@Deeje, I'm quite certain I already explained to you how that works. Why cling to it?10 different Jewish points of view and all are correct? How on earth do you ever come to any solid conclusions about anything?
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@Deeje, I'm quite certain I already explained to you how that works. Why cling to it?10 different Jewish points of view and all are correct? How on earth do you ever come to any solid conclusions about anything?
Because it is weird to me that God would give such explicit laws and information in his word and some people make it their life's work to put a completely different spin on it and cast doubt on the fact that God decided what was to be contained in his own instruction manual without anyone have to explain why it doesn't mean what it says......@Deeje, I'm quite certain I already explained to you how that works. Why cling to it?
Cast doubt?! God forbid, there's never any attempt to cast doubt. There's an attempt, a Torah-based attempt, to be able to show the entire truth of the Torah. We have an oral tradition that shows us that the written Torah is not to always be taken at face value. Do you think an eye for an eye is literal? Is God bloodthirsty? Just one example among many.cast doubt
We do fine. The next term is "Shiv'im v'lo shiv'im v'achat" - Seventy and not seventy-one. Not everything is acceptable. For example, you could have X amount of meanings to Isaiah, but not one of them can conclude that Jesus is the messiah because that contradicts major parts of the Torah. And for conclusions for the Law, we have sets of rules - also passed down from Sinai (being part of the Oral Tradition) - on how to decide what's right.
This is a terrible, irrelevant example. @Jayhawker Soule clearly stated in the OP that he isn't bringing the article for theological debate purposes, only in terms of what info one can glean from the text based on (possible) historical geo-political events. Furthermore, I don't know if you actually read the article, but though a rabbi (Orthodox, apparently) is one of the authors, it's clearly stated in the article that this is written from a perspective that concludes that the Exodus was fiction or almost entirely fiction. That's not Jewish at all.and someone decides that its not correct
I hope that's not your answer to every question. If someone came to you with a question (and forget historical geo-political theories, say this person is asking text-based only) about something that doesn't add up in the Bible, will you tell that person "that's not important, go and [insert something more "meaningful" to do]"? Not important? This is the word of God! How can you say that? Someone is trying to understand the word of God and you say it's unimportant? If this is so, then I'm flabbergasted.are there not more important things to discuss?
Cast doubt?! God forbid, there's never any attempt to cast doubt. There's an attempt, a Torah-based attempt, to be able to show the entire truth of the Torah. We have an oral tradition that shows us that the written Torah is not to always be taken at face value. Do you think an eye for an eye is literal? Is God bloodthirsty? Just one example among many.
This is a terrible, irrelevant example. @Jayhawker Soule clearly stated in the OP that he isn't bringing the article for theological debate purposes, only in terms of what info one can glean from the text based on (possible) historical geo-political events. Furthermore, I don't know if you actually read the article, but though a rabbi (Orthodox, apparently) is one of the authors, it's clearly stated in the article that this is written from a perspective that concludes that the Exodus was fiction or almost entirely fiction. That's not Jewish at all.
I hope that's not your answer to every question.
If someone came to you with a question (and forget historical geo-political theories, say this person is asking text-based only) about something that doesn't add up in the Bible, will you tell that person "that's not important, go and [insert something more "meaningful" to do]"? Not important? This is the word of God! How can you say that? Someone is trying to understand the word of God and you say it's unimportant? If this is so, then I'm flabbergasted.
See? You yourself are gleaning meanings that aren't literally written in the text. I think you would agree that the religion doesn't stand on its own just from the Written Text."An eye for an eye" demonstrates that God's law requires recompense....as you know equivalency was the balance. In fact in law sometimes the recompense was more that what a thief stole.
An eye for eye is simply an example. Unless you literally believe that if you poke someone's eye out, he should poke yours out as well? If so, I could bring another example of proof of the existence of the oral tradition.The other part of that law was "a life for a life", which involved the death penalty...Is God bloodthirsty? No, but his law still required blood to be shed to make recompense for a life taken.
It's not a "Jewish thing". I assume it stems from general interest in history and culture. I don't see a problem considering the theories if you're completely aware that you don't share those views? I'm religious, but I can take up a secularist standpoint for sake of research based on certain findings.Then why raise it? Is this a Jewish thing? A Rabbi who states that "the Exodus was fiction or almost entirely fiction" and whose words you consider to be "not Jewish"....why on earth is this even up for discussion....? Seriously I just don't get it?
I didn't say he doesn't want to debate. I said he isn't debating theology. He's debating scripture from a secularist's POV. That doesn't necessarily mean that he subscribes to that view.This is in a scriptural debate section, but the OP doesn't want to debate....?
Nope. Why? Because the OP is Jewish?I think perhaps it would have been better asked in the Judaism DIR...? Don't you?
Why is it a strawman?Strawman.....of course its not the answer to every question...just the dumb ones when other more important topics could be discussed.
No, still flabbergasted. Why are you skating around what I asked? I've always heard that most Christians deflect or ignore tough questions. I was hoping you'd prove me wrong. Apparently not...You killed that strawman...beat him to death....do you feel better now? or still flabbergasted?
