A way to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith?

[siti]

Many can not admit what damage has been done with misguided Faith.

Indeed! That's why people cross out 1844 and put 1863 instead I suppose. And before you object to that, what exactly is the "greater part of organized religion" that the UHJ characterized as "paralyzed" in the wake of the 9/11 atrocity? Does that mean all organized religions except the Baha'i faith? And if the other religions were permitted to selectively expunge the less flattering parts of their own histories with a wave of the hand and a nonchalant "oh that was just a few misguided individuals behaving badly of their own accord...nothing to do with the religion itself" - how would the UHJ's characterization then hold up? I'm guessing that there are Roman Catholic, Hindu and Muslim organizations that have - in the great scheme of things - actually done much more for world peace than the relative handful of Baha'i "peacemakers" could possibly hope to achieve. And there are religions - the Quakers for example - who are - unlike Baha'is - explicitly pacifist...surely they are not implicated in the failure of religion to prevent atrocities like 9/11 are they?

 

[Jim]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg Maybe a better way to think about what I was saying is that we are all, unconsciously, partly in the grip of dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth. Not only in ourselves, but under the influence of people we identify with who are promoting those dogmas and claims, sometimes in ways that that we aren't aware of. I don't think that Baha'is are an exception to that. I don't think that I'm an exception to that. I think that we all have work to do on that, and I am working on that in myself. I think that working on ourselves is indispensable, and that nothing else we do can do any good without that. To me, that doesn't mean not to do anything else, to help change what kinds of attitudes and behavior are popular in society, including what kinds of attitudes and behavior are popular in Internet discussions. I see Baha'u'llah saying that we can't do any good without continually working on ourselves, but I don't see Him saying that there is nothing more for us to do beyond that. I see Him urging us to do much more than that, to help change society, in everything we do, in every part of our lives. For me that includes what I do in Internet discussions.

 

[Jim]

That's why people cross out 1844 and put 1863 instead I suppose.

Apart from that unthinking and self-defeating stab, do you have anything else to say about the questions I asked you in that post?

 

[siti]

Apart from that self-defeating stab, do you have anything else to say about the questions I asked you in that post?

I was in the process of responding when your post popped up. Apart from feeling stabbed, do you really think it is reasonable for Baha'is to minimize the failings of the first 20 years of the Babi/Baha'i tradition whilst simultaneously playing u,p the failings of other religions dating back centuries? That was the point I was making in response to @Tony Bristow-Stagg. Its not a hugely important point in the overall discussion, but it speaks to bias on the Baha'i side - and since we're talking about learning the "truth" about the Baha'i faith, the question that has to be asked is whether it is appropriate to seek the "truth" about it from an obviously biased and uneven-handed sourced? Anyway...

How about after 1844 1863? In your research into the history of the Baha’i Faith, did you find any uprisings, protests, or any Baha’i leaders inciting people to violence or vandalism, from 1844 1863 until now? Did you find any of that in the Baha’i Faith, or in any of the factions that have broken off from it since 1844 1863?

No - but neither do I find it in many other religious organizations either - not inciting violence and vandalism is not unique to Baha'is. I have not seen the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Arya Samaj or the American Atheists inciting to violence and vandalism either.

What harmful effects do you think those features of the Baha’i Faith might have had, or might be having on society, outside of the Baha’i Faith?

Well there's another misconception - if it has a harmful effect on people within the Baha'i faith, it has a harmful effect on society. But the broader harm is that the notion of exclusive revelation is deleterious to human progress...it shows in the Baha'i approach to homosexuality and gender/sexual equality...the faith (based on revelation) is out of step with societal progress and with revelation as the bedrock of moral reasoning, that can only get worse as time goes on. Bahai's are not the only religion in the "quaintly anachronistic" category, but eventually such religions are doomed to irrelevance - and in the meantime, their adherents are pushed, by their own traditions, to the margins of society (think Amish or Mennonite). I don't think that's healthy and in the worst cases, the out-of-step traditions simply cannot co-exist with modern society at all - and sometimes that's worse than harmful - its disastrous - i'm sure that's not going to happen to the Baha'i religion, I'm extrapolating again - but even if its not that terribly harmful its certainly not helpful to society to have sub-groups with monstrously anachronistic moral standards - and that is what becomes of revealed religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

This might be a way for anyone who wants to, to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith, if it matters enough to them to work for it. They can do their own research, and use their own judgment, to answer these two questions:

1. Does the membership of the Baha’i Faith include the whole range of incapacities, character defects, and psychological and social illnesses, that are in the rest of society?

