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A way to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith?

Jim

Nets of Wonder
This might be a way for anyone who wants to, to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith, if it matters enough to them to work for it. They can do their own research, and use their own judgment, to answer these two questions:

1. Does the membership of the Baha’i Faith include the whole range of incapacities, character defects, and psychological and social illnesses, that are in the rest of society?

2. What effects, harmful and beneficial, has the Baha’i Faith had on the society around it, since it began in 1844 1863?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
1. Does the membership of the Baha’i Faith include the whole range of incapacities, character defects, and psychological and social illnesses, that are in the rest of society?

I am not sure that I understood what you mean. Are you claiming that somehow the Bahais are entirely spared from some subset of those?

Because if so, then you should acknowledge that it is a very bold claim. It goes way beyond a simple (and possibly well justified) statement that the Bahai Faith knows how to deal with (or heal) some, many or even all of those situations.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
1. Does the membership of the Baha’i Faith include the whole range of incapacities, character defects, and psychological and social illnesses, that are in the rest of society?
Yes...and then some judging by some of the responses we get in discussions on this forum.

2. What effects, harmful and beneficial, has the Baha’i Faith had on the society around it, since it began in 1844?
Hmmm! Let me see...upheaval and revolts in Persia in the 1840s, a botched assassination attempt on the Shah, the entrenchment of 19th century Persian values (and anachronistically flowery language in English translations of Baha'i writings) in a religious setting which, despite claims of being thoroughly modern, makes the religion decidedly "old hat" in its outlook - especially, for example in regard to issues like equality and homosexuality. Of course the Baha'i faith is not on its own in that - but it is not that much different than other religions with roots going back a millennium or two. Selective syncretism disguised as "progressive revelation" which perpetuates the decidedly negative and harmful notion that God selectively reveals the exclusive truth to certain individuals - and therefore certain religions - to the exclusion of all others.

Beneficial effects? I believe by and large Baha'is are responsible and law-abiding members of their communities who genuinely have the best interests of their fellow humans at heart. If everyone was Baha'i, the world would probably be a peaceful place, but I'm not convinced it would necessarily be a better place - I don't see how some of the other big issues - climate change, growing population, food security, gender and sexual equality...etc. would be solved. Maybe I'm missing some info there?

On balance, whilst being kind and compassionate to others is very important, I don't think that is enough - and revelation, as far as I can tell, is the enemy of reason...and that would probably sink a genuinely global-scale Baha'i community of 15 billion...not that that's ever going to happen but if you want to know how well-fitted a religion with world-encompassing ambitions is to the task it has set itself, you have to extrapolate. I honestly cannot see it working - even hypothetically.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Oh. I truly misunderstood!

Yes, of course, the Bahais are inclusive enough and numerous enough to at least eventually include people with all sorts of shortcomings - or very close to that.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@siti Well done! Thank you!
Hmmm! Let me see...upheaval and revolts in Persia in the 1840s, a botched assassination attempt on the Shah ...
How about after 1844 1863? In your research into the history of the Baha’i Faith, did you find any uprisings, protests, or any Baha’i leaders inciting people to violence or vandalism, from 1844 1863 until now? Did you find any of that in the Baha’i Faith, or in any of the factions that have broken off from it since 1844 1863?
the entrenchment of 19th century Persian values (and anachronistically flowery language in English translations of Baha'i writings) in a religious setting which, despite claims of being thoroughly modern, makes the religion decidedly "old hat" in its outlook - especially, for example in regard to issues like equality and homosexuality. Of course the Baha'i faith is not on its own in that - but it is not that much different than other religions with roots going back a millennium or two. Selective syncretism disguised as "progressive revelation" which perpetuates the decidedly negative and harmful notion that God selectively reveals the exclusive truth to certain individuals - and therefore certain religions - to the exclusion of all others.
What harmful effects do you think those features of the Baha’i Faith might have had, or might be having on society, outside of the Baha’i Faith?
I don't see how some of the other big issues - climate change, growing population, food security, gender and sexual equality...etc. would be solved. Maybe I'm missing some info there?
You might be. Have you done any research on the involvement of Baha’is and the Baha’i community in addressing those issues, and other social issues, now and in the past?
On balance, whilst being kind and compassionate to others is very important, I don't think that is enough - and revelation, as far as I can tell, is the enemy of reason...and that would probably sink a genuinely global-scale Baha'i community of 15 billion...not that that's ever going to happen but if you want to know how well-fitted a religion with world-encompassing ambitions is to the task it has set itself, you have to extrapolate. I honestly cannot see it working - even hypothetically.
I’m not agreeing with all of that, but I’m very happy with your response. Thank you!
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't see how some of the other big issues - climate change, growing population, food security, gender and sexual equality...etc. would be solved. Maybe I'm missing some info there?

