, read my response to ChristineES.

BTW, I'm one of "the Pagans." And no, I don't expect you to place any significance on November 7th, despite the fact that that's this year's Samhain.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes, I also celebrate on the actual Solstice (Dec. 21 this year,) but my celebration, in the old style, takes days. Which perfectly allows me to party with, and eat all the goodies of, my Christian and Pagan friends, as well.

*

I'm still learning how things were done in the old days...

 

[Cephus]

That's backwards. It's a holiday that started out religious and gradually adopted more and more secular elements.

Yes and since we're talking about how things are today...

Then again, retailers aren't a good judge of culture, just whether something will turn a profit.

Exactly. This isn't about culture, this is about popularity. Retailers are out to cater to the largest segment of the community and the things that the largest group of people want to buy are the things that will be stocked by the retailers. That simply isn't religious items.

Half of religion in general is the communal element, and so half of a religion's entire manifestation is in how the community shapes it, regardless of what they say about it or what old books dictate. Heck, for extroverts, the communal element is the dictator for pretty much their entire behavior. After all, we are a tribal species. It's not just "what's expected"; the community is their entire world; their entire being.

No, all of religion is about the beliefs, it's just that humans are an inherently social species and we tend to group together based on common beliefs, be they religious or whatnot. It's certainly not their entire being as most people have many different social groups that they interact with, they don't limit themselves only to those who share their religious beliefs.

They are quite serious about it, even if they aren't doing it "right" (and I maintain that so far, the only Christian group I've seen "get it right" is the Amish.) Their passion is all the evidence I need for that.

Most people aren't serious about it, certainly the overwhelming majority don't even pay any attention to what the Bible says, they have some vague notion of a god and they identify with the most popular religion, or one of 33,000 variations of that religion, although most do not demonstrably take that sect seriously either.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes and since we're talking about how things are today...

How things are today should not be separated from how things were.

Exactly. This isn't about culture, this is about popularity.

Oh? I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about religion, something that's inherently a cultural aspect of society and behavior.

No, all of religion is about the beliefs,

Nope. Having actually spent time studying comparative religion, I have concluded that religion, more accurately religious behavior, is ritual (wherein lies the communal aspect), mythology, and philosophy.

The notion that all of religion is about the beliefs is just a bare-bones surface interpretation of what's going on, and thus cannot be regarded as accurate.

it's just that humans are an inherently social species and we tend to group together based on common beliefs, be they religious or whatnot. It's certainly not their entire being as most people have many different social groups that they interact with, they don't limit themselves only to those who share their religious beliefs.

I don't believe I said anything that contradicts that.

Most people aren't serious about it, certainly the overwhelming majority don't even pay any attention to what the Bible says, they have some vague notion of a god and they identify with the most popular religion, or one of 33,000 variations of that religion, although most do not demonstrably take that sect seriously either.

I think we have different definitions of what it means to "take something seriously."