Yes, it has some of those but to a lesser degree than the rest of society, given Baha’is at least “try” to follow the teachings and Laws of Baha’u’llah. In other words, at least we have high standards of moral behavior to shoot for, teachings to live up to and Laws to follow. The rest of society is for the most part lost in the abyss of immorality, and they do not even see anything wrong with it. It is the new normal.

2. What effects, harmful and beneficial, has the Baha’i Faith had on the society around it, since it began in 1844 1863?

The Baha’i Faith is too small as yet to have any big impact on society.

The truth about the Baha’i Faith has nothing to do with what the Baha’is have done or are doing. The Baha’i Faith is about what Baha’u’llah did and wrote. I find it rather amusing that those who do not like the Baha’i Faith take pot shots at the Baha’is, as if that makes one single bit of difference as far as whether Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this day, the Return of Christ, and the Promised One of All Ages. If every single Baha’i had bad behavior, that would not change the fact of who Baha’u’llah was. All that would mean is that the Baha’is have a lot of work to do on their own character. Shoghi Effendi as much as said that long ago:

“Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.” Bahá’í Administration, p. 66​

 

[Jim]

... do you really think it is reasonable for Baha'is to minimize the failings of the first 20 years of the Babi/Baha'i tradition whilst simultaneously playing u,p the failings of other religions dating back centuries?

I might understand better now what you were thinking. It might have looked like I was trying to exclude Baha'is from what the House of Justice said about dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth that have been responsible for creating some of the most bitter conflicts. If that's what you were thinking, I can well understand your reaction.

... not inciting violence and vandalism is not unique to Baha'is.

Agreed.

... if it has a harmful effect on people within the Baha'i faith, it has a harmful effect on society. But the broader harm is that the notion of exclusive revelation is deleterious to human progress...it shows in the Baha'i approach to homosexuality and gender/sexual equality...the faith (based on revelation) is out of step with societal progress and with revelation as the bedrock of moral reasoning, that can only get worse as time goes on. Bahai's are not the only religion in the "quaintly anachronistic" category, but eventually such religions are doomed to irrelevance - and in the meantime, their adherents are pushed, by their own traditions, to the margins of society (think Amish or Mennonite). I don't think that's healthy and in the worst cases, the out-of-step traditions simply cannot co-exist with modern society at all - and sometimes that's worse than harmful - its disastrous - i'm sure that's not going to happen to the Baha'i religion, I'm extrapolating again - but even if its not that terribly harmful its certainly not helpful to society to have sub-groups with monstrously anachronistic moral standards - and that is what becomes of revealed religions.

That's very helpful. Thank you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Indeed! That's why people cross out 1844 and put 1863 instead I suppose

The years from 1844 to 1863 was the Dispensation of the Bab. It was the 19 years that He asked Baha'u'llah for.

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: 'Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayan in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding. Thou dost indeed suffice every created thing and causest it to be independent of all things, while nothing in the heavens or on the earth or that which lieth between them can ever suffice Thee. Verily Thou art the Self-Sufficient, the All-Knowing; Thou art indeed potent over all things." ~ The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, pp. 6-9

That Dispensation had a set purpose to made a distinct break from Islam and to prepare the way for the 'One whom God would make Manifest', Baha'u'llah.

This was the era of the Bab'i and they were still following Muslim Law in many aspects of life and they were turbulent years. After all the Bab was unjustly executed.

When Baha'u'llah Declared, the entire dispensation of the Bab was fulfilled in Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith was born, the Babi became Baha'i and this was the day of the New Covenant,the new Law where swords were turned into plowshares.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

God

@Tony Bristow-Stagg Maybe a better way to think about what I was saying is that we are all, unconsciously, partly in the grip of dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth. Not only in ourselves, but under the influence of people we identify with who are promoting those dogmas and claims, sometimes in ways that that we aren't aware of. I don't think that Baha'is are an exception to that. I don't think that I'm an exception to that. I think that we all have work to do on that, and I am working on that in myself. I think that working on ourselves is indispensable, and that nothing else we do can do any good without that. To me, that doesn't mean not to do anything else, to help change what kinds of attitudes and behavior are popular in society, including what kinds of attitudes and behavior are popular in Internet discussions. I see Baha'u'llah saying that we can't do any good without continually working on ourselves, but I don't see Him saying that there is nothing more for us to do beyond that. I see Him urging us to do much more than that, to help change society, in everything we do, in every part of our lives. For me that includes what I do in Internet discussions.

