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A simple thread that lets Atheists contend (or discuss, whichever you prefer) Christianity.

-anonymous-

New Member
I would like to open said debate with a question- Has anyone ever heard of the Egyptian god Horus and his story? For those of you that haven't, I would like to explain.

Horus's story is astoundingly similar to that of 'christ'. Horus was born to a virgin mother on December 25th. Horus was baptizied in a river. His baptizer, Anup, was later beheaded. Horus was crusified after expressing his religious ideas. He rose from the dead three days later, this event being proclaimed by two women. Sound familiar, Christians? By the way, the story was written somewhere around 3500-2800 B.C., at least one thousand years before the Bible.

 

challupa

Well-Known Member
I would like to open said debate with a question- Has anyone ever heard of the Egyptian god Horus and his story? For those of you that haven't, I would like to explain.

Horus's story is astoundingly similar to that of 'christ'. Horus was born to a virgin mother on December 25th. Horus was baptizied in a river. His baptizer, Anup, was later beheaded. Horus was crusified after expressing his religious ideas. He rose from the dead three days later, this event being proclaimed by two women. Sound familiar, Christians? By the way, the story was written somewhere around 3500-2800 B.C., at least one thousand years before the Bible.
Hi welcome to RF. Yes there were many myths that resemble the same story that date even earlier.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Indeed. I'm pretty sure Mesopotamia's Gilgamesh myth is even older than the Egyptian account. And we see societies around the world have their own accounts of creation of a male and a female, of a great flood, etc.

*EDIT* Woopsies. I just now realized this thread was specifically for atheists...my reading comprehension sucks...that is all.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Not an Atheist, (Unless a Deist, not being a Theist, would be considered Atheist ;))

Mithra anyone?
(1) Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: "Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven's own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator" (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).

(2) He was considered a great traveling teacher and masters. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.

(3) Mithra was called "the good shepherd,” "the way, the truth and the light,” “redeemer,” “savior,” “Messiah." He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.

(4) The International Encyclopedia states: "Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world ... The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part."

(5) Chambers Encyclopedia says: "The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed -- against all evidence -- as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries -- symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) -- were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts."

(6) Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: "The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians', purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord's supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December.... They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the Earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe" (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).

(7) Reverend Charles Biggs stated: "The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).

(8) In the catacombs at Rome was preserved a relic of the old Mithraic worship. It was a picture of the infant Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, while on their knees before him were Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts.

(9) He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.

(10) McClintock and Strong wrote: "In modern times Christian writers have been induced to look favorably upon the assertion that some of our ecclesiastical usages (e.g., the institution of the Christmas festival) originated in the cultus of Mithraism. Some writers who refuse to accept the Christian religion as of supernatural origin, have even gone so far as to institute a close comparison with the founder of Christianity; and Dupuis and others, going even beyond this, have not hesitated to pronounce the Gospel simply a branch of Mithraism" (Art. "Mithra").

(11) Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day." The Mithra religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

(12) The Christian Father Manes, founder of the heretical sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: "Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras ... His residence is in the sun" (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5).

Copyright © 2007 Near-Death Experiences & the Afterlife
 
I would like to open said debate with a question- Has anyone ever heard of the Egyptian god Horus and his story? For those of you that haven't, I would like to explain.

Horus's story is astoundingly similar to that of 'christ'. Horus was born to a virgin mother on December 25th. Horus was baptizied in a river. His baptizer, Anup, was later beheaded. Horus was crusified after expressing his religious ideas. He rose from the dead three days later, this event being proclaimed by two women. Sound familiar, Christians? By the way, the story was written somewhere around 3500-2800 B.C., at least one thousand years before the Bible.

here you go:

Jesus & Horus Parallels - A Christian Response

this guy pretty much destroys the whole "jesus copied horus" argument and if you click on the link at the very bottom, you will see his conversation with Acharya S, the author of the book "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold".

it just bugs me when atheists bring up bs arguments such as these. kinda like the whole "genesis 1 contradicts genesis2" argument. i dont know wether its hate or ignorance, perhaps its a mixture of both, but it sure gives the atheist community a bad name, not that i would care anyway, im agnostic
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't see how that page can claim to "destroy" the comparison between Horus and Jesus. All it does is contest some very minor details. They may very well be part of curiously-named "Acharya S"'s book (Acharya means "teacher" or "instructor" so this is obviously a pseudonym), but they lack relevancy to the comparison itself.

