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Abiogenesis

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I’m unconvinced that life could’ve sprang from non life
That's an understatement. You are convinced that it could not. You've chosen to believe the opposite by faith. Why would that be of interest to a critical thinker, who decides what the evidence means AFTER reviewing it? You decided before looking at it and so haven't developed the necessary skills to determine what that evidence implies, because such skills have no value to you even though they're the very skills you use to determine what's true about, say, the restaurants in your area. You decide which ones you consider close, have good parking, good food, good prices, good service, and good ambiance empirically, that is, you examine the evidence and THEN generate a useful induction from it that relatively accurately predicts future experience. But elsewhere, as with your religious beliefs, you don't do that. Belief precedes evidence.
My thought about life: It is, and we’re looking at it.
My thought about God: It is, and we’re looking at it.
My thought about Mind: It is and we’re looking at it.
Those are thoughts? They say nothing to me except that whatever you're looking at, you call thought, life and God.
My thought about substance other than mind: It isn’t.
That's a thought. That's the metaphysical position called idealism, namely, that mind is the fundamental reality and the origin of the rest of reality.
My thought about “physical” laws: There are none.
This is a claim of fact, and already falsified.
My thought about time: It isn’t.
If you're thinking, you're doing it in time. Thought implies a transition of a mental state from a before state to an after state.
another 'scientism cult' true believer, then.
It's you in the cult. It's called supernaturalism, and you're offended at having soft thinking rejected, so you attack rigorous thought. Sorry, but that's never going to change however insecure you are about that kind of thinking being rejected or however often you feel a need to insult others. Why is that? Why do you have an emotional reaction to being disagreed with? Does it make you feel insecure that others are comfortable without god beliefs or religions?
"Believing in" abiogenesis is as illogical as rejecting it. The fact is that we simply do not know how life came into existence.
Yes. Unjustified belief is always a logical error. Believing that naturalistic abiogenesis or intelligent design may account for the first life requires no faith. One of those two, it seems, MUST be the case, and remaining agnostic about it the only sound position possible
God is possible so far as any human can tell. Abiogenesis is possible so far as any human can tell.
Yes, but not equally possible. The naturalistic hypothesis only requires that it be possible for the ingredients of life, which we know exist naturally, to arrange themselves according to the same natural laws that build new life every day in living cells as they grow and divide. The supernaturalistic one requires the existence of an entire other reality inhabited by a god, making it much less parsimonious a hypothesis than naturalistic ones.
There are no probabilities but those your own bias is generating.
This is your bias speaking. I can order those two logical possibilities. The supernaturalistic one is less likely to be correct.
To claim that "God did it" is EXACTLY as plausible as claiming that the mindless forces of nature did it
What "god"? Where? I can show you matter obeying the laws of nature organizing itself into life every day, but gods are nowhere to be found.

But do you know what IS as plausible as a god doing it? A vampire doing it, or Spiderman doing it. They're also MIA.
In fact, to a lot of people, these would be considered to be the SAME CLAIM.
You want to call the laws of nature a god? Why? They already have a name that carries no baggage: the laws of nature.
Faith in God (or science), however, can be a very useful tool to us.
Unjustified belief is always a logical error, a non sequitur, since it doesn't proceed from any preceding evidence or valid argument.
Did Ai happen spontaneously?
You probably know what artificial means.
Your opinion about life inventing itself is profoundly worthless.
It is very likely that naturalistic abiogenesis is correct.

And do you know who else thinks so? Thousands of scientists devoting their lives to unraveling that mystery, and millions of research dollars allocated to support that research. It turns out that the opinion that gods did it is what has no value. Like astrology, it explains nothing and predicts nothing. That meets my definition of a worthless idea.
mind created the Abiogenesis experiments.
Yes, it did. The order appears to be that matter arranged itself into our solar system (material evolution) from an initial hot, dense state, then life evolved from nonlife (chemical evolution or abiogenesis), then complex animal life with brains (biological evolution) and consciousness (psychological evolution) appeared, then intellect evolved in the hominin branch of the great apes (additional biological and psychological evolution), followed by symbolic thought and science (cultural evolution).
There is no proof of God either. The belief that life invented itself is also a kind of faith.
But that's not the claim. The claim is that life MIGHT have arisen spontaneously absent intelligent oversight. I'd go further and say probably happened and probably happens everywhere where conditions support chemical evolution as it true with all physical processes. Things fall whenever the conditions are right. Ice melts whenever the conditions are right. Solar systems and galaxies form whenever possible as best we can tell. Why would this be different?
Evolutionary religion, naturally evolving religion is the scaffolding for revealed religion. God concepts develop over time across all cultures.
You've described additional cultural evolution. That pretty good evidence that they are man's creation.
Abiogenesis as the explanation of the origins of life is a theory and nothing more.
Not even. It's a hypothesis. But it is a much more robust hypothesis than say string theory or the multiverse, which are purely theoretical, both of which are more robust than god hypotheses.
 