Jim I agree. If we had been Baha'i as asked, there is no doubt the world would be a different place. Baha'u'llah warned us that we are not exempt from the influences of these turbulent times.

I can see no disagreement in your comment.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, I want to see if I'm understanding your point.

I quoted the House of Justice saying that the greater part of organized religion is paralyzed in the grip of the same dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth that have been responsible for creating some of the most bitter conflicts dividing the earth's inhabitants. Vinayaka objected to that, and in response to that objection you brought up the apology of Australia's Prime Minister to Australia's Stolen Generations.

It looks to me like you might be using the Prime Minister's apology as an example of the value of admitting to a problem and that help is needed, as a first step in healing. I don't think that the Prime Minister is the first person who has ever admitted to that problem and the help that is needed. I'm wondering what is the significance for you in a public apology from the Prime Minister, compared to all the public discussions of the problem and the help that is needed, that have already been happening for decades. Maybe you think that an apology from the government might have significantly more impact, as a step towards healing. I have some doubts about that, but however that may be, would you agree that "sorry is not enough"? You called that a "first step." What steps do you think need to come after that?

I don't think that Baha'is are an exception to what the House of Justice said in that letter. I think that multitudes of Baha'is were, and multitudes still are, in the grip of dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth, and that some bitter conflicts have resulted from that. I think that some steps need to be taken by Baha'is, to heal the damage that has been done by those conflicts, and which I think is still a long way from being healed. For example, there is someone very close to me who is still shunning me because of my friendships with some Baha'is and former Baha'is involved in those conflicts. The open feuding has subsided, but those conflicts are still going on, and I'm still seeing discussions on the Internet among Baha'is, and between them and other people, being poisoned by those conflicts.

For me, the importance of this issue goes beyond ending those conflicts and healing the damage that has been done by Baha'is. It's also about the healing influence that the Baha'i Faith could be having, far beyond what it has been having, not only on the damage that has been done by its own members, but on all the damage that has been done to all people by all the ills of society. In its 2005 message to Baha'is, "One Common Faith," the House of Justice said "... the accelerating breakdown in social order calls out desperately for the religious spirit to be freed from the shackles that have so far prevented it from bringing to bear the healing influence of which it is capable," that "the concern of Bahá’ís must be with their own responsibility in the matter," and that "If they are to respond to the need, Bahá’ís must draw on a deep understanding of the process by which humanity’s spiritual life evolves." It commended that letter to the thoughtful study of Baha'is. To me that means that the House of Justice sees an urgent need for Baha'is to study that letter, to improve our own understanding of that process, to free ourselves from the shackles that have so far prevented the spirit of the Baha'i Faith from bringing to bear the healing influence of which it is capable.

ETA:

In more than fifteen years in Internet discussions, I have seen dozens of Baha'is feuding with each other and with other people, contrary to Baha'u'llah's prescriptions and explicit advice from the House of Justice about Internet discussions, but I have never found even one who was found very few willing to have any discussion with me to try to resolve any conflicts of interest between us in a friendly way, which is part of what I think is needed, to help free the spirit of the Baha'i Faith from its shackles.

Jim I think my point here was that we have to see the quote in the context to whom it was given. If a Message was to cover every base to try to prevent all misunderstandings, then these letters would take on enormous proportions. Thus an example was given to show we did have and still do have issues with Fundamental Dogma that we all need to consider. We have to see there is a problem, before we can agree to fix the problem.

I do see an issue is that we Baha'i can be our worst enemies. We should be operating on a level of unity that all would want to strive for.

My personal goal is only to promote harmony on all levels. When this does not result, I have to decide how I played a part in this and modify myself. What I can not do is control that aspect in any other person. Thus in some cases one must choose mainly silence.

To me that means that the House of Justice sees an urgent need for Baha'is to study that letter, to improve our own understanding of that process, to free ourselves from the shackles that have so far prevented the spirit of the Baha'i Faith from bringing to bear the healing influence of which it is capable.

I think that has been the Message from Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha and Shoghi Effendi as well.

