A simple thread that lets Atheists contend (or discuss, whichever you prefer) Christianity.

[Kathryn]

Kathryn have you ever read any of Timothy Freke/Peter Gandy's books. They are a very good resource to learn about this subject. They've done a lot of research into the subject. Some of their books are the "Laughing Jesus", "Jesus and the Lost Goddess" and the "Jesus Mysteries. Some older books are Alvin Kuhn "Who is this King of Glory? A critical Study of the Christos-Messiah Tradition, any of his are interesting, Godfrey Higgins "Anacalypsis: An Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis; or an Inquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations and Religions, Vol. I and II and Gerald Massey "Ancient Egypt, the Light of the World, Volumes I and II. Some of these are quite old and may have to be ordered in from Universities at your local library. All are amazingly informative.

That's good enough information, but i really am looking for texts and art that PREDATE Christianity that support these theories. I would prefer not having to go to a library to find them - you would think that online there would be some specific sources mentioned. For instance, I can google Josephus or Tertullian or the Talmud and I get thousands of pages of info discussing very specific documents, evidence, etc - but I can't find any specific sources that predate Christianity listed anywhere.

The books you mentioned seem to be 20th century works - is that right? They may include some sources but you would think that if these sources were legitimate we would be able to find them discussed online somewhere.

 

[Storm]

Kathryn, maybe I'm being dense, but are you asking for pre-Christian sources that compare these figures to Christ?

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, maybe I'm being dense, but are you asking for pre-Christian sources that compare these figures to Christ?

LOL, No, I am asking for pre-Christian sources that state the same beliefs about these two dieties that came along with Christianity and Jesus later - virgin birth, 12 disciples, born on December 25 - etc. See the other thread about Horus and Mithras and similarities to Jesus or google it - it's all over the internet.

 

[Kathryn]

My point is that I can't find any PRE Christian texts or art that mirrors Christian beliefs closely - but AFTER the fact (AD) and mostly in the 20th century, suddenly there was an explosion of "hey, cool, look at all these, errrr, similarities...yeah, that's the ticket..."

Who's copying whom? Seems like a lot of conjecture to me. By the way, I'm not talking about things like baptism, bread and wine, sacrifice - these were common practices among various religions - still are. I'm talking more specifically.

 

[Sententia]

Please don't assume that I haven't given heresy a chance in my own life!

Heresy... Grows from idleness!

 

[Sententia]

LOL, No, I am asking for pre-Christian sources that state the same beliefs about these two dieties that came along with Christianity and Jesus later - virgin birth, 12 disciples, born on December 25 - etc. See the other thread about Horus and Mithras and similarities to Jesus or google it - it's all over the internet.

I don't understand what your trying to figure out... 12 months of the year... 12 phases of the moon, 12 disciples... odd... Dec 25th? Winter Solistace? Isn't that kind of based on how long it takes us to go looping about that big hot heavenly body and our orbit?

2 Dieties? You have have a left and right hemisphere and are always interpreting things like 2 different people.

The part from Zeitgeist they are talking about is here: YouTube - Myth of Religion; The Solar Messiahs God's Sun Christ Horus

What I dont get is what are you arguing? This must be the holy word of god because there is no way anyone could have assembled and editted and published these random books and called them the bible unless it was from god? Humans couldn't have just made this up? There is just no way? Is it too ridiculous?

I cant see that being your argument so I must be missing something you are implying.

 

[challupa]

That's good enough information, but i really am looking for texts and art that PREDATE Christianity that support these theories. I would prefer not having to go to a library to find them - you would think that online there would be some specific sources mentioned. For instance, I can google Josephus or Tertullian or the Talmud and I get thousands of pages of info discussing very specific documents, evidence, etc - but I can't find any specific sources that predate Christianity listed anywhere.

The books you mentioned seem to be 20th century works - is that right? They may include some sources but you would think that if these sources were legitimate we would be able to find them discussed online somewhere.

Some were written in 1830 and they do have sources. I have no idea if Jesus was historical or mythical or a man who was a socially radical and advanced for his time that people ascribed mythological things to after his death. Those books that I listed though are interesting and thought provoking.

 

[Sunstone]

I think Jesus was like Elvis. Someone around whom a lot of urban legends cropped up.

 

[Kathryn]

Some were written in 1830 and they do have sources. .

Sorry for yelling (not at you personally) but:

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THESE SOURCES ARE?????????

