A way to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith?

[oldbadger]

The truth is hard to swallow. Many can not admit what damage has been done with misguided Faith.

Australia apologized to the Aborigines of this country for what was done in the past in the name of Faith. It all came a bit late, the damage was done and it nearly destroyed and ancient culture that had a lot to offer spiritually.

Just a sec....... Didn't the Australian Government U-turn and take back quite a lot of dedicated land in the last twenty years? If I get time I need to look in to that......

 

[oldbadger]

I think that has been the Message from Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha and Shoghi Effendi as well.

"The gross materialism that engulfs the entire nation at the present hour; the attachment to worldly things that enshrouds the souls of men; the fears and anxieties that distract their minds; the pleasure and dissipations that fill their time, the prejudices and animosities that darken their outlook, the apathy and lethargy that paralyze their spiritual faculties–these are among the formidable obstacles that stand in the path of every would-be warrior in the service of Bahá’u’lláh, obstacles which he must battle against and surmount in his crusade for the redemption of his own countrymen." (Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, p. 148)

What has Bahai done to reduce the desire for materialism amongst its followers?

All the Bahai I ever knew where comfortable middle-class folks.

And it's very sad to discover that Bahai would not run National or World Pension plans for the aged in a Bahai World, everybody would keep working, maybe denying employment to the rising age groups?

What a mess this would all be.

 

[paarsurrey]

Indeed! That's why people cross out 1844 and put 1863 instead I suppose. And before you object to that, what exactly is the "greater part of organized religion" that the UHJ characterized as "paralyzed" in the wake of the 9/11 atrocity? Does that mean all organized religions except the Baha'i faith? And if the other religions were permitted to selectively expunge the less flattering parts of their own histories with a wave of the hand and a nonchalant "oh that was just a few misguided individuals behaving badly of their own accord...nothing to do with the religion itself" - how would the UHJ's characterization then hold up? I'm guessing that there are Roman Catholic, Hindu and Muslim organizations that have - in the great scheme of things - actually done much more for world peace than the relative handful of Baha'i "peacemakers" could possibly hope to achieve. And there are religions - the Quakers for example - who are - unlike Baha'is - explicitly pacifist...surely they are not implicated in the failure of religion to prevent atrocities like 9/11 are they?

" I'm guessing that there are Roman Catholic, Hindu and Muslim organizations that have - in the great scheme of things - actually done much more for world peace than the relative handful of Baha'i "peacemakers" could possibly hope to achieve. And there are religions - the Quakers for example - who are - unlike Baha'is - explicitly pacifist...surely they are not implicated in the failure of religion to prevent atrocities like 9/11 are they?" Unquote.

A positive point to note.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Source please.......

Sorry off to work, will take time to find a link that is not in Baha'i writings. This link has all the news of that day and independant reports.

On the Attempt on the life of the Shah - Bahaikipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

@Jim On another thread you invited me to join this one. I thought that there would be more Bahai writings featured in it, but have not seen that many.

Just sayin'.......

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What has Bahai done to reduce the desire for materialism amongst its followers?

This is a personal journey. The guidance has been given and Baha'u'llah has said and it is addressed to each of us;

"O MY SERVANT! The best of men are they that earn a livelihood by their calling and spend upon themselves and upon their kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds.

The mystic and wondrous Bride, hidden ere this beneath the veiling of utterance, hath now, by the grace of God and His divine favor, been made manifest even as the resplendent light shed by the beauty of the Beloved. I bear witness, O friends! that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled, the proof manifest and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this wise hath the divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you and unto them that are in heaven and on earth. All praise to God, the Lord of all Worlds."

It is a challenge for all, so what will our efforts produce?

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

I was in the process of responding when your post popped up. Apart from feeling stabbed, do you really think it is reasonable for Baha'is to minimize the failings of the first 20 years of the Babi/Baha'i tradition whilst simultaneously playing u,p the failings of other religions dating back centuries? That was the point I was making in response to @Tony Bristow-Stagg. Its not a hugely important point in the overall discussion, but it speaks to bias on the Baha'i side - and since we're talking about learning the "truth" about the Baha'i faith, the question that has to be asked is whether it is appropriate to seek the "truth" about it from an obviously biased and uneven-handed sourced? Anyway...

No - but neither do I find it in many other religious organizations either - not inciting violence and vandalism is not unique to Baha'is. I have not seen the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Arya Samaj or the American Atheists inciting to violence and vandalism either.