Then again, I don't see how or why anyone would expect Christ's Myth to be original, either. It is most obviously never meant to be taken literally, so it may only have meaning in a symbollic way. Therefore, it can hardly be expected to be all-original in its message.

If you ask me, the one thing that is really wrong with Christianity (and Islam) is the surprising tendency of its adepts to think of their religion as a source of Truth as opposed to Inspiration.
 

The-G-man

De Facto Atheist
I would like to open said debate with a question- Has anyone ever heard of the Egyptian god Horus and his story? For those of you that haven't, I would like to explain.

Horus's story is astoundingly similar to that of 'christ'. Horus was born to a virgin mother on December 25th. Horus was baptizied in a river. His baptizer, Anup, was later beheaded. Horus was crusified after expressing his religious ideas. He rose from the dead three days later, this event being proclaimed by two women. Sound familiar, Christians? By the way, the story was written somewhere around 3500-2800 B.C., at least one thousand years before the Bible.

There are actual several Gods or sons' of God rather that have virtually the same story as jesus. Mithra,Tammuz, Dionysus being a just a couple.
This seems to show that the Jesus story is just not original and weakens its pull for me dramatically, it looks like that this is a tried and tested control method of the past, and history proves it, look at the Stories of Mithra and the others i have included above they are virtually identical to that of Jesus, except for small changes, and lets give them credit for changing them a little bit.
 

The-G-man

De Facto Atheist
I don't see how that page can claim to "destroy" the comparison between Horus and Jesus. All it does is contest some very minor details. They may very well be part of curiously-named "Acharya S"'s book (Acharya means "teacher" or "instructor" so this is obviously a pseudonym), but they lack relevancy to the comparison itself.

Then again, I don't see how or why anyone would expect Christ's Myth to be original, either. It is most obviously never meant to be taken literally, so it may only have meaning in a symbollic way. Therefore, it can hardly be expected to be all-original in its message.

If you ask me, the one thing that is really wrong with Christianity (and Islam) is the surprising tendency of its adepts to think of their religion as a source of Truth as opposed to Inspiration.

I agree wholeheartedly.
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
I would like to open said debate with a question- Has anyone ever heard of the Egyptian god Horus and his story? For those of you that haven't, I would like to explain.

Horus's story is astoundingly similar to that of 'christ'. Horus was born to a virgin mother on December 25th. Horus was baptizied in a river. His baptizer, Anup, was later beheaded. Horus was crusified after expressing his religious ideas. He rose from the dead three days later, this event being proclaimed by two women. Sound familiar, Christians? By the way, the story was written somewhere around 3500-2800 B.C., at least one thousand years before the Bible.
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Assumption of Peculiarity[/FONT]
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Good response by George and Ray Konig on AboutBibleProphecy.com

Was Mithras born of a virgin, in a stable, on Dec. 25?

Question: I read in the letters-to-the-editor section of [a major U.S. newspaper] that: "pre-Jesus Roman soldiers worshiped Mithras, who was born in a stable to a virgin on Dec. 25." And that "Isis, the great Egyptian Goddess, had absorbed Hellenistic qualities by the time of Roman rule, and was the most popular divinity in the Mediterranean basin. In her temples, Isis was often depicted with her son, Horus, on her lap. (Horus was conceived with a revivified god.) As Christianity 'encroached,' statues of Isis with Horus were repainted and renamed, Mary and Jesus. Numerous myths recount a sacrificed or slain god who is resurrected through the efforts of a goddess; Isis/Osiris and Inanna/Dummuz (Sumerian) are two well-known. Historians agree that to make Christianity more palatable to the masses, the church absorbed ancient traditions and gods. Pagan traditions are as valid as other spiritual paths, and instead of insisting that their path is the only one, isn't it about time that Christians develop respect for what others believe?" Is this true?

