a question i have about christian beliefs

[Katzpur]

I know our beliefs don't match up and the baby thing is killing me. The cool thing is by your beliefs I'm going to heaven. So when we meet there in heaven we'll both look like idiots i'm sure. Beside I love you...

Yes, by my beliefs, you're going to heaven. And maybe we'll actually even get along.

 

[ssa5757]

thank you Katzpur, you have brought up alot of interesting topics

The Greater Game has presented a very fundementalist view of christian beliefs.
I can clearly see how The Greater Game believes that the whole world is going to hell.
That we are all born sinners, that sin in itself is like a disease we are born with, so we are sinners right from birth, and that he is one of the chosen few to go to heaven, since has had the fortune to hear Gods word and recieve salvation.

I myself cant accept that.
How can I enjoy eternal paradise, knowing that billions are sufferning in hell due to no fault of their own, except being born?
and we are not talking about just destroying everyone that wasnt saved, or not ressurecting them into heaven, we are talking about sending them into eternal, never ending suffering.
I dont see how that does not bother you. there are some that most assuredly deserve that punishement, but, there are also so many good people out there today, of many cultures and religions, and throughout history that have lived just and noble lives, and have done no wrongs or harms.
But you say that is no matter, a persons actions in their life can make no account for the fact they were born sinners, that must repent, or perish in hell.
You could almost blame God himself for their sins, is it not He that created this world?

when you say that God does not owe us anything, well i for myself never asked to be born, or born with sin for that matter.
I would hope He would have some responsibility and compassion for his creation. You can say that He has, by giving us his only Son, but, i would dare to say it seems clear that that isnt enough. even missionaries and the efforts of christians to spread the word have not been enough.
The character of God that you potray to me does not seem a loving God, and a God i do not think I could love in return.
To send the majority of his creations into suffering due to faults in his own plan, since there is no way that the word of God, teachings of Jeses, could have reached every single person before their death on this earth.
And there are some who have lived very devout lives in whatever religion, they might have heard the word sometime in their life, but, now they are expected to believe that everything they have been taught and had faith in since birth is wrong, that they have worshipped a false god all their lives, that they must now believe in a new God, the christian God?
for some people they simply cannot accept that, and i do not think they should be punished and sent to eternal suffering for holding to thier faiths and beliefs. it does not seem fair or just to me.

But i will agree that your beliefs about salvation are directly from scriptures in the Bible, so it is hard to not deny them.
I know this is what my mother believes in too.
I really wish that one common belief could be agreed upon in regards to salvation, and what will happen to the worlds population

 

[Super Universe]

Just an example:

Good muslim's pray five times a day, give 2.5% of their wealth to the poor, and declare their faith in the God of Abraham. By Christian standards most good muslims are good Christians.

Humans love to notice the differences, the strange language, different clothes and food. Rather we should notice the similarities, that we all develop language to communicate, that we wear clothes to keep us from the elements, that we all eat to satisfy our hunger.





Which of the following is better?

The self proclaimed Christian who goes to church each and every Sunday yet tells his wife he has to work late so he can sleep with another mans wife during the week?

Or,

The man in Africa who has never been to a church but works hard each day to provide for his family that he loves with all of his heart.

God doesn't need you to perform rituals. It's deeper than that. Make a conscious choice for faith and choose to sin no more. If you want to go above that then purge all selfishness from within.

Good humans are accepted into God's service. We are all angels in training.

 

[Solon]

I have never ever come across some many self-deluded people; really it beggars credulity. I mean, Ok, you can believe this stuff if you want, but I'm simply amazed that you talk like you have some experience of things you think are to come in the way of it's factual. At best it's groundless speculation, at worse, it's totally ludicrous. If you join us and repent, you'll go to heaven, if you don't , you'll still go heaven. talk about hedging your bets lol.

S

 

[Katzpur]

How can I enjoy eternal paradise, knowing that billions are sufferning in hell due to no fault of their own, except being born?
and we are not talking about just destroying everyone that wasnt saved, or not ressurecting them into heaven, we are talking about sending them into eternal, never ending suffering.
I dont see how that does not bother you. there are some that most assuredly deserve that punishement, but, there are also so many good people out there today, of many cultures and religions, and throughout history that have lived just and noble lives, and have done no wrongs or harms.
But you say that is no matter, a persons actions in their life can make no account for the fact they were born sinners, that must repent, or perish in hell.
You could almost blame God himself for their sins, is it not He that created this world?

when you say that God does not owe us anything, well i for myself never asked to be born, or born with sin for that matter.
I would hope He would have some responsibility and compassion for his creation. You can say that He has, by giving us his only Son, but, i would dare to say it seems clear that that isnt enough. even missionaries and the efforts of christians to spread the word have not been enough.
The character of God that you potray to me does not seem a loving God, and a God i do not think I could love in return.
To send the majority of his creations into suffering due to faults in his own plan, since there is no way that the word of God, teachings of Jeses, could have reached every single person before their death on this earth.
And there are some who have lived very devout lives in whatever religion, they might have heard the word sometime in their life, but, now they are expected to believe that everything they have been taught and had faith in since birth is wrong, that they have worshipped a false god all their lives, that they must now believe in a new God, the christian God?
for some people they simply cannot accept that, and i do not think they should be punished and sent to eternal suffering for holding to thier faiths and beliefs. it does not seem fair or just to me.