Well there's another misconception - if it has a harmful effect on people within the Baha'i faith, it has a harmful effect on society. But the broader harm is that the notion of exclusive revelation is deleterious to human progress...it shows in the Baha'i approach to homosexuality and gender/sexual equality...the faith (based on revelation) is out of step with societal progress and with revelation as the bedrock of moral reasoning, that can only get worse as time goes on. Bahai's are not the only religion in the "quaintly anachronistic" category, but eventually such religions are doomed to irrelevance - and in the meantime, their adherents are pushed, by their own traditions, to the margins of society (think Amish or Mennonite). I don't think that's healthy and in the worst cases, the out-of-step traditions simply cannot co-exist with modern society at all - and sometimes that's worse than harmful - its disastrous - i'm sure that's not going to happen to the Baha'i religion, I'm extrapolating again - but even if its not that terribly harmful its certainly not helpful to society to have sub-groups with monstrously anachronistic moral standards - and that is what becomes of revealed religions.

"do you really think it is reasonable for Baha'is to minimize the failings of the first 20 years of the Babi/Baha'i tradition whilst simultaneously playing u,p the failings of other religions dating back centuries? That was the point I was making in response to @Tony Bristow-Stagg. Its not a hugely important point in the overall discussion, but it speaks to bias on the Baha'i side - and since we're talking about learning the "truth" about the Baha'i faith, the question that has to be asked is whether it is appropriate to seek the "truth" about it from an obviously biased and uneven-handed sourced? Anyway..." Unquote.

A point to ponder by the Bahai people. There being good in some areas doesn't mean that others were not doing the same thing.
Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"do you really think it is reasonable for Baha'is to minimize the failings of the first 20 years of the Babi/Baha'i tradition whilst simultaneously playing u,p the failings of other religions dating back centuries? That was the point I was making in response to @Tony Bristow-Stagg. Its not a hugely important point in the overall discussion, but it speaks to bias on the Baha'i side - and since we're talking about learning the "truth" about the Baha'i faith, the question that has to be asked is whether it is appropriate to seek the "truth" about it from an obviously biased and uneven-handed sourced? Anyway..." Unquote.

A point to ponder by the Bahai people. There being good in some areas doesn't mean that others were not doing the same thing.
Regards

None of this is hidden.

It can be understood in context.

Imagine the stir the Bab raised in a Muslim world ruled by those that longed for total power over the body and mind of all men.

The Bab said the Mind of man was Gods that no man can rule. They were allowed rule of men on earth providing Justice was upheld.

No wonder they tried to exterminate the Babi influence as 10's of thousands flocked to the new Message.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

A point to ponder by the Bahai people. There being good in some areas doesn't mean that others were not doing the same thing.
Regards

You're absolutely right, Paar. There are literally dozens of groups numbering about the same as Baha'is who do very similar charity work.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You're absolutely right, Paar. There are literally dozens of groups numbering about the same as Baha'is who do very similar charity work.

Then the Number is Dozens that includes Baha'i.

We do not offer it is exclusive.

It only came up as people asked what are the Baha'i specifically doing and when answered, it was then said thats no special, others do it.

Yes, we did not say no one else was not doing those things, we just answered questions.

It is not a competition, but it can become a joint effort.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Then the Number is Dozens that includes Baha'i.

We do not offer it is exclusive.

It only came up as people asked what are the Baha'i specifically doing and when answered, it was then said thats no special, others do it.

Yes, we did not say no one else was not doing those things, we just answered questions.

It is not a competition, but it can become a joint effort.

Regards Tony

I don't think you understood, Tony. Oh well.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't think you understood, Tony. Oh well.

Please explain, as I have said my english comprehension is lacking and I do read things differently with a new frame of reference.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes, it has some of those but to a lesser degree than the rest of society, given Baha’is at least “try” to follow the teachings and Laws of Baha’u’llah. In other words, at least we have high standards of moral behavior to shoot for, teachings to live up to and Laws to follow. The rest of society is for the most part lost in the abyss of immorality, and they do not even see anything wrong with it. It is the new normal.

The Baha’i Faith is too small as yet to have any big impact on society.

The truth about the Baha’i Faith has nothing to do with what the Baha’is have done or are doing. The Baha’i Faith is about what Baha’u’llah did and wrote. I find it rather amusing that those who do not like the Baha’i Faith take pot shots at the Baha’is, as if that makes one single bit of difference as far as whether Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this day, the Return of Christ, and the Promised One of All Ages. If every single Baha’i had bad behavior, that would not change the fact of who Baha’u’llah was. All that would mean is that the Baha’is have a lot of work to do on their own character. Shoghi Effendi as much as said that long ago:

“Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.” Bahá’í Administration, p. 66​

"The truth about the Baha’i Faith has nothing to do with what the Baha’is have done or are doing. The Baha’i Faith is about what Baha’u’llah did and wrote." Unquote.

I agree with the above. But then most Bahai friends here don't give a straightforward answer to some little questions. Are they , perhaps, themselves in doubt and are not in consensus about "what Baha’u’llah did and wrote"?

Is that the case with Bahais, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The years from 1844 to 1863 was the Dispensation of the Bab. It was the 19 years that He asked Baha'u'llah for.