At the time of the Exodus Egypt controlled Sinai and Canaan.
We don't know the nature and extent of this "control"
As always, everything is complicated.
The Exodus from Egypt should not be hard to understand -
1 - most of the time the Hebrews were in a place they called Kadesh (lots of Kadeshes back then)
2 - Jews have nothing to boast in saying they were in slavery
3 - Slavery in Egypt happened at least 3-4 times for millions of Hebrews
4 - mass migrations were common at that time - the whole world was in upheaval for centuries
5 - the greatest and more impossible Exodus is happening right now.
See? You yourself are gleaning meanings that aren't literally written in the text. I think you would agree that the religion doesn't stand on its own just from the Written Text.
An eye for eye is simply an example. Unless you literally believe that if you poke someone's eye out, he should poke yours out as well? If so, I could bring another example of proof of the existence of the oral tradition.
It's not a "Jewish thing". I assume it stems from general interest in history and culture. I don't see a problem considering the theories if you're completely aware that you don't share those views? I'm religious, but I can take up a secularist standpoint for sake of research based on certain findings.
Furthermore, I think the rabbi who wrote the article holds this same position: If we look at things from a purely academical standpoint, based on archeological findings, what does that teach us about the scripture? But I may be wrong. Perhaps he does truly think that, in which case, he is not worthy of the title rabbi.
I didn't say he doesn't want to debate. I said he isn't debating theology. He's debating scripture from a secularist's POV. That doesn't necessarily mean that he subscribes to that view.
Nope. Why? Because the OP is Jewish?
Why is it a strawman?
No, still flabbergasted. Why are you skating around what I asked? I've always heard that most Christians deflect or ignore tough questions. I was hoping you'd prove me wrong. Apparently not...
Do you, or do you not, think it's important to understand God's word to the fullest extent possible?
The Jews say they were never slaves to any man.
John 8:33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
The written text is a history of the Jewish nation and their religion is contained in the written text.
Most Jews believe that Moses received an “Oral Torah” in addition to the “Written Torah.” According to this belief, God directed that certain commands not be written down but rather be passed on by word of mouth from generation to generation, thus being preserved only by oral tradition. However, the Bible account clearly shows that Moses was never commanded to transmit an oral law.
Exodus 24:3-4....
"So Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances, and all the people answered in unison and said, "All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do." גוַיָּבֹ֣א משֶׁ֗ה וַיְסַפֵּ֤ר לָעָם֙ אֵ֚ת כָּל־דִּבְרֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה וְאֵ֖ת כָּל־הַמִּשְׁפָּטִ֑ים וַיַּ֨עַן כָּל־הָעָ֜ם ק֤וֹל אֶחָד֙ וַיֹּ֣אמְר֔וּ כָּל־הַדְּבָרִ֛ים אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה נַֽעֲשֶֽׂה:
4And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and he arose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and twelve monuments for the twelve tribes of Israel. דוַיִּכְתֹּ֣ב משֶׁ֗ה אֵ֚ת כָּל־דִּבְרֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה וַיַּשְׁכֵּ֣ם בַּבֹּ֔קֶר וַיִּ֥בֶן מִזְבֵּ֖חַ תַּ֣חַת הָהָ֑ר וּשְׁתֵּ֤ים עֶשְׂרֵה֙ מַצֵּבָ֔ה לִשְׁנֵ֥ים עָשָׂ֖ר שִׁבְטֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל:"
Then at Exodus 34:27it says....
"The Lord said to Moses: "Inscribe these words for yourself, for according to these words I have formed a covenant with you and with Israel." כזוַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה כְּתָב־לְךָ֖ אֶת־הַדְּבָרִ֣ים הָאֵ֑לֶּה כִּ֞י עַל־פִּ֣י | הַדְּבָרִ֣ים הָאֵ֗לֶּה כָּרַ֧תִּי אִתְּךָ֛ בְּרִ֖ית וְאֶת־יִשְׂרָאֵֽל: "
I do not see an unwritten oral law that had any place in the covenant that God made with Israel. Nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of the existence of an oral law.
But it is man, and not God, who is responsible for this confusion, as Isaiah said....
"Then Adonai said:
“Because these people approach me with empty words, and the honor they bestow on me is mere lip-service; while in fact they have distanced their hearts from me, and their ‘fear of me’ is just a mitzvah of human origin. וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֲדֹנָ֗י יַעַן כִּ֚י נִגַּשׁ֙ הָעָ֣ם הַזֶּ֔ה בְּפִ֚יו וּבִשְׂפָתָיו֙ כִּבְּד֔וּנִי וְלִבּ֖וֹ רִחַ֣ק מִמֶּ֑נִּי וַתְּהִ֚י יִרְאָתָם֙ אֹתִ֔י מִצְוַ֥ת אֲנָשִׁ֖ים מְלֻמָּדָֽה: (Isaiah 29:13)
The oral traditions it appears may have led many in Israel astray....."mitzvah of human origin".
Please show me this proof....not of the existence of the oral tradition, but of its validity.