But i will agree that your beliefs about salvation are directly from scriptures in the Bible, so it is hard to not deny them.
I know this is what my mother believes in too.

I hope you were directing these comments to GreaterGame, ssa. He has explained the fundamentalist Christian belief and has actually done so quite well. You must realize, though, that there are over 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today. Not all Christians interpret the Bible in the same way as GreaterGame does.

I really wish that one common belief could be agreed upon in regards to salvation, and what will happen to the worlds population

I'm afraid that's one belief that the world's Christians just don't seem to be able to see eye-to-eye on. You see, from my perspective, the Bible is God's word. It is, for the most part, an accurate record of His dealings with mankind. It's just not the only record (though, granted, most Christians will tell you otherwise). In other words, it's true but incomplete. God has said and done many things that are not contained within the pages of the Bible. He has dealt with groups of people other than those in the Holy Land, and He loves each and every one of His children equally. Imagine a father with, say, ten children. This father gave one of those children a rule, a law or a commandment to live by. He never told the other nine about this commandment. How much sense would it make for this father to punish the nine for failing to obey the commandment? To me, it makes no sense whatsoever. Well, God isn't going to deal with His children that way, either. The New Testament does tell us that a belief in Jesus Christ is essential for salvation. The fact that it doesn't fully explain what will happen to His children who died without never having heard of Jesus Christ does not mean they have lost their sole opportunity to do so.

Kathryn

 

[Abram]

I have never ever come across some many self-deluded people; really it beggars credulity. I mean, Ok, you can believe this stuff if you want, but I'm simply amazed that you talk like you have some experience of things you think are to come in the way of it's factual. At best it's groundless speculation, at worse, it's totally ludicrous. If you join us and repent, you'll go to heaven, if you don't , you'll still go heaven. talk about hedging your bets lol.

S

I bet God looks down or over or under and laughs at the way we all feel like we have THE right answer. But without religon this site would be pretty lame. But just as some strongly believe it, some strongly don't. Isn't free will great...

But if you hedge your bets toward heaven and die and there is, then sweet. If not oh well your dead and you don't know the differance.
Now if you hedge your bets that there is no heaven and don't even try to know God and there is a heaven, then oh crap! So your best odds is to try to know God. Win/Win

 

[finalfrogo]

I am bothered by this whole idea as well! I have been wondering about it for the past few months, and here are the realizations I have accumulated:

(The "idea" I refer to is the belief that non-Christians go to Hell)

1. The establishment of such a belief originates from the Bible, however, the Bible cannot sensibly be taken literally at every point; therefore, one chooses which parts to believe, and one chooses which parts are too questionable to hold faith in. This belief may have been incorporated into the BIble as a method of persuading people to join Christianity. You don't necessarily have to believe in it.

2. Not all Christians believe in this idea. One can still be Christian and reject this idea.

3. The idea contradicts God's compassion- the same compassion that Christianity proudly proclaims. Would you send YOUR children to a place of eternal agony just because they didn't believe you were their parent? So what if they don't believe in you? You still love them because they are your children. "Unconditional Love"

4. People are very different; therefore, there must be many religions to be suitable to them. Don't you think God would allow multiple CORRECT religions, to suit all the different types of people He created?


5. I don't think God would be so meticulous as to care HOW people worship him, as long as they worship him.

6. When people worship a single God, they are worshipping THE God. Forget all of this junk about "false Gods"... God is God, and if you worship a God, you're worshipping THE God. People may have different opinions about Him, but the focus of worship is still consistent: God.

Let me take the example in which you are a parent and you have children. They may each have differing opinions about you; but they all love you, and you love them in return.

7. There are also portions of the Bible that work against this idea.

This has been a short summary of the realizations I have experienced, though I am not trying to establish their absolute authority. I encourage you to think about it yourself, and at least consider the points I have made here. To think that Christianity is the only correct religion- that God only loves Christians and sends everyone else to Hell- is another audacious assertion made by conservative Christians.

 

[Katzpur]

Now if you hedge your bets that there is no heaven and don't even try to know God and there is a heaven, then oh crap! So your best odds is to try to know God. Win/Win

Well, we've had our disagreements, but I've got to agree with this logic!

 

[finalfrogo]

And another thing, this time about sin.

Sin is disconnectedness from God.

If others have found a way to connect with God- even if it's not the Christian way- what's wrong with that? Perhaps there are MULTIPLE ways of abolishing this disconnectedness.