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: 'Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayan in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding. Thou dost indeed suffice every created thing and causest it to be independent of all things, while nothing in the heavens or on the earth or that which lieth between them can ever suffice Thee. Verily Thou art the Self-Sufficient, the All-Knowing; Thou art indeed potent over all things." ~ The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, pp. 6-9

That Dispensation had a set purpose to made a distinct break from Islam and to prepare the way for the 'One whom God would make Manifest', Baha'u'llah.

This was the era of the Bab'i and they were still following Muslim Law in many aspects of life and they were turbulent years. After all the Bab was unjustly executed.

When Baha'u'llah Declared, the entire dispensation of the Bab was fulfilled in Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith was born, the Babi became Baha'i and this was the day of the New Covenant,the new Law where swords were turned into plowshares.

"This was the era of the Bab'i and they were still following Muslim Law in many aspects of life and they were turbulent years. After all the Bab was unjustly executed.
When Baha'u'llah Declared, the entire dispensation of the Bab was fulfilled in Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith was born, the Babi became Baha'i and this was the day of the New Covenant,the new Law where swords were turned into plowshares. " Unquote.

Has this been mentioned in Kitab-i-Aqdas, the "Most Holy Book" of Bahaullah? Please

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Source please.......

This is an extract from Baha'u'llah;

"By the righteousness of God! We were in no wise connected with that evil deed, and Our innocence was indisputably established by the tribunals. Nevertheless, they apprehended Us, and from Níyávarán, which was then the residence of His Majesty, conducted Us, on foot and in chains, with bared head and bare feet, to the dungeon of Tihrán. A brutal man, accompanying Us on horseback, snatched off Our hat, whilst We were being hurried along by a troop of executioners and officials." – Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 20.

RegardsTony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"This was the era of the Bab'i and they were still following Muslim Law in many aspects of life and they were turbulent years. After all the Bab was unjustly executed.
When Baha'u'llah Declared, the entire dispensation of the Bab was fulfilled in Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith was born, the Babi became Baha'i and this was the day of the New Covenant,the new Law where swords were turned into plowshares. " Unquote.

Has this been mentioned in Kitab-i-Aqdas, the "Most Holy Book" of Bahaullah? Please

Regards

The law covers the abolition of Holy War.


173. It hath been forbidden you to carry arms unless essential.

Bahá’u’lláh confirms an injunction contained in the Bayán which makes it unlawful to carry arms, unless it is necessary to do so. With regard to circumstances under which the bearing of arms might be “essential” for an individual, ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá gives permission to a believer for self-protection in a dangerous environment. Shoghi Effendi in a letter written on his behalf has also indicated that, in an emergency, when there is no legal force at hand to appeal to, a Bahá’í is justified in defending his life. There are a number of other situations in which weapons are needed and can be legitimately used; for instance, in countries where people hunt for their food and clothing, and in such sports as archery, marksmanship, and fencing.

On the societal level, the principle of collective security enunciated by Bahá’u’lláh (see Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CXVII) and elaborated by Shoghi Effendi (see the Guardian’s letters in The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh) does not presuppose the abolition of the use of force, but prescribes “a system in which Force is made the servant of Justice,” and which provides for the existence of an international peacekeeping force that “will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth.” In the Tablet of Bishárát, Bahá’u’lláh expresses the hope that “weapons of war throughout the world may be converted into instruments of reconstruction and that strife and conflict may be removed from the midst of men.”

In that same Tablet Bahá’u’lláh stresses the importance of fellowship with the followers of all religions; He also states that “the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 240-241

When considering this law, there is also other advice applicable, one being it is better to be killed, than kill.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

So what do you do if it doesn't have a core book or a core founder?

Say Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism people, they for one neither have a core book nor a core founder. I consider them a man-made world view. I am not opposed to them, but it is something having no value for me.
I ask myself :
~ if what they say is supported by Word of G-d?
~Is it supported by Science?

If the answer is no in both case, it is not for me.

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

Say Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism people, they for one neither have a core book nor a core founder. I consider them a man-made world view.

Actually, Paar, I was thinking of Hinduism. We have no founder, and although the Vedas are the core book, we don't put all that much emphasis on them like in Abrahamic scriptures do.

So I'm out then, right?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Vinayaka

I would see Baha'u'llah has offered the Sun as the gift. The same Sun that gives light to all creation.

In turn creation gets from the Sun what it needs and Mankind alone, can pick and choose how much of it they want to benefit from.

I see It is all inclusive, but our choice as to what we exclude.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

@Vinayaka

I would see Baha'u'llah has offered the Sun as the gift. The same Sun that gives light to all creation.

I see It is all inclusive, but our choice as to what we exclude.

Sun shines despite Baha'u'llah, Tony, unless you're saying Baha'u'llah created the sun.

I include all of humanity as extensions of my family, despite their religion, or non-religion. Baha'is, OTOH, exclude homosexuals, shun Covenant Breakers, and want to argue with anyone who disagrees. Still you are unable to see that. Oh well.