This is exactly my point - in the Post Christian era (which started in the late 1700s) these comparisons between Christianity and ancient pagan sects began to snowball - as Christianity became, more than ever, the target of secular humanists.

However, when I've read some of these writings comparing Horus and Mithras (and some others) these writers DO NOT GIVE THEIR SOURCES.

So I was asking for their specific sources - sources that specifically link Horus and Mithras to all these alleged similarities - the virgin birth, 12 disciples, etc - the similiarities that this thread alleges.

My point is that Judaism and Christianity have very specific texts outlining very specific beliefs. The NT texts in particular were written very nearly after their recorded events.

I want to see sources that PREDATE CHRISTIANITY that outline the specific beliefs about Horus and Mithra that allegedly are so similar to Christianity - that prove these beliefs were in place BEFORE Christianity. Specific sources.

My gosh, for the life of me I can't understand why this REQUEST FOR SOURCES seems so hard for people to grasp.

Could it be that they can't FIND any specific sources?

 

[Storm]

LOL, No, I am asking for pre-Christian sources that state the same beliefs about these two dieties that came along with Christianity and Jesus later - virgin birth, 12 disciples, born on December 25 - etc. See the other thread about Horus and Mithras and similarities to Jesus or google it - it's all over the internet.

OK, good. Because that would just be silly.

 

[herushura]

Sun gods are born 25 December, because dec 25th is 3 day after the winter Soltice, where the ancient would say that the Sun has died or stopped, Sol-tice = Sun-stoped. Infact its the Same reason why Santa comes in christman morning, because the big red santa is the big red sunrise.
san-ta / Sun-ta - like East-ta, sun rises in the EAST in TAR sky, Santa come from the North, because the Sun begins his NORTHenly journey from east to west.

 

[Smoke]

Sun gods are born 25 December, because dec 25th is 3 day after the winter Soltice, where the ancient would say that the Sun has died or stopped, Sol-tice = Sun-stoped. Infact its the Same reason why Santa comes in christman morning, because the big red santa is the big red sunrise.
san-ta / Sun-ta - like East-ta, sun rises in the EAST in TAR sky, Santa come from the North, because the Sun begins his NORTHenly journey from east to west.

Wow.

 

[Kathryn]

Sun gods are born 25 December, because dec 25th is 3 day after the winter Soltice, where the ancient would say that the Sun has died or stopped, Sol-tice = Sun-stoped. Infact its the Same reason why Santa comes in christman morning, because the big red santa is the big red sunrise.
san-ta / Sun-ta - like East-ta, sun rises in the EAST in TAR sky, Santa come from the North, because the Sun begins his NORTHenly journey from east to west.

I have always heard/read that winter solstice is on December 21 - which is sort of crazy to even apply to ancient calendars, which weren't structured like the ones we use today and which were different from culture to culture anyway.

So three days after the winter solstice would be...December 24? And why would sun gods be born three days afterwards? What's that significance?

That Santa stuff is..well, I am at a loss for words, for once. Silly me, all this time I thought that Santa Claus was a derivative of Saint Nicklaus.

 

[Alceste]

I have always heard/read that winter solstice is on December 21 - which is sort of crazy to even apply to ancient calendars, which weren't structured like the ones we use today and which were different from culture to culture anyway.

So three days after the winter solstice would be...December 24? And why would sun gods be born three days afterwards? What's that significance?

That Santa stuff is..well, I am at a loss for words, for once. Silly me, all this time I thought that Santa Claus was a derivative of Saint Nicklaus.

Nope - winter solstice is the shortest day of the year, no matter what the calendar says. The shortest day of the year would be the same day anywhere (in each hemisphere), regardless of the "calendar" used by any culture.

The symbolic significance of winter solstice has been recognized in all agrarian cultures due to their reliance on seasonal changes to predict times of planting and harvest. Autumn is the season of harvest (death), spring is the season of planting (rebirth). The winter solstice is the turning point between death and life, and the summer solstice is the turning point between life and death.

 

[challupa]

Sorry for yelling (not at you personally) but:

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THESE SOURCES ARE?????????

This is exactly my point - in the Post Christian era (which started in the late 1700s) these comparisons between Christianity and ancient pagan sects began to snowball - as Christianity became, more than ever, the target of secular humanists.

However, when I've read some of these writings comparing Horus and Mithras (and some others) these writers DO NOT GIVE THEIR SOURCES.

So I was asking for their specific sources - sources that specifically link Horus and Mithras to all these alleged similarities - the virgin birth, 12 disciples, etc - the similiarities that this thread alleges.

