A rise in anti-religious sentiment on the forums?

[MissAlice]

Every non-believer every "Easter Sunday Christian" or "one prayer Muslim" is a threat to his nation and its future. Such individuals must be confronted and their behavior changed, ". . . by reason where possible.

Good grief Omar,

I guess the Spanish Inquisition wouldn't be befitting. But if I believed in reincarnation, I'd say you'd have been one in a past life since it's the same attitude in a different suit of cards...

I'd be curious as to what your upbringing was and how religion drastically impaired your judgement of people. As much as I dislike what the majority of religion has done in terms of wars and conflicts, not everyone I've met of faith has this attitude you seem to assume them in.

A little like the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

 

[Morse]

You should complete your thoughts in one post, makes it more difficult to become derailed between your statements. And if you end up being right, it makes for a nice entrance and exit.

I'd prefer reading black, as anybody can ID your posts by your name and content. Of course, if you truly feel the need to type in bright colors to attract attention, who am I to nay say

 

[blackout]

I type in purple.

*UV can't wait to hear Morse's theory of why she does so*

(PS... "attracting attention" would not even be close)

 

[Morse]

Purple is your favorite color. As well, you are not offensive and close minded, you do not upset people with your very presence.

Every person has a certain allowance of negative traits before they become a plague. For example, mine is my rather mean comments. Yours is purple writing. His is bright blue writing and a fossilized brain. Others may lay claim to saying things such as "God requires no proof because I have faith in god and he transcends logic and the bible said so."

At least, that's what I made up right now so I wouldn't feel like I was insulting you.

EDIT: It goes with your name too.

 

[MoonWater]

"Have you noticed that you have the same zeal and fervor for your views that the religious extremists hold for theirs? Have you ever considered that maybe its this zeal and fervor for one's own ideas that causes the problems and not the ideas themselves?"

Actually I have noticed that. :yes: And have considered the why for some time. I think it comes from two main sources. I don't think we share them both but since you were foolish enough to raise the question I will bore you with a long and complex answer.

For the true believer, who after all is the ONLY kind of believer that matters (a fact most of you seem to either fail to recognize or chose to ignore ) for person who takes faith seriously, whose life is defined by it, whose sees society and history thru its filter, there is little else of significance. For THAT believer the stakes are high indeed. His immortal soul and all eternity hang in the balance. And not only his but society's as well. His nation and its future depend on a proper relationship with god. And that relationship is merely the sum total of each citizen's relationship with god.

Every non-believer every "Easter Sunday Christian" or "one prayer Muslim" is a threat to his nation and its future. Such individuals must be confronted and their behavior changed, ". . . by reason where possible. By fire and sword where necessary” as L. Brent Bozell put it. These folk are deadly serious about their aims and pursue those aims with deadly seriousness. As well they should. IF what they believe IS true then their actions are not simply justified – they are required.

Which brings us to the second source of their passion. They believe they are right, absolutely right, without possibility of error. They enjoy metaphysical certainty that their god is not simply their god but the ONE and ONLY god. The tenets of their faith are not simply good ideas but are universal in application as to time place and person.

There is nothing in the analysis that is either new or startling. It largely follows the thesis in Eric Hoffer’s “The True Believer”. (If you are interested it is very good read.) That is my understanding of the source of the believer’s passion. Obviously I do not share his religious views. But the 1st source, different story . . . more to follow.


Aren't you sorry you asked?

Nope, actually your response has actually helped me to understand why you feel and act the way you do towards religion and the religious. I would probably act the same way you do if I overgeneralized people and thought that the only people who were "true believers" or "true people of faith" were extremists of the Abrahamic flavor. However I don't act this way because I happen to realize there is far FAR more to religion and religious people than those abrahamic flavored extremists. Such people are actually a very small though albeit loud minority within religion, a fact which I've noticed you refuse to acknowledge.

So no, I'm not sorry I asked because now I understand where your bigotry comes from. It comes from the same place as the bigotry of religious extremists... gross over-generalization and a stubborn refusal to look at the whole picture, consider the myriad of differences and individuals within the "opposing side" and stubborn refusal to consider other people's perspectives. Now that I understand this it will be easier for me to address it in the future.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"Have you noticed that you have the same zeal and fervor for your views that the religious extremists hold for theirs? Have you ever considered that maybe its this zeal and fervor for one's own ideas that causes the problems and not the ideas themselves?"

Part two.

Since I do not share the religious views of the “extremists” what do we have in common?