In regards sustainable development the Baha’i Faith has made various contributions to global discourse at an international level.

Summoning Our Common Will: A Baha’i Contribution to the United Nations Global Development Agenda

The Baha’i Faith is strong on international cooperation and effective models of governance. This is what’s required to address the urgent needs of the planet.

With a network of over 20,000 assemblies nationally and locally worldwide with excellent representation of men and women we are a good model of the equality of men and women.

Although the Baha’i Faith has laws in regards marriage being between a man and a woman applicable only to Baha’is our attitudes towards those with a same sex orientation is one of equality.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
... and revelation, as far as I can tell, is the enemy of reason ...
You might have missed something there, in your research on the Baha’i community. One way to check on that, if you want to, might be to read a few of the documents at www.bic.org, and see how much you think the reasoning of Baha’is is being undermined by their trust in Bahá’u’lláh.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
... the decidedly negative and harmful notion that God selectively reveals the exclusive truth to certain individuals - and therefore certain religions - to the exclusion of all others.
The Universal House of Justice explicitly addressed that issue in a message to the world's religious leaders in the aftermath of 9/11:

"Other segments of society embrace the implications of the oneness of humankind, not only as the inevitable next step in the advancement of civilization, but as the fulfilment of lesser identities of every kind that our race brings to this critical moment in our collective history. Yet, the greater part of organized religion stands paralyzed at the threshold of the future, gripped in those very dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth that have been responsible for creating some of the most bitter conflicts dividing the earth’s inhabitants."
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Yes, of course, the Bahais are inclusive enough and numerous enough to at least eventually include people with all sorts of shortcomings - or very close to that.
Incidentally, maybe you can appreciate that there might be more to see in this than possible merits of the Baha'i Faith. Not to say that I wasn't doing it for that. I'm not really sure what my motives were. It might also be to practice better friendliness towards Baha'is, which has always been one of my worst failings in Internet discussions. Apart from that, I've never seen PR for the Baha'i Faith as part of what I want to do in Internet discussions. If I tried to do that, I might do it as badly as anyone else, or even worse. However that may be, what I think that any person will find who does the research, is that the Baha'i community from 1844 1863 until now has always had a beneficial influence on the rest of society, with little or no harm done outside of the community. At the same time, improvements that are happening outside of the community are slowly but surely being integrated into it. Considering how well it reflects all the defects in all people and all of society, that illustrates what might be possible for the whole world, regardless of any possible role in it for the Baha'i Faith itself.

That reminds me of something I said in another thread, one place to look for our common humanity might be in our shortcomings.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How about after 1844? In your research into the history of the Baha’i Faith, did you find any uprisings, protests, or any Baha’i leaders inciting people to violence or vandalism, from 1844 until now?

The upheavals with the Babi's were after 1844 and it was the assassination attempt by 3 Babi's that caused much trouble for Baha'u'llah that put him in prison where he received His Revelation.

It was found they acted alone and did it to revenge the execution of the Bab. Meanwhile this act cause 10's of thousands of innocent Babi to be slaughtered.

Regards Tony
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
The upheavals with the Babi's were after 1844 and it was the assassination attempt by 3 Babi's that caused much trouble for Baha'u'llah that put him in prison where he received His Revelation.

It was found they acted alone and did it to revenge the execution of the Bab. Meanwhile this act cause 10's of thousands of innocent Babi to be slaughtered.

Regards Tony
Thank you for pointing out that blunder. The date I should have chosen is 1863.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The Universal House of Justice explicitly addressed that issue in a message to the world's religious leaders in the aftermath of 9/11:

Yet, the greater part of organized religion stands paralyzed at the threshold of the future, gripped in those very dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth that have been responsible for creating some of the most bitter conflicts dividing the earth’s inhabitants."

This is so mean spirited and false, not to mention arrogant. Little wonder people have difficulty giving the Baha'i faith legitimacy.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is so mean spirited and false, not to mention arrogant. Little wonder people have difficulty giving the Baha'i faith legitimacy.

The truth is hard to swallow. Many can not admit what damage has been done with misguided Faith.

Australia apologized to the Aborigines of this country for what was done in the past in the name of Faith. It all came a bit late, the damage was done and it nearly destroyed and ancient culture that had a lot to offer spiritually.

The healing begins with the first step and the first step is always admiting to the problem and that help is needed.

It matters not how good the remedy is until the first step is taken.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The truth is hard to swallow. Many can not admit what damage has been done with misguided Faith.

Australia apologized to the Aborigines of this country for what was done in the past in the name of Faith. It all came a bit late, the damage was done and it nearly destroyed and ancient culture that had a lot to offer spiritually.

The healing begins with the first step and the first step is always admiting to the problem and that help is needed.

It matters not how good the remedy is until the first step is taken.