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King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
That's an understatement. You are convinced that it could not. You've chosen to believe the opposite by faith. Why would that be of interest to a critical thinker, who decides what the evidence means AFTER reviewing it? You decided before looking at it and so haven't developed the necessary skills to determine what that evidence implies, because such skills have no value to you even though they're the very skills you use to determine what's true about, say, the restaurants in your area. You decide which ones you consider close, have good parking, good food, good prices, good service, and good ambiance empirically, that is, you examine the evidence and THEN generate a useful induction from it that relatively accurately predicts future experience. But elsewhere, as with your religious beliefs, you don't do that. Belief precedes evidence.

Those are thoughts? They say nothing to me except that whatever you're looking at, you call thought, life and God.

That's a thought. That's the metaphysical position called idealism, namely, that mind is the fundamental reality and the origin of the rest of reality.

This is a claim of fact, and already falsified.

If you're thinking, you're doing it in time. Thought implies a transition of a mental state from a before state to an after state.

It's you in the cult. It's called supernaturalism, and you're offended at having soft thinking rejected, so you attack rigorous thought. Sorry, but that's never going to change however insecure you are about that kind of thinking being rejected or however often you feel a need to insult others. Why is that? Why do you have an emotional reaction to being disagreed with? Does it make you feel insecure that others are comfortable without god beliefs or religions?

Yes. Unjustified belief is always a logical error. Believing that naturalistic abiogenesis or intelligent design may account for the first life requires no faith. One of those two, it seems, MUST be the case, and remaining agnostic about it the only sound position possible

Yes, but not equally possible. The naturalistic hypothesis only requires that it be possible for the ingredients of life, which we know exist naturally, to arrange themselves according to the same natural laws that build new life every day in living cells as they grow and divide. The supernaturalistic one requires the existence of an entire other reality inhabited by a god, making it much less parsimonious a hypothesis than naturalistic ones.

This is your bias speaking. I can order those two logical possibilities. The supernaturalistic one is less likely to be correct.

What "god"? Where? I can show you matter obeying the laws of nature organizing itself into life every day, but gods are nowhere to be found.

But do you know what IS as plausible as a god doing it? A vampire doing it, or Spiderman doing it. They're also MIA.

You want to call the laws of nature a god? Why? They already have a name that carries no baggage: the laws of nature.

Unjustified belief is always a logical error, a non sequitur, since it doesn't proceed from any preceding evidence or valid argument.

You probably know what artificial means.

It is very likely that naturalistic abiogenesis is correct.

And do you know who else thinks so? Thousands of scientists devoting their lives to unraveling that mystery, and millions of research dollars allocated to support that research. It turns out that the opinion that gods did it is what has no value. Like astrology, it explains nothing and predicts nothing. That meets my definition of a worthless idea.

Yes, it did. The order appears to be that matter arranged itself into our solar system (material evolution) from an initial hot, dense state, then life evolved from nonlife (chemical evolution or abiogenesis), then complex animal life with brains (biological evolution) and consciousness (psychological evolution) appeared, then intellect evolved in the hominin branch of the great apes (additional biological and psychological evolution), followed by symbolic thought and science (cultural evolution).

But that's not the claim. The claim is that life MIGHT have arisen spontaneously absent intelligent oversight. I'd go further and say probably happened and probably happens everywhere where conditions support chemical evolution as it true with all physical processes. Things fall whenever the conditions are right. Ice melts whenever the conditions are right. Solar systems and galaxies form whenever possible as best we can tell. Why would this be different?

You've described additional cultural evolution. That pretty good evidence that they are man's creation.

Not even. It's a hypothesis. But it is a much more robust hypothesis than say string theory or the multiverse, which are purely theoretical, both of which are more robust than god hypotheses.
I believe the world began in 1980 anyway so it really doesn’t matter. I’m saying that had this time existed at all I’m not convinced that life would have sprang from nonlife
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Nah, spiritual laziness would be accepting being spoon-fed a prepackaged deal without examining it through an objective and critical lens. It's okay to contrast and compare, weight the logic and evidence, etc. You declared other religions/gods inferior without knowing anything about them. How is that not lazy?