Short answer, a zeal for the good of the body politic.

I assert and am prepared to vigorously defend the following proposition. The widespread belief in a supernatural god(s) creates a society dedicated to ignorance, obscurantism, autocracy and a denial of the free use of reason. In consideration of your time in reading this I will not list the evidence in support of that assertion and absent your challenge I will take it as established.

I do not wish to be a part of such a society, Nor do I wish my G/C or G/G/C to be subject to it. But I fear it is all too possible. I see the expansion of the power of belief in supernatural religion both here and world wide and fear for the welfare and liberty of myself and my descendants. I hear the speeches of religious leaders both Christian and Muslim and hear no difference in their desire to control the minds of men. I recoil in horror at the vision of the society they would create. I raise one small voice of protest. I know it is at times more shrill than persuasive but I persist for I have no other weapon to use in defense of human dignity and reason.

For me the stakes in this struggle are much the same as for the religious. For while we define the content differently we both see them as ultimate. They see an eternal world of justice peace and the calm certitude that comes from submission to a perfect authority. They would have it tomorrow if not sooner.

I see the Russia of Nicholas I. I want no part of it. Ever.

 

[MoonWater]

"Have you noticed that you have the same zeal and fervor for your views that the religious extremists hold for theirs? Have you ever considered that maybe its this zeal and fervor for one's own ideas that causes the problems and not the ideas themselves?"

Part two.

Since I do not share the religious views of the “extremists” what do we have in common?

Short answer, a zeal for the good of the body politic.

I assert and am prepared to vigorously defend the following proposition. The widespread belief in a supernatural god(s) creates a society dedicated to ignorance, obscurantism, autocracy and a denial of the free use of reason. In consideration of your time in reading this I will not list the evidence in support of that assertion and absent your challenge I will take it as established.

I do not wish to be a part of such a society, Nor do I wish my G/C or G/G/C to be subject to it. But I fear it is all too possible. I see the expansion of the power of belief in supernatural religion both here and world wide and fear for the welfare and liberty of myself and my descendants. I hear the speeches of religious leaders both Christian and Muslim and hear no difference in their desire to control the minds of men. I recoil in horror at the vision of the society they would create. I raise one small voice of protest. I know it is at times more shrill than persuasive but I persist for I have no other weapon to use in defense of human dignity and reason.

For me the stakes in this struggle are much the same as for the religious. For while we define the content differently we both see them as ultimate. They see an eternal world of justice peace and the calm certitude that comes from submission to a perfect authority. They would have it tomorrow if not sooner.

I see the Russia of Nicholas I. I want no part of it. Ever.

Omar, I actually partly agree with you. I am very much aware that there are many corrupt individuals in religion and unfortunately many of these corrupt individuals have found there way into positions of great power and influence. And yes this needs to be addressed and fought against. However I also understand that most within religion are not like this. I also understand that there are numerous religious people who don't believe in anything supernatural and many non-religious people who do just as I understand that it is not belief in the supernatural which leads to "ignorance, obscurantism, autocracy and a denial of the free use of reason". I understand this because I don't spend all my time focusing on the negatives and because I don't blame concepts for the actions of people. I also understand that just because a few people use religion as a tool to commit atrocities doesn't mean religion itself is atrocious, for there are numerous people who use religion as a tool and guide to help them do great and wonderful things.

I would be interested in seeing just what this proof yours is, though.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Nope, actually your response has actually helped me to understand why you feel and act the way you do towards religion and the religious. I would probably act the same way you do if I overgeneralized people and thought that the only people who were "true believers" or "true people of faith" were extremists of the Abrahamic flavor. However I don't act this way because I happen to realize there is far FAR more to religion and religious people than those abrahamic flavored extremists. Such people are actually a very small though albeit loud minority within religion, a fact which I've noticed you refuse to acknowledge.

So no, I'm not sorry I asked because now I understand where your bigotry comes from. It comes from the same place as the bigotry of religious extremists... gross over-generalization and a stubborn refusal to look at the whole picture, consider the myriad of differences and individuals within the "opposing side" and stubborn refusal to consider other people's perspectives. Now that I understand this it will be easier for me to address it in the future.

Ah young Madam you are too simple. I fear you have made a judgment absent sufficient evidence. I have but made a few opening remarks. Your objections will be dealt with in full and with vigor. But do please allow an old man his beauty sleep.