My point is that Judaism and Christianity have very specific texts outlining very specific beliefs. The NT texts in particular were written very nearly after their recorded events.

I want to see sources that PREDATE CHRISTIANITY that outline the specific beliefs about Horus and Mithra that allegedly are so similar to Christianity - that prove these beliefs were in place BEFORE Christianity. Specific sources.

My gosh, for the life of me I can't understand why this REQUEST FOR SOURCES seems so hard for people to grasp.

Could it be that they can't FIND any specific sources?

Well here is a link of interest. The object of interest is an amulet of the godman Dionysus in the passion. Also of interest is a picture of Dionysus as a child and note the halo which is similar to the one used in baby Jesus pictures.
Dionysus
Dionysus was said to have born of the virgin Semele. Of course you probably know that the word that is used for virgin does not mean a woman that has never had intercourse or even a child. A woman had to be able to prove she could create a living heir before the man needed to marry her. There was a temporary marriage until she bore a son and then a second marriage. In that time she was referred to a young unmarried woman or virgin. So the stories of being a virgin really don't have the same meaning we give to them today.

 

[herushura]

So three days after the winter solstice would be...December 24? And why would sun gods be born three days afterwards? What's that significance?
.

yes, thats true, but 24th is the last day of the soltice, and then when its christmas morning, the 3 day soltice ends, and the sun begins his northenly journey.
Well the significant is in the word "Solstice" itself.

solstice c.1250, from O.Fr. solstice, from L. solstitium "point at which the sun seems to stand still," from sol "sun" (see sol) + pp. stem of sistere "to come to a stop, make stand still" (see assist).
The Roman had a name for December 25th, it was called "Deus Sol Invictus"
which translates as "birthday of the Unconquered Sun"
the roman celebrated the suns birthday on dec-25th, because its a sign for the coming spring
Sol Invictus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Greek equivilent of sOL, is hELios, greeks adopted nearly all there gods from the pheonician Pantheon, and helios was called "Elion" or "EL", greeks knocked of Ns and tend to add "S", elion same as (h)elios. Elion was the subreme head of the pantheon, he appeared in genesis, he created Gaia, chaos and Ouranos, he is the sumerian and babylonian equivlient of "An", Anu is egytian for the name "Sun", and n and m are sometimes interchangable, and anu would be amu-n. or Amen. the powerfulest god in the egytpian pantheon, which is used in the word Ammonite, many biblical charaters have Amen in there name even immanual, and the A'man, also canned the template for todays masculine word MAN, and amens consort is Mut, as in mother.

 

[Kathryn]

The symbolic significance of winter solstice has been recognized in all agrarian cultures due to their reliance on seasonal changes to predict times of planting and harvest. Autumn is the season of harvest (death), spring is the season of planting (rebirth). The winter solstice is the turning point between death and life, and the summer solstice is the turning point between life and death.

Well, yes, I know that. But thanks for discussing it. I think the solstices are cool.

 

[Kathryn]

Here's the thing - I'm not saying that there aren't parallels or shared beliefs between Christianity and other religions - of course there are, and as a Christian I'm not threatened by that at ALL. In fact, I think it's really interesting and it gives me a warm fuzzy sort of feeling. One of the things I enjoy about being a Christian is that connectivity to thousands of years of other humans. I know that when I share the Eucharist, it's an ancient rite that connects me to other Christians.

That being said, one thing I love about the solstices is that same sense of connectivity with mankind, from the most ancient civilizations to present day.

Based on my LIMITED research (I freely admit I haven't put more than about a day into this), I haven't been able to come up with more than maybe three ancient sources that definitively show identifiable (ie, without massive STRETCHING and CONTORTING) parallels between Jesus and Mithras , or Horus, for that matter - and these are such common allegations today that frankly, I was surprised by that.

If someone were to produce such sources, it probably wouldn't shake my personal faith in Jesus Christ, but it would enhance my understanding of my faith - which is something I am always trying to do.

 

[Kathryn]

Actually even the two or three sources aren't ancient - they just make a little bit of sense - they're still stretching.

 

[challupa]

Actually even the two or three sources aren't ancient - they just make a little bit of sense - they're still stretching.

Well for me it really doesn't matter if Jesus is a myth or not. We know that many of the god's that were compared to Jesus were mythical, but that didn't make them any less important to those who believed in them.

What did you think of the pictures in the link I gave? I thought they were interesting.