"The gross materialism that engulfs the entire nation at the present hour; the attachment to worldly things that enshrouds the souls of men; the fears and anxieties that distract their minds; the pleasure and dissipations that fill their time, the prejudices and animosities that darken their outlook, the apathy and lethargy that paralyze their spiritual faculties–these are among the formidable obstacles that stand in the path of every would-be warrior in the service of Bahá’u’lláh, obstacles which he must battle against and surmount in his crusade for the redemption of his own countrymen." (Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, p. 148)

We must continue our own battle in earnest. Little by little day by day.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

@LuisDantas - I have some more thoughts about some possible implications of what has been said in this thread and elsewhere, about the Baha’i Faith. Consider how representative it is of all nations, races and economic and social classes, and then consider everything it has going against it. It has all the same psychological and social illnesses as all the rest of society. On top of that, it’s allegedly one of those outdated, intolerant and dying monotheistic religions. It arose from the ruins of violent confrontations revolving around its first prophet. Its second prophet set up a perpetual dynasty that it claims was infallible, which to the surprise of all of its leaders ended after three generations notorious for power struggles between family members. As if that weren’t enough, it claims infallibility for its supreme council which, contrary to what is allegedly one of its fundamental principles, is composed of men only, and which it shamelessly insists always will be.

Do the horrors stop there? No! Infamy of infamies, it endorses the Quran as the Very Words of God Himself! A book that, according to some people, forces people against their will to commit the most vile possible crimes against humanity. Wait! There’s more! Even more scandalous than that, it refuses to put a stamp of approval on same-sex marriages, in blatant and shameless violation of its principle of harmony between science and religion, and worse yet, in defiance of manufactured popular opinion about how religious communities should apply journalistic and factional interpretations of infallible psychological and biological research!

I have errands to do. I’ll continue this later.

 

[Jim]

@LuisDantas See my post A way to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith?

If anyone wanted to, they could find all the same excuses and camouflage in the Baha'i Faith for promoting cruelty, vandalism and violence that people have found in Christianity and Islam, especially considering that it incorporates their lore and scriptures, and endorses the Quran as the words of God Himself. Even so, in the last 155 years of its history, no one has ever used it that way. It has a 155 year history of nonviolence that even some of its critics are comparing to the nonviolence of Quakers.

As I already said, I think that anyone who does the research would find that even with all its liabilities that I discussed in my previous post, all of the psychological and social liabilities of all of society all around the world, and even with its monotheism and claims of infallibility for its prophets and its supreme council, it has always had some beneficial effects on the society around it, with very little harm done, and improvements in the society around it have always been slowly but surely integrated into it. One example of that is the incorporation of knowledge about domestic violence into its guidelines for local councils, as it became available. It has always participated in interfaith initiatives, and international initiatives for social progress, including for example environmental issues, women's issues, welfare and education of children, sustainable development, and elimination of poverty; and it has always encouraged its members to do the same.

Even if its claims for its prophets and scriptures are false, and even if it fades away some day, it still shows some good possibilities for what the people of the world might be able to do together, as we are, if we try. All that is needed is for people to see and feel the oneness of our human nature across all the lines between all categories of people including ones defined by ideology. One way I see now for that to happen might be for people to see and feel the oneness in our psychological and social problems.

 

[paarsurrey]

This might be a way for anyone who wants to, to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith, if it matters enough to them to work for it. They can do their own research, and use their own judgment, to answer these two questions:

1. Does the membership of the Baha’i Faith include the whole range of incapacities, character defects, and psychological and social illnesses, that are in the rest of society?

2. What effects, harmful and beneficial, has the Baha’i Faith had on the society around it, since it began in 1844 1863?

My approach* to learn the truth in any religion, be it a Bahai or any-other religion, is primarily to check its core teachings/commandments/issues is from its core book and compare it with the core teachings/commandments/issues with the other religion.
The founder of a religion is not responsible for the misconduct of his followers, as they are themselves responsible for their deeds. If they do go against the founder's guidance they will suffer, if they do good deeds they will be rewarded accordingly.
Regards

____________
*This method was stated by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in a World Religions Conference in 1896 in Lahore in a lecture that was organized on insistence of Swami Sadhu Shugan Chandar of Hinduism.