 

[MoonWater]

Ah young Madam you are too simple. I fear you have made a judgment absent sufficient evidence. I have but made a few opening remarks. Your objections will be dealt with in full and with vigor. But do please allow an old man his beauty sleep.

Simple? I would find that comment insulting if it weren't so amusing. lol. If you truly knew me you would not consider me simple, just ask riverwolf. My judgment has been made not simply based on your remarks in this thread but also from what I've seen of you in other threads. However if I have misjudged I would certainly be happy to rescind my remarks if you show me where my error in judgment was. I would not be the first time I misjudged someone and frankly I hope I have considering the conclusions I have drawn. But I'm willing to wait until morning, especially since I require rest myself

 

[frg001]

Omar, I actually partly agree with you. I am very much aware that there are many corrupt individuals in religion and unfortunately many of these corrupt individuals have found there way into positions of great power and influence. And yes this needs to be addressed and fought against. However I also understand that most within religion are not like this. I also understand that there are numerous religious people who don't believe in anything supernatural and many non-religious people who do just as I understand that it is not belief in the supernatural which leads to "ignorance, obscurantism, autocracy and a denial of the free use of reason". I understand this because I don't spend all my time focusing on the negatives and because I don't blame concepts for the actions of people. I also understand that just because a few people use religion as a tool to commit atrocities doesn't mean religion itself is atrocious, for there are numerous people who use religion as a tool and guide to help them do great and wonderful things.

I would be interested in seeing just what this proof yours is, though.

I think Sam Harris hits the nail on the head in his End of Faith...

"Religious moderates are, in large part, responsible for the religious conflict in our world, because their beliefs provide the context in which scriptural literalism and religious violence can never be adequately opposed"


So long as the rationalists stand by and say nothing, then the nonsense of the holy books is passed down from generation to generation. Yes, most people will become harmless citizens, but a portion will become zealots, hell bent on avenging, converting and world domination.

This is not to mention the inherent bigotry within the pages of the abrahamic texts, which lead to the persecution of jews and homosexuals and subjugation of women.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Purple is your favorite color. As well, you are not offensive and close minded, you do not upset people with your very presence.

Every single pagan chick i have asked has said their favourite colour is purple. And i ask every one i meet.

-Q

 

[Sunstone]

I dream of the day when humankind has abolished all religions and replaced them with ice cream.

 

[sandandfoam]

I dream of the day when humankind has abolished all religions and replaced them with ice cream.

Will the fight will just shift to wafer or scoop?

I was thinking about it earlier. Regardless of what I believe I will always be a prod. There's no getting away from it. Drives me nuts sometimes. On that level religion drives me mad.

On another level I read about Islam, the Cathars, Buddha - whatever you're having yourself - and it fills me with wonder.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Don't know why but, even though I can't remember ever agreeing with him, I like him too.

Well, I'm not going to lie about it; there are some people I wouldn't miss a bit -- but not just because I disagree with them. I greatly enjoy Reverend Rick's posts, for instance, and he's wrong at least half the time.

That would make me right every now and then?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

It's his avatar.

It's so smiley and friendly.

 

[Morse]

The pope smiles too.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Good grief Omar,
As much as I dislike what the majority of religion has done in terms of wars and conflicts, not everyone I've met of faith has this attitude you seem to assume them in.

A little like the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

Quite true. Not all people of "faith" actually practice their faith. Most do not. And that fact is irrelevant to the argument being advanced. As I will demonstrate.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Simple? I would find that comment insulting if it weren't so amusing. lol. If you truly knew me you would not consider me simple, just ask riverwolf. My judgment has been made not simply based on your remarks in this thread but also from what I've seen of you in other threads. However if I have misjudged I would certainly be happy to rescind my remarks if you show me where my error in judgment was. I would not be the first time I misjudged someone and frankly I hope I have considering the conclusions I have drawn. But I'm willing to wait until morning, especially since I require rest myself

How sad.:sad4: And how revealing.

Madam, YOU are not what you post. YOU are not a pattern of electrons on my monitor. YOU are not even involved in this discussion. Neither am I. Our IDEAS are.

Your arguments are too simple. They lack depth. They reflect a shallow popular analysis that sees only the most obvious and mistakes that vision for a complete understanding. Rather like the poster noted above who has discovered that not all people of faith actually live it your analysis sees only the surface and the obvious. And on that shallow and narrow understanding you rest your conclusions.

 

[themadhair]

The pope smiles too.

Not the new one.

 

[Morse]

Not the new one.

He's a toad though. Amphibians can't smile.