Regards Tony

Tony, I know some faiths have done a lot of harm, (not just faiths but political ideologies) particularly the evangelizing ones like you mention, (Baha'i itself falls into that category, but they don't see it.) and the radical Muslims who use the sword. What I object to is the massive sweeping generalisations your UHJ does to characterise other faiths than Baha'i. It would be kind of them to occasionally speak in specifics rather 'us versus them' sentiments.

You will now get defensive.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You will now get defensive

Not at all. You are free to put that view forward.

History and all the Baha'i Writings show the statements are directed at those that it is applicable to. Why take offense, unless it is applicable to ones own self?

Some of your previous accusations directed to me were taken on board, some of it was applicable and change was required.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Not at all. You are free to put that view forward.

History and all the Baha'i Writings show the statements are directed at those that it is applicable to. Why take offense, unless it is applicable to ones own self?

Some of your previous accusations directed to me were taken on board, some of it was applicable and change was required.

Regards Tony

Accusations, eh? Not defensive. How about referring to them as suggestions? By following my suggestions, perhaps you were able to stay in this forum.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
The truth is hard to swallow. Many can not admit what damage has been done with misguided Faith.

Australia apologized to the Aborigines of this country for what was done in the past in the name of Faith. It all came a bit late, the damage was done and it nearly destroyed and ancient culture that had a lot to offer spiritually.

The healing begins with the first step and the first step is always admiting to the problem and that help is needed.

It matters not how good the remedy is until the first step is taken.

Regards Tony
Tony, I want to see if I'm understanding your point.

I quoted the House of Justice saying that the greater part of organized religion is paralyzed in the grip of the same dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth that have been responsible for creating some of the most bitter conflicts dividing the earth's inhabitants. Vinayaka objected to that, and in response to that objection you brought up the apology of Australia's Prime Minister to Australia's Stolen Generations.

It looks to me like you might be using the Prime Minister's apology as an example of the value of admitting to a problem and that help is needed, as a first step in healing. I don't think that the Prime Minister is the first person who has ever admitted to that problem and the help that is needed. I'm wondering what is the significance for you in a public apology from the Prime Minister, compared to all the public discussions of the problem and the help that is needed, that have already been happening for decades. Maybe you think that an apology from the government might have significantly more impact, as a step towards healing. I have some doubts about that, but however that may be, would you agree that "sorry is not enough"? You called that a "first step." What steps do you think need to come after that?

I don't think that Baha'is are an exception to what the House of Justice said in that letter. I think that multitudes of Baha'is were, and multitudes still are, in the grip of dogmas and claims of privileged access to truth, and that some bitter conflicts have resulted from that. I think that some steps need to be taken by Baha'is, to heal the damage that has been done by those conflicts, and which I think is still a long way from being healed. For example, there is someone very close to me who is still shunning me because of my friendships with some Baha'is and former Baha'is involved in those conflicts. The open feuding has subsided, but those conflicts are still going on, and I'm still seeing discussions on the Internet among Baha'is, and between them and other people, being poisoned by those conflicts.

For me, the importance of this issue goes beyond ending those conflicts and healing the damage that has been done by Baha'is. It's also about the healing influence that the Baha'i Faith could be having, far beyond what it has been having, not only on the damage that has been done by its own members, but on all the damage that has been done to all people by all the ills of society. In its 2005 message to Baha'is, "One Common Faith," the House of Justice said "... the accelerating breakdown in social order calls out desperately for the religious spirit to be freed from the shackles that have so far prevented it from bringing to bear the healing influence of which it is capable," that "the concern of Bahá’ís must be with their own responsibility in the matter," and that "If they are to respond to the need, Bahá’ís must draw on a deep understanding of the process by which humanity’s spiritual life evolves." It commended that letter to the thoughtful study of Baha'is. To me that means that the House of Justice sees an urgent need for Baha'is to study that letter, to improve our own understanding of that process, to free ourselves from the shackles that have so far prevented the spirit of the Baha'i Faith from bringing to bear the healing influence of which it is capable.

ETA:

In more than fifteen years in Internet discussions, I have seen dozens of Baha'is feuding with each other and with other people, contrary to Baha'u'llah's prescriptions and explicit advice from the House of Justice about Internet discussions, but I have never found even one who was found very few willing to have any discussion with me to try to resolve any conflicts of interest between us in a friendly way, which is part of what I think is needed, to help free the spirit of the Baha'i Faith from its shackles.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Accusations, eh? Not defensive. How about referring to them as suggestions? By following my suggestions, perhaps you were able to stay in this forum.

Wheras you are a teacher, you are talking to a person that flunked english. If you hang on words I offer, fault will always be found. It has taken many years of writing to get even a little better with word use. There was no motive of any ill intent, in that reply.

How about I just say thank you for some advice you have offered, it was helpful. I hope likewise you have gained from our exchanges in some way.

Regards Tony
 
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