*"It is necessary that a claim and the reasons in support of it must be set forth from a revealed book."
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

 

[Vinayaka]

My approach* to learn the truth in any religion, be it a Bahai or any-other religion, is primarily to check its core teachings/commandments/issues is from its core book and compare it with the core teachings/commandments/issues with the other religion.
The founder of a religion is not responsible for the misconduct of his followers, as they are themselves responsible for their deeds. If they do go against the founder's guidance they will suffer, if they do good deeds they will be rewarded accordingly.
Regards

So what do you do if it doesn't have a core book or a core founder?

 

[oldbadger]

I did that, and most Bahai's certainly didn't like my conclusions.

This..... ^^^^^

 

[oldbadger]

@siti Well done! Thank you!
How about after 1844 1863? In your research into the history of the Baha’i Faith, did you find any uprisings, protests, or any Baha’i leaders inciting people to violence or vandalism, from 1844 1863 until now? Did you find any of that in the Baha’i Faith, or in any of the factions that have broken off from it since 1844 1863?

What harmful effects do you think those features of the Baha’i Faith might have had, or might be having on society, outside of the Baha’i Faith?

You might be. Have you done any research on the involvement of Baha’is and the Baha’i community in addressing those issues, and other social issues, now and in the past?

I’m not agreeing with all of that, but I’m very happy with your response. Thank you!

After 1863 Bahai continued to spread misinformations about what happened in the earlier years, and continues to make false claims about alleged genocides etc in recent decades.

Bahai has trouble in making statements that are true, sadly.

 

[oldbadger]

You might be. Have you done any research on the involvement of Baha’is and the Baha’i community in addressing those issues, (climate change, growing population, food security, gender and sexual equality...etc. ) and other social issues, now and in the past?

Jim...... why don't you try to tell us about the above?

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes...and then some judging by some of the responses we get in discussions on this forum.

Hmmm! Let me see...upheaval and revolts in Persia in the 1840s, a botched assassination attempt on the Shah, the entrenchment of 19th century Persian values (and anachronistically flowery language in English translations of Baha'i writings) in a religious setting which, despite claims of being thoroughly modern, makes the religion decidedly "old hat" in its outlook - especially, for example in regard to issues like equality and homosexuality. Of course the Baha'i faith is not on its own in that - but it is not that much different than other religions with roots going back a millennium or two. Selective syncretism disguised as "progressive revelation" which perpetuates the decidedly negative and harmful notion that God selectively reveals the exclusive truth to certain individuals - and therefore certain religions - to the exclusion of all others.

Beneficial effects? I believe by and large Baha'is are responsible and law-abiding members of their communities who genuinely have the best interests of their fellow humans at heart. If everyone was Baha'i, the world would probably be a peaceful place, but I'm not convinced it would necessarily be a better place - I don't see how some of the other big issues - climate change, growing population, food security, gender and sexual equality...etc. would be solved. Maybe I'm missing some info there?

On balance, whilst being kind and compassionate to others is very important, I don't think that is enough - and revelation, as far as I can tell, is the enemy of reason...and that would probably sink a genuinely global-scale Baha'i community of 15 billion...not that that's ever going to happen but if you want to know how well-fitted a religion with world-encompassing ambitions is to the task it has set itself, you have to extrapolate. I honestly cannot see it working - even hypothetically.

"and revelation, as far as I can tell, is the enemy of reason" Unquote.

It is a wrong notion.
In the matters of ethical, moral and especially spiritual domains, there is no other source of guidance except the Word of G-d, if it is:

~ In original , pristine and secure form
~ it has not been corrupted by the debris of time by the vested humans.

And in the secular matters it does not intervene.

Bahaullah, as far as I can understand from the posts of Bahai friends here, claims of inspiration but not Revelation.

Regards

 

[oldbadger]

In regards sustainable development the Baha’i Faith has made various contributions to global discourse at an international level.

Summoning Our Common Will: A Baha’i Contribution to the United Nations Global Development Agenda

Can you name the other 23 religions which produced this contribution along with Bahai?

 

[oldbadger]

It was found they acted alone and did it to revenge the execution of the Bab. Meanwhile this act cause 10's of thousands of innocent Babi to be slaughtered.

Regards Tony

Source please.......

 

[oldbadger]

This is so mean spirited and false, not to mention arrogant. Little wonder people have difficulty giving the Baha'i faith legitimacy.

I wonder who they wrote to exactly, and to what addresses?
I wonder if it's possible to see copies of these letters?

I should like to know how many replies they received and the content of same.