A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[Dawnofhope]

OK, remove one quote, you are still left with two.

I can’t imagine you being too interested in an explanation of any Baha’i writings lol

 

[Marcion]

Just as I expected. This is how Baha'i translation practice works:

a- Do not translate problematic passages from the scripture.
b- If you do translate those passages, water them down.
c- If a non-Baha'i translates those passages shoot the messenger without making the slightest effort of providing a correct translation.

Now lets take a closer look at those passages that Tony claims are not authorized

Thank you kindly @spirit_of_dawn for those informative quotes and links, it does illuminate where all the silence comes from when I advance the idea that only human Dharma can bring unity (and peace) and no merger into "one human faith or religion".

It is a very different world the Baha'i seem to be wishing for than where the world is actually heading in the more developed nations and now I am also not surprised that the Baha'i frown on this development of less religion and more spiritual paths. They seem to interpret such developments as disunity (it reminds me al lot of Islam in that way).

At the same time I feel a bit shocked that friendly people such as @Jim, @adrian009 and @Tony Bristow-Stagg can support such an aspect of the ideology. Of course I know very little about the Baha'i faith so there must surely also be some more attractive sides to it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I’ve read all the posts again, looking for ideas about changes that are needed in popular attitudes and behavior, and what any of us might be able to do to help.

Changes needed in popular attitudes and behavior:

1. Stop trying to discredit other people’s religions and their followers.
2. Stop arguing with people when they’re trying to discredit us and our religion.
3. Move away from an adversarial attitude towards people across religious dividing lines, towards working side by side with them, as friends and companions, to help make the world better for all people everywhere, ignoring those lines.
4. Stop playing “my religion is better than your religion.”
5. Stop aimlessly and endlessly debating about ideologies.
6. Stop trying to proclaim and teach our religion to people against their will.
7. Stop painting groups of people with one broad stroke.
8. Allow each to see reality and God in their own way.
9. Approach interfaith dialogue with a desire to learn new things from others.
10. Cultivate both within ourselves and in the social spaces around us a much more profound sense of the interconnectedness of humanities religious experience.

How any of us might be able to help:

1. Community building at a grassroots levels.
2. Remember we’re all on a journey and be patient and kind.
3. Continual efforts to practice, ourselves, the changes that are needed in popular attitudes and behavior.
4. Learn to be better friends with more people.
5. Bring these issues up for discussion.
6. Remember our own imperfections

That brings me to page 8. I need to go to bed now.

I see from another thread you’ve decided not post in this thread anymore as you are unhappy with its direction. While I agree with much of what you’ve said I doubt if I can or should adhere to it in a way you would want.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you kindly @spirit_of_dawn for those informative quotes and links, it does illuminate where all the silence comes from when I advance the idea that only human Dharma can bring unity (and peace) and no merger into "one human faith or religion".

It is a very different world the Baha'i seem to be wishing for than where the world is actually heading in the more developed nations and now I am also not surprised that the Baha'i frown on this development of less religion and more spiritual paths. They seem to interpret such developments as disunity (it reminds me al lot of Islam in that way).

At the same time I feel a bit shocked that friendly people such as @Jim, @adrian009 and @Tony Bristow-Stagg can support such an aspect of the ideology. Of course I know very little about the Baha'i faith so there must surely also be some more attractive sides to it.

I don’t know too much about your faith @Marcion but I would rather hear from you about what you believed or from reliable sources. It’s easy to take what another says out of context and assign meanings that were never intended.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Shoot the messenger. That is the Baha'i method. Instead of responding to to the argument they attack the messenger. Wow that's pathetic.

However what Baha'is will never tell you is that this conversion is not meant to come by peaceful means but rather in a genocidal form.

You could prove you are a reliable carrier of truth quite easily.

Baha'u'llah revealed His new Message starting in 1863, with the Book of Laws being revealed not long after. Thus you have 155 years of Baha'i's practicing their Faith to quote any incident where a Baha'i killed anybody in Faith. that should be easy for you, as you have mentioned Baha'i practice genocide.