I am still bemused by the necessity to bring up questions regarding the relationship of Moses, Miriam and Aaron? If the Exodus didn't happen as this Rabbi suggests, then where did the Jewish nation come from? Where did the Passover originate?
Since the topic I am sure would not really interest anyone but Jews, why not just post it in the DIR? Who else would question something that is so clearly stated in scripture?
No, because it is a very Jewish question.
Because you used an assumption that was not true to attack something I didn't say.
Or apparently you have no idea what a strawman is.....?
LOL....skating around what?....your erroneous assumption that you beat to death?
It wasn't a tough question...it was a stupid question not based at all on anything I said or even inferred.
There's "the fullest extent possible"....and then there is the nit-picking, overthinking that the Pharisees of Jesus day were notorious for.
A quick check of the Sabbath Laws for Jews today though is something that really makes me shake my head....but if you think those laws are somehow applicable in this day and age then go for it.....a violation of the Sabbath carried the death penalty under the Law......would God put you to death for using electrical appliances or an elevator? Or writing your name?
Activities prohibited on Shabbat - Wikipedia
You really think that is what God had in mind for the Sabbath?
If you want a meaningful subject to explore...how about those Sabbath Laws?
Wow @sooda, that's some awful lying from someone who claims to stick to the factual truth. Nowhere does the article's author say what you quoted. What you quoted was an anonymous comment!Most Rabbis have known for about 50 years that Exodus is a myth or that it didn't happen the way the Bible says it happened.
Is the Exodus a Myth? - Passover - Chabad
https://www.chabad.org/.../passover/pesach_cdo/aid/1771/jewish/Is-the-Exodus-a-Myth.htm
Exodus myth Most Rabbis are taught in Rabbinical training that the Exodus is a myth. It is only the untrained lay person who does not know this. It is only the untrained lay person who does not know this.
Wow @sooda, that's some awful lying from someone who claims to stick to the factual truth. Nowhere does the article's author say what you quoted. What you quoted was an anonymous comment!
Bring a real source for your claim, because I personally know many rabbis who don't subscribe to your very generalizing claim.
Whether there is evidence or not is completely irrelevant to the fact that you quoted a baseless source and made it seem as though Chabad, one of the most famous Jewish organizations in the world, states your opinion, which they clearly do not!There is NO evidence for the Exodus.. not from Egyptian archaeologists or Israeli archaeologists.
There is NO evidence for the Exodus.. not from Egyptian archaeologists or Israeli archaeologists.
Read Israel Finkelstein.
Exodus: History and myth, then and now | Tel Aviv ...
Newsroomexodus_history_and_myth
We talked to Prof. Israel Finkelstein, a senior researcher at the Department of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and one of the most prominent scholars in the field of biblical archeology today. "The question of historical accuracy in the story of Exodus has occupied scholars since the beginning of modern research," says Prof. Finkelstein.
The Tanach isn't as simple as saying it's "history" and our religion is contained just there.The written text is a history of the Jewish nation and their religion is contained in the written text.
However, the Bible account clearly shows that Moses was never commanded to transmit an oral law.
Please show me this proof....not of the existence of the oral tradition, but of its validity.
The answer to the previous two quotes stems (among other examples) from your Sabbath quote:There's "the fullest extent possible"....and then there is the nit-picking, overthinking that the Pharisees of Jesus day were notorious for.
A quick check of the Sabbath Laws for Jews today though is something that really makes me shake my head....but if you think those laws are somehow applicable in this day and age then go for it.....a violation of the Sabbath carried the death penalty under the Law......would God put you to death for using electrical appliances or an elevator? Or writing your name?
Activities prohibited on Shabbat - Wikipedia
You really think that is what God had in mind for the Sabbath?
If you want a meaningful subject to explore...how about those Sabbath Laws?
I concede that I don't know much about argumentative terminology and may not completely understand what a "strawman" is. However, whether or not I wrongly inferred something, you yourself said some scripture-based questions are stupid and irrelevant. Based on scripture, do you have a list of what subjects are stupid and irrelevant, so that I'll know what not to ask you about in the future?Or apparently you have no idea what a strawman is.....?
LOL....skating around what?....your erroneous assumption that you beat to death?
It wasn't a tough question...it was a stupid question not based at all on anything I said or even inferred.
THERE'S NO EVIDENCE FOR HANNIBAL.
Sorry, never happened.
Absence of evidence = evidence of absence.
Whether there is evidence or not is completely irrelevant to the fact that you quoted a baseless source and made it seem as though Chabad, one of the most famous Jewish organizations in the world, states your opinion, which they clearly do not!
At least most of it. Regardless, explain to me why you did what you did with the Chabad source? It's an insult to a very important Jewish organization, and seriously undermines the validity of any of your arguments.Do you really believe the Pentateuch is history?
At least most of it. Regardless, explain to me why you did what you did with the Chabad source? It's an insult to a very important Jewish organization, and seriously undermines the validity of any of your arguments.
Furthermore, above you quoted Israel Finkelstein. Finkelstein is not a rabbi. Do you have a real source that says that most rabbis of the last 50 years believe that the Exodus is a myth or not?
There is Numismatic evidence for Hannibal.