 

[Abram]

The reason Christians are so strong in that Christ is the only way to heaven is that we/I believe that his death is God's way of saying he understands that we are sinners. Yes sin makes us feel far from God because of guilt. And if we accept Christ as a gift and say yes Lord I sin and I'm sorry, it allows you to shed the guilt which in turn allows you to feel closer to God. Then you start to love God because you know he'll understand and love you back...

 

[finalfrogo]

The reason Christians are so strong in that Christ is the only way to heaven is that we/I believe that his death is God's way of saying he understands that we are sinners. Yes sin makes us feel far from God because of guilt. And if we accept Christ as a gift and say yes Lord I sin and I'm sorry, it allows you to shed the guilt which in turn allows you to feel closer to God. Then you start to love God because you know he'll understand and love you back...

You make it sound like He didn't love us to begin with.

And people don't need to acknowledge that they're seperated with God; it is implied in the existence of religious practices- these practices are meant to bring one closer to God, so therefore a seperation is already implied.

I think every religion is a gift from God, to say that he both understands that we are sinners AND that we are very different from each other and require various means of reaching him.

Again, I don't want to arrogantly assert my thoughts; this is just what I think, and I'm not saying that you're wrong; nobody can claim he or she knows the absolute truth. I'm only presenting an alternative view, though I see where you're coming at and I like the way you refer to Christ as a gift from God.

 

[Smoke]

I mean you either belive what the bible says when it says ALL HAVE SINNED or you change it [...]

If ALL have sinned, does that mean Jesus has sinned?

 

[Katzpur]

If ALL have sinned, does that mean Jesus has sinned?

I think that the statement that "all have sinned" has to be looked at logically. All who are capable of having sinned, have in fact sinned. But sin requires a conscious decision to disobey God's commandments. It is impossible for someone to sin before they are capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong. I believe that this statement was directed to a group of individuals who had the maturity and mental capacity to sin. When taken in the proper context, I believe it to be an accurate statement. By the time any of us is capable of sinning, we will do so. Jesus NEVER taught the doctrine of Original Sin. We can thank Augustine for that.

 

[Abram]

You make it sound like He didn't love us to begin with.

And people don't need to acknowledge that they're seperated with God; it is implied in the existence of religious practices- these practices are meant to bring one closer to God, so therefore a seperation is already implied.

I think every religion is a gift from God, to say that he both understands that we are sinners AND that we are very different from each other and require various means of reaching him.

Again, I don't want to arrogantly assert my thoughts; this is just what I think, and I'm not saying that you're wrong; nobody can claim he or she knows the absolute truth. I'm only presenting an alternative view, though I see where you're coming at and I like the way you refer to Christ as a gift from God.

I love others thoughts thats why I'm here.

I agree with you. It was just before the death of Christ no one truly knew who God was, they just knew there was one. Thats why there was so many idols in the Old Testament time.

God gave us his only son. Jesus died in such a terriable way that the entire world now knows who God is. Not all believe, but know of him.

Plus it was all laid out in advance in a book "Bible" that belong to a nation he made "hebrews." Christ's name is now known in every part of the world. And Christ is known as Gods son.

His plan worked so well that this entire website is made to know him better. When Christ says "I'm the way" he might mean just that. My death is all the proof you need.

It's so simple that we don't see it.

 

[ChrisP]

If ALL have sinned, does that mean Jesus has sinned?

"O father, why hast thou forsaken me" - Jesus 33ish AD

Yes.

 

[TheGreaterGame]

Hey everyone, been celebrating Christmas so I haven't had a chance to respond . . . it looks like there have been some good arguementation all the way around and a lot of good conversation, while I won't be able at this time to respond to it all I would like to review some of my thought over the last couple of days in regards to the last 4 pages of posts:

1. The bible is pretty clear "ALL HAVE SINNED" that is a definite statement. Did Jesus sin? Christ is sole exception to this rule in that Hebrews 4 says that Christ was tempted in the same way and bore the same flesh yet without sin. This is why Christ understands our plight as fallen humanity. Jesus had to live a regular man on earth so that he be the innocent lamb to be slaughtered on behalf of the sinners he would save.

2. Denying the doctrine of original sin is like denying any Orthodox Christian doctrine, for example many people deny that Jesus was divine. Some belive that Mary did not neccesarily have the Virgin Brith, but instead had sexual relations with God! So it doesn't suprise me when people don't belive what is just a plain rendering of the bible. I'm sorry that the bible is not suffiecient in giving you the answers . . . but you'll belive whatever you want belive anyway.

3. If you want to label me that's fine . . . I would not call myself a "Fundamentalist", at least in since that I understand it, but if you mean I belive in the fundamentals of the bible . . . I belive in what the bible teaches as the authority as to what I should belive and how I should live . . . it doesn't mean I'm perfect, and I assure you I'm not.

Merry Christmas and May Christ bless all of you with joyful hearts

 

[joeboonda]

Even people who never heard of Christ? My gosh, you fundamentalists would drive anybody away from Christianity! No wonder Christians have such a