My experience is that mostly you will find governments of the world thanking Baha'i for their efforts for peace. I say mostly, as unjust oppressive governments still exist who will offer the same rhetoric you have.

May peace always be with you and we will offer you naught but peace and unity. Regards Tony

 

[Marcion]

I don’t know too much about your faith @Marcion but I would rather hear from you about what you believed or from reliable sources. It’s easy to take what another says out of context and assign meanings that were never intended.

I cannot believe that the 'context' (as you say) will change my mind very much on the meaning of the text. But do please keep trying if you think it will.

As I have explained a number of times in this thread, I have no faith or religion but try to follow the human Dharma as everyone in this world more or less does who seeks to do good, avoids doing bad and offers the colours of their mind to God or Mahanirvana.

Perhaps this will also make you realise why I don't hate or oppose anyone's path in life (whether a faith or no faith) as long as it does not harm anyone or society as a whole. You cannot unify people under the idea of "one faith", it is not desirable and it will not work. But people are social beings, so collective practices can support and inspire them to keep following Dharma (again: Dharma is not a faith, it is a universal human thing, you are also trying to follow Dharma).

 

[Dawnofhope]

I cannot believe that the 'context' (as you say) will change my mind very much on the meaning of the text. But do please keep trying if you think it will.

As I have explained a number of times in this thread, I have no faith or religion but try to follow the human Dharma as everyone in this world more or less does who seeks to do good, avoids doing bad and offers the colours of their mind to God or Mahanirvana.

Perhaps this will also make you realise why I don't hate or oppose anyone's path (whether a faith or no faith) as long as it does not harm anyone or society as a whole.

That is excellent. Perhaps the following statement presented at the United Nations will help you realise the Baha’i Faith upholds freedom of belief and religion.

The Baha'i International Community presented a statement, entitled "Belief and Tolerance: Lights Amidst the Darkness," for the International Consultative Conference on School Education in relation with Freedom of Religion and Belief, Tolerance and Non-discrimination, a United Nations conference held in Madrid on 23-25 November 2001. The full text of the statement follows below:

Baha'is issue statement on education and freedom of belief

 

[Vinayaka]

I’ve never seen Momen in that way.

It was Momen's comments on Hinduism that drew me into this whole darn mess. lol. Something about Baha'i duty to update and revise Hinduism, if I remember correctly.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It was Momen's comments on Hinduism that drew me into this whole darn mess. lol. Something about Baha'i duty to update and revise Hinduism, if I remember correctly.

That is true lol.

He made a statement to the effect that the Baha’is would unite Hinduism. It seemed preposterous then and it looks even more preposterous now.

There’s a wealth of material on Hinduism out there and plenty of Hindus to talk to. I don’t believe Baha’is actually need a book in Hinduism written by Baha’is.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I can’t imagine you being too interested in an explanation of any Baha’i writings lol

Of course, I am not interested in monotheist blah-blah on command of a non-existent Sky-Daddy. I am an atheist. I do it for fun. See the :big grin:.

That is excellent. Perhaps the following statement presented at the United Nations will help you realise the Baha’i Faith upholds freedom of belief and religion.

We know. All those who are looking for converts will support the so-called 'freedom of belief and religion'. Let the birds alight, then you will keep them in a cage. Because Bahaullah was a manifestation of God and nothing other than what he said can be correct. For example, LGBTQ are against the order of God.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

That is excellent. Perhaps the following statement presented at the United Nations will help you realise the Baha’i Faith upholds freedom of belief and religion.

The Baha'i International Community presented a statement, entitled "Belief and Tolerance: Lights Amidst the Darkness," for the International Consultative Conference on School Education in relation with Freedom of Religion and Belief, Tolerance and Non-discrimination, a United Nations conference held in Madrid on 23-25 November 2001. The full text of the statement follows below:

1- Yes, the so called Baha'i claim of freedom of religion/belief/etc. Has anyone introduced the concept of covenant breakers here? No?! If you actively oppose Baha'i leadership you are labelled as a covenant-breaker. This would mean you are separated from your loved ones, parents, children, spouse, and any other Baha'i associates. No Baha'i is ever allowed to associate or speak with you or else they will be given the same treatment... so called Freedom of Religion and Belief, Tolerance and Non-discrimination...