Likewise I don't find any of the religions compelling.
I find the God of Love and trust superior to the Pagan God of trickery.

I have found satisfactory answers. Your life is your own business.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I find the God of Love and trust superior to the Pagan God of trickery.
What is "the pagan god of trickery"? An amalgamation of every god concept outside of the one you were indoctrinated as a child to believe? So I was correct: your presumptuous assertions are completely baseless and arbitrary.
I have found satisfactory answers. Your life is your own business.
High five. :praying:
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Dolos is the name of one of the Pagan Gods of “trickery”.

Dolos (mythology) - Wikipedia
Okay, so who is basing their worldview and moral compass on this particular deity? Is this the only depiction of a god outside of your own? There are thousands of religions, thousands of gods, thousands of holy books, etc. as well as thousands of different versions/variations of these religions, gods, and holy books.

But you were lucky enough to not only be born into the right religion, but also the right variation of it. You "know" this because it's what you were taught to believe.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Cool, trickster Gods are always fun.

We have a cat named Loki. A name well earned.

Not Loki but a fine example
cat-child_2.gif
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Okay, so who is basing their worldview and moral compass on this particular deity? Is this the only depiction of a god outside of your own? There are thousands of religions, thousands of gods, thousands of holy books, etc. as well as thousands of different versions/variations of these religions, gods, and holy books.

But you were lucky enough to not only be born into the right religion, but also the right variation of it. You "know" this because it's what you were taught to believe.
I've already told you that I don't believe a number of the claims in the religion that I was born into, but you have me on auto-disagree!
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Sure, but you still regard other faiths as inferior, solely on the grounds that they weren't the one you were born into.
That’s not true, you assume that. I was born into Christianity like my father. When I was a child my Christian father discovered the Urantia Book and became a closet reader of the 5th epochal revelation. Once in a while he would quote the UB that teaches old earth evolution, spiritual unity etc. at 21 I was born again of the spirit and began my quest for God. So, the UB is the foundation of my theological worldview. I don’t attend a Christian church.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that the only scientism I see is the accusation that flies when unsupported claims or bad reasoning gets called into question.
Agreed. On these threads, it has only ever been an objection to rigorous thought. It means, "Your way of thinking excludes my beliefs and I resent that, so I'm going to try to demean it."
The only way to justify a belief is in hindsight.
One justifies a belief by connecting it to evidence through valid reasoning and confirms its accuracy by testing its ability to predict outcomes.
it's completely unnecessary.
Not if one wishes to accumulate only correct beliefs while rejecting false and unfalsifiable ones.
 

freelight

Soul Pioneer
Premium Member
My favorite offer of evidence for abiogenesis:

The theory of abiogenesis was proposed by Thomas Henry Huxley. The theory of abiogenesis states that the evolution of living forms from non-living matter is spontaneous. Example: Meat left open generates flies and maggots. This shows spontaneous generation.

Just read the first 5 pages of the thread. My 2cents - I must admit an agnostic position beyond theory and hypothesis of course, but lean more towards a Creative Intelligence or Consciousness being the underlying motivation of direction behind all life and chemical processes. While apparent non-living matter or particles of substance may seem to have no life of their own, still there is an animating force or vitality inherent with-in atoms or space wherein apparent life potentials are...and may come into existence.

Life itself contains both the unknown and the known, so the appearance of creation or any-thing for that matter, will have both elements present to an observing mind...even as the scientific method continues to find out more. This is the study of life to both theists and non-theists alike. Reality is what it is (or what actually IS), no matter what one's belief or philosophical persuasion or preferential bias is about the reality we know or do not know about. IT is what it is (again, that Is-ness includes all that is knowable and unknowable).

I see myself as more of a meta-theist or theosophist, so Life itself is ever engaging a cycle of involution and evolution of consciousness within all dimensions and densities. Marvel at the mystery, since all you can know or perceive anyways, is what is within your own consciousness. That is all that you can know or theorize about, what presents itself to you and what you continue to DISCOVER moment to moment.

If there is a Universal Intelligence or Animating Spirit present with and/or within all that exists, then that universal MIND would ultimately know of, include and likely govern/coordinate ultimately the movement of all energy, space and matter, even if some matter appears to be 'non-living'(however thats defined). Infinite Intelligence or that Omnipresent Spirit would contain and maintain all activity or non-activity everywhere, although we may not understand or know every detail of the processes involved. The ancient wisdom teachings and esoteric science has always recognized that LIFE involves and evolves itself....and that consciousness itself is the fundamental reality that is all-pervading.




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