Response: The letter writer is using a lot of false information, especially in claiming that the mythical birth of Mithras was similar to the birth of Jesus. They were not similar, in any detail, as will be explained later.

Many Roman soldiers did worship a mythical god named Mithras, but there is no record of any ancient tradition involving a December 25th birth date for Mithras. See, for example: de-coding Da Vinci: The facts behind the fiction of The Da Vinci Code, by Amy Welborn.

In fact, there are few, if any, written records from Mithraic worshippers explaining their beliefs. Much of the information that we have about Mithraism comes from scholars who offer speculative interpretations of Mithraic artwork, which began to appear a few centuries after the time of Jesus. So whatever similarities there might be between Christianity and Mithraism, it would be easier to speculate that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity, not the other way around.

As for the claim that myth of Mithras involves him being born in a stable or manger, like Jesus, this is false. The story of Mithras involves him being hatched from an egg of rock, before time itself began. See, for example, The Mysteries of Mithras, by Franz Cumont. For the record, Cumont was a non-Christian scholar who was antagonistic towards Christianity.
ajmithras.jpg

Statue of Mithras being hatched from egg of rock
As for the "virgin birth" of Mithras, even if one decides to claim that the rock from which Mithras was hatched was a virgin, or that the being or entity that laid the egg of rock was a virgin, any comparisons between this birth scenario and the virgin birth of Jesus, through a human and mortal mother, would be absurd and undignified.

As for the claim that there were paintings of the mythical Isis holding her mythical son Horus, so what? If the letter writer is trying to make the point that the artists who painted Christian themes were influenced by artists who painted non-Christian themes, then it should be pointed out that Christianity is not based on paintings. Christianity can influence a painting, but a painting cannot influence Christianity.

And, if the letter writer is trying to claim that the idea, motif, or concept of a mother holding an infant son is not unique to Christianity, then it should be pointed out that no one has ever said otherwise. The fact is, mothers have been holding their infants since human history began. And about 50 percent of these infants have been male. No one should be surprised that there are Christian and non-Christian depictions of mothers holding children.

As for the claim that "Numerous myths recount a sacrificed or slain god who is resurrected," I challenge the letter writer, and anyone else, to provide a single example of this that can be found in any type of literature or artwork that pre-dates the time of Christianity. (In all the research that I have done, I have found no examples of this).

As for the claim that "Historians agree that to make Christianity more palatable to the masses, the church absorbed ancient traditions and gods," the first response is to note that Christianity is monotheistic religion that does not believe in "gods." The second response is to question what historians supposedly agree upon.

The fact is, the historians from the first, second and third centuries, including Tacitus, Suetonius, and a number of early Christian writers, made it clear that Christianity was spreading very rapidly, despite the fact that many pagans harshly persecuted Christians during this time. Because of the rapid growth in the popularity of Christianity, many pagan and gnostic religions were under tremendous pressure to adopt and adapt elements of Christianity, in an attempt to become more appealing to people who were abandoning paganism and gnosticism. The plan failed.

Historians agree that pagan and gnostic religions were highly prone to syncretism - borrowing and incorporating ideas from other religions. The preponderance of evidence plainly and loudly suggests that pagan and gnostic religions borrowed from Christianity, not the other way around.

And finally, the letter writer concludes her letter with an irony: "isn't it about time that Christians develop respect for what others believe?" They have. And, they are unique in this regard. And I'm going to show you how to prove to yourself that Christians do tolerate and respect other religions and that they are unique in doing so:

1. Grab a pen and a piece of paper.

2. Write down a list of all the countries in the world that have laws allowing people from different religious backgrounds to become immigrants, and that have laws protecting the freedom of religion, not to mention the freedom to criticize the religion of the majority of people within those countries.