2- Did you know Baha'u'llah would refer to his deniers and non-Baha'is as donkeys, pigs, and ********:
Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ******** - Baha'i principles
The Quotes mentioned here are from authentic Baha'i books that they will simply not translate to English. (Typical Baha'i response: that is an anti-Baha'i hate cite blah blah)

3- Any Baha'i that perceives any form of hatred toward Baha'u'llah is obliged under Baha'i law to shun that person:

“Shun any man in whom you perceive enmity for this Servant, though he may appear in the garb of piety of the former and later people, or may arise to the worship of the two worlds,” `Abdu’l-Bahā, Bahā’ī World Faith—Selected Writings of Bahā’u’llāh and `Abdu’l-Bahā (`Abdu’l-Bahā’s Section Only), p. 431.


“‘Therefore, it is incumbent upon all the friends of God to shun any person in whom they perceive the emanation of hatred for the Glorious Beauty of Abhā, though he may quote all the Heavenly Utterances and cling to all the Books.’ He continues—Glorious be His Name!—‘Protect yourselves with utmost vigilance, lest you be entrapped in the snare of deception and fraud. This is the advice of the Pen of Destiny,’ `Abdu’l-Bahā, Bahā’ī World Faith—Selected Writings of Bahā’u’llāh and `Abdu’l-Bahā (`Abdu’l-Bahā’s Section Only), pp. 430–431.

The two aforementioned quotes are both authorized Baha'i translations.

4- Imagine someone claiming tolerance and non-discrimination but heaping all these statements against a certain group of people:

• “defilement of evil passions”
• “satanic deeds”
• “shameful sexual aberration”
• “immoral conduct” or “Immorality” or “abhorrent”
• “wrong” or “corruptive” or sometimes borderline insanity: “conduct borders on insanity”
• “being against nature”
• an affliction and great burden: “afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul”
• “handicap” or “aberration” or “abnormality”
• an act that is a disgrace to Baha’ism: “disgracing the Cause”
• “cause of suffering”
• unhealthy use of the sex impulse: “Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse”
• A problem whose solution is this: “with the help of doctors, by prayer and meditation, by self-abnegation and by giving as much time as possible to serving the Cause in your community you can eventually succeed in overcoming your problem”
• lustful desires that must be overcome: “pride, greed, selfishness, lustful heterosexual or homosexual desires, to name a few which must be overcome, and overcome them we must if we are to fulfil the purpose of our human existence”
• must face punishment from society: “Sex relationships of any form, outside marriage, are not permissible therefore, and whoso violates this rule will not only be responsible to God, but will incur the necessary punishment from society.”

Yes that is how Baha'i leaders refer to the LGBT community and at the same time claim tolerance! If you have problems with LGBT I'm fine with that, many people are. I'm personally not fine with homosexual acts, but what is this hypocrisy? The above quotes are all taken from an official documented prepared by the Baha'i Universal House of Justice that you can read here: Homosexuality

5- Imagine giving someone the choice to choose from life imprisonment or being burned on the stake like the darkages for the simple reason of deliberately setting a house on fire? Is this tolerance? Well this is Baha'i law taken directly from the Baha'i Bible called the Kitab-i Aqdas:

“Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death. Take ye hold of the precepts of God with all your strength and power, and abandon the ways of the ignorant. Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book. He, verily, hath power to ordain whatsoever He pleaseth,” Bahā’u’llāh, The Kitābi Aqdas, p. 203.

These were simply some additional quotes that show contrary to Baha'i claims, there is no tolerance in Baha'i scripture for dissent and disbelief.

 

[oldbadger]

My experience is that mostly you will find governments of the world thanking Baha'i for their efforts for peace. I say mostly, as unjust oppressive governments still exist who will offer the same rhetoric you have...............

Have you any direct examples of governments thanking Bahai for its efforts for peace?

Thankyou.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1- Yes, the so called Baha'i claim of freedom of religion/belief/etc. Has anyone introduced the concept of covenant breakers here? No?!

