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A Really Interesting Discussion about the "philosophical theology" of Spinoza

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Baruch Spinoza was a truly original thinker -- you can be sure about that, because he was basically excommunicated from the Jewish community of Amsterdan in the 17th century. It's only 25 minutes long, but it really does bring together a lot of the thought that has led many people away from theism towards deism -- and then eventually towards atheism.

I honestly think it's worth listening to -- and it might lead interested members to look further into Spinoza's (and later, Einstein's) thoughts about religion.

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I got to study Spinoza more.

That's almost exactly the way I had progressed.

Theist to Dieist to Atheist.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Little bit of background:

Spinoza is living in between the Age of Discovery (15th - 18th centuries) and just before the Scientific Revolution. He published his Ethics in the early 1630's. Isaac Newton's Principia was sixty years later 1687. He's still seeing the Christian Reformation and the European Colonial period and the Industrial Revolution is just getting started. Engineers are using lathes, making canons, ships, and factories that are powered by water mills. Stock markets have existed since the 15th century, so people are buying and selling stocks. Countries still believe that they must hoard gold in order to be strong. There are no assembly lines, and everything is custom made. Clothing is made by hand. Illness is as mysterious as the weather.


I have not read Spinoza or Maimonides, but I listened to the video.

Comments about the video:

In the video they say that Spinoza thinks God is being and is energy or nature. They refer to this as "The atheist's God" and say that to Spinoza people tend to be controlled by feelings and images rather than rationality. And Spinoza feels that religion and politics are both necessary to help people cope with those feelings and images at times when their rationality fails them. They say he expresses hope that people will improve their true knowledge of God and begin to rely more upon rationality and less upon religion or politics to get along with others. They comment that Spinoza marks a radical shift from the teaching of Maimonides.

I'm not aware of what the thinking on God was before Maimonides, not having read about him; but I'm aware he was considered a heretic in his time. Therefore I don't know if Spinoza is returning to a theological point of view from before Maimonides or is original -- cannot comment upon that. I mention it, because the video producers mention Maimonides but not what came before leaving a bit of gray area about Spinoza's theological shift. They allege that Spinoza is probably expelled from his community over his views on God. I don't know why they say 'probably was' rather than just saying whether it was or was not the case. It sounds like they want it to sound like it is true but cannot back up their claim. That annoys me, but its probably just a poor turn of phrase rather than a sleight of hand.

Spinoza's comments about love sound interesting. Are our communities today more or less loving? I'm not sure. I think he's right that people must love one another more if they are to live more rationally and less like sheep.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I tried to read a book by him, but I don't think I got a lot out of it.. It was before I had kindle, and could make organized highlights.. and the translation was in that centuries old english style, very hard to read.. I did make one thread on him though.. He wanted to envision god as making use of natural law
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Baruch Spinoza was a truly original thinker -- you can be sure about that, because he was basically excommunicated from the Jewish community of Amsterdan in the 17th century. It's only 25 minutes long, but it really does bring together a lot of the thought that has led many people away from theism towards deism -- and then eventually towards atheism....
My thought has not been led by Spinoza or Einstein, but has reached similar conclusions. As to the god-versions created by religion, those that I'm aware of, I'm an atheist. However, I think it quite possible, even likely, that a higher intelligence or higher power exists.

I don't describe my position as pantheism because most people limit the meaning of that word to the nature that we consciously perceive. I think our unconscious minds, in the right brain specifically, might be in touch with a greater reality. I think, for example, that the moral intuitions that we refer to as conscience , our moral guide, are among the right-brain effects we consciously observe.
 
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SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Spinoza's god sounds very similar to Nirguna Brahman. ;)

I like this Spinoza guy's philosophy. :D
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have long been a fan of Spinoza, which is not to say that I agree with everything he believed in. When in Amsterdam, my wife and I visited the Portuguese synagogue he had attended and took a tour there.

An excellent book that deals with his theological approach is "A Book Forged In Hell: Spinoza's Scandalous Treatise and the Birth of the Secular Age" by Steven Nadler.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Baruch Spinoza was a truly original thinker -- you can be sure about that, because he was basically excommunicated from the Jewish community of Amsterdan in the 17th century. It's only 25 minutes long, but it really does bring together a lot of the thought that has led many people away from theism towards deism -- and then eventually towards atheism.

I honestly think it's worth listening to -- and it might lead interested members to look further into Spinoza's (and later, Einstein's) thoughts about religion.

I'm really confused on the whole "Infinite Attributes" thing, can someone explain that to me?
 
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