3. Once you've finished listing the countries, take note of how many of them are predominantly Christian. (Hint: all of them.)
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Kathryn,
Please be so kind as to watch this here movie:
Zeitgeist - The Movie

Interestingly enough, if you can put up with the boringness of the movie, it does in fact show that there are numerous stories that are quite similar to the Jesus story and much older.

But do not take the movies word for it.
Do some actual research, not ratification, but honest research.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Assumption of Peculiarity[/FONT]
You would be much better off actually doing some research on the matter instead of merely assuming your "assumption of peculiarity".

Or perhaps you are going to present some honest research to refute the claims?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Kathryn,
Please be so kind as to watch this here movie:
Zeitgeist - The Movie

Interestingly enough, if you can put up with the boringness of the movie, it does in fact show that there are numerous stories that are quite similar to the Jesus story and much older.

But do not take the movies word for it.
Do some actual research, not ratification, but honest research.

I'm not doubting that there are some similarities between religions - all the more evidence that there's integral truth to man's quest for wisdom and knowledge about God.

For instance, there are lots of ancient flood stories as well.

And by the way, I've done a lot of reading up on this topic in the past - I haven't seen any arguments that disprove the existance of Jesus the Christ in the first century AD, or the experiences of the early church as chronicled in the NT.

Please don't assume that I haven't given heresy a chance in my own life!
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
And by the way, I've done a lot of reading up on this topic in the past - I haven't seen any arguments that disprove the existance of Jesus the Christ in the first century AD, or the experiences of the early church as chronicled in the NT.
Of course not.

However, the real question is how much have you found FOR his existence that does not use the scriptures as its ultimate source?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Historians agree that pagan and gnostic religions were highly prone to syncretism - borrowing and incorporating ideas from other religions. The preponderance of evidence plainly and loudly suggests that pagan and gnostic religions borrowed from Christianity, not the other way around.

Simply not true. Paganism is far more ancient than Christianity, as are many of the influences shown in Christianity.

And finally, the letter writer concludes her letter with an irony: "isn't it about time that Christians develop respect for what others believe?" They have. And, they are unique in this regard. And I'm going to show you how to prove to yourself that Christians do tolerate and respect other religions and that they are unique in doing so:

1. Grab a pen and a piece of paper.

2. Write down a list of all the countries in the world that have laws allowing people from different religious backgrounds to become immigrants, and that have laws protecting the freedom of religion, not to mention the freedom to criticize the religion of the majority of people within those countries.

3. Once you've finished listing the countries, take note of how many of them are predominantly Christian. (Hint: all of them.)

Very poor - and not very honest - argument. There are at least two major questionable points:

1) What is a "predominantly Christian" country anyway? In how many of those does it make more sense to attribute the tolerance to Christian values than to attribute the Christian presence to healthier tolerance instead? Do countries such as Germany, Finland and Sweden qualify?

2) One does not usually have a law to protect something unless there is a perceived risk to whatever is being protected. The presence of such laws is therefore a very poor indicator of actual safety or tolerance; at least in theory, the safest and most tolerant countries would not even bother to create such laws. And that is without dwelling on the matter of how effective or seriously applied those laws would be.

Out of curiosity, would you say that India and Indonesia are predominantly Christian, just to mention two examples that spring to mind?

Also, what about the complementary inquiry? How many of the intolerant countries are Christian? Historically there were quite a few, you know.
 

The-G-man

De Facto Atheist
Mithras is only one of the several stories almost the same Jesus's. Also Mithras goes back to 2300 years before Jesus i believe, anyone with a non biase view point clearly see the similarities between all the stories and can make and informed decision that the likely hood of truth in these stories are improbable.
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
You would be much better off actually doing some research on the matter instead of merely assuming your "assumption of peculiarity".

Or perhaps you are going to present some honest research to refute the claims?
I have no interest in refuting the claims. The OP introduced the topic as if it is something most have never heard of. I am merely refuting that claim.
 
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