You could not support the deceptive view and incorrect accusations made in your last post. As such responding to the content of further posts along the same lines, would not be appropriate and against the advice given by both Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha.

In the end those with a just heart will read all points of view and make their choices. What you post will assit them to do this, thus in that light thank you.

Stay well and happy, peace be with you, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Have you any direct examples of governments thanking Bahai for its efforts for peace?

Thankyou.

Good to see you Oldbadger I hope you have been well and happy.

There are much to many to post a google search will locate quite a few.

Messages of appreciation from leaders continue | Bahá’í World News Service (BWNS)

This one is Iranian population support.

Baha’is express gratitude for open letter of support | Bahá’í World News Service (BWNS)

I used 'letter of appreciation to bahai faith' and viewed images.

I have seen many from many countries over the years, many from Australian Prime Ministers and MP's

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

2- Did you know Baha'u'llah would refer to his deniers and non-Baha'is as donkeys, pigs, and ********:
Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ******** - Baha'i principles
The Quotes mentioned here are from authentic Baha'i books that they will simply not translate to English. (Typical Baha'i response: that is an anti-Baha'i hate cite blah blah)

Anyone can twist words and meanings especially with poor translation.

So how do the Shi’a Muslims in Iran measure up when it comes to freedom of religion?

Freedom of religion in Iran - Wikipedia

Not too well, but I doubt few would be surprised.

Let’s look at what the Baha’i writings say about the fundamental purpose of religion?

O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men…Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.
— Bahá’u’lláh

So If the fundamental purpose animating religion is love and fellowship what should we do if religion becomes the source of hatred and animosity?

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 127-134

I doubt if the Shi’a Muslim orthodoxy in Iran or the authors of your book would look too kindly on the idea that no religion is better than a religion that causes hate.

 

[oldbadger]

Messages of appreciation from leaders continue | Bahá’í World News Service (BWNS)

Baha’is express gratitude for open letter of support | Bahá’í World News Service (BWNS)

I have seen many from many countries over the years, many from Australian Prime Ministers and MP's

Regards Tony

Hi.....
I asked:-
Have you any direct examples of governments thanking Bahai for its efforts for peace?

You have offered statements of friendship from a minister, some greetings on an anniversary, and a nice communication from Iran, a country which Bahais claim is nasty to them.

So you haven't got any Direct evidence of Nations' Governments thanking Bahai for its efforts for peace.



D'you know, it seems that Bahai can hardly make a one sentence statement that rings true.

 

[oldbadger]

1- Yes, the so called Baha'i claim of freedom of religion/belief/etc. Has anyone introduced the concept of covenant breakers here? No?! If you actively oppose Baha'i leadership you are labelled as a covenant-breaker. This would mean you are separated from your loved ones, parents, children, spouse, and any other Baha'i associates. No Baha'i is ever allowed to associate or speak with you or else they will be given the same treatment... so called Freedom of Religion and Belief, Tolerance and Non-discrimination...

2- Did you know Baha'u'llah would refer to his deniers and non-Baha'is as donkeys, pigs, and ********:
Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ******** - Baha'i principles
The Quotes mentioned here are from authentic Baha'i books that they will simply not translate to English. (Typical Baha'i response: that is an anti-Baha'i hate cite blah blah)

3- Any Baha'i that perceives any form of hatred toward Baha'u'llah is obliged under Baha'i law to shun that person:

“Shun any man in whom you perceive enmity for this Servant, though he may appear in the garb of piety of the former and later people, or may arise to the worship of the two worlds,” `Abdu’l-Bahā, Bahā’ī World Faith—Selected Writings of Bahā’u’llāh and `Abdu’l-Bahā (`Abdu’l-Bahā’s Section Only), p. 431.


“‘Therefore, it is incumbent upon all the friends of God to shun any person in whom they perceive the emanation of hatred for the Glorious Beauty of Abhā, though he may quote all the Heavenly Utterances and cling to all the Books.’ He continues—Glorious be His Name!—‘Protect yourselves with utmost vigilance, lest you be entrapped in the snare of deception and fraud. This is the advice of the Pen of Destiny,’ `Abdu’l-Bahā, Bahā’ī World Faith—Selected Writings of Bahā’u’llāh and `Abdu’l-Bahā (`Abdu’l-Bahā’s Section Only), pp. 430–431.

The two aforementioned quotes are both authorized Baha'i translations.

4- Imagine someone claiming tolerance and non-discrimination but heaping all these statements against a certain group of people:

• “defilement of evil passions”
• “satanic deeds”
• “shameful sexual aberration”
• “immoral conduct” or “Immorality” or “abhorrent”
• “wrong” or “corruptive” or sometimes borderline insanity: “conduct borders on insanity”
• “being against nature”
• an affliction and great burden: “afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul”
• “handicap” or “aberration” or “abnormality”
• an act that is a disgrace to Baha’ism: “disgracing the Cause”
• “cause of suffering”
• unhealthy use of the sex impulse: “Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse”
• A problem whose solution is this: “with the help of doctors, by prayer and meditation, by self-abnegation and by giving as much time as possible to serving the Cause in your community you can eventually succeed in overcoming your problem”
• lustful desires that must be overcome: “pride, greed, selfishness, lustful heterosexual or homosexual desires, to name a few which must be overcome, and overcome them we must if we are to fulfil the purpose of our human existence”
• must face punishment from society: “Sex relationships of any form, outside marriage, are not permissible therefore, and whoso violates this rule will not only be responsible to God, but will incur the necessary punishment from society.”

Yes that is how Baha'i leaders refer to the LGBT community and at the same time claim tolerance! If you have problems with LGBT I'm fine with that, many people are. I'm personally not fine with homosexual acts, but what is this hypocrisy? The above quotes are all taken from an official documented prepared by the Baha'i Universal House of Justice that you can read here: Homosexuality

5- Imagine giving someone the choice to choose from life imprisonment or being burned on the stake like the darkages for the simple reason of deliberately setting a house on fire? Is this tolerance? Well this is Baha'i law taken directly from the Baha'i Bible called the Kitab-i Aqdas:

“Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death. Take ye hold of the precepts of God with all your strength and power, and abandon the ways of the ignorant. Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book. He, verily, hath power to ordain whatsoever He pleaseth,” Bahā’u’llāh, The Kitābi Aqdas, p. 203.

These were simply some additional quotes that show contrary to Baha'i claims, there is no tolerance in Baha'i scripture for dissent and disbelief.

Wow! I've copied some of those paragraphs..... didn't know about them.

One thing......... you mention the word 'donkeys'. I read or heard on only one occasion that Iranian Bahais refer to Bahais from other nations, Western cultures etc as 'Donkeys', but have not, cannot confirm this....... do you know anything about that?

 

[oldbadger]

.... ...... I think it’s important Baha’is represent their faith accurately and reflect the spirit of the Faith through their attitudes.......

Well I never did........

 

[oldbadger]

Your knowledge about Aryans as with many other things is woefully inadequate. And you hardly have a desire or the capacity to learn about it. Aryans did not have any form of untouchability. Aryans did not drive the locals out of any city. They had marital relations with the indigenous people and mixed with them (in time, completely, so as not to leave even a sliver of difference). Untouchability came up much later, in the Gupta time. Sage Vedavyasa who compiled the Vedas and wrote Bramha Sutra and Bhagawat Purana, was a shudra, and so was his son, Vidura, a friend of Krishna and considered one of the wisest men in Hinduism. The Kauravas and Pandavas also had mixed blood. Their great-grandmother, wife of Emperor Shantanu, Queen Satyavati, was a local fisherman's daughter.

Hi, Aupmanyav......
Do you have or belong to a caste?

Here in the UK, my position is 'pleb'.....

 

[oldbadger]

Congratulations. You just proved the point I made at the beginning of the previous post by SHOOTING THE MESSENGER.

If you are a Muslim, any kind of Muslim, then Bahai can dust its hands of you and and call out 'misinformation!' etc.

You surely do know a lot about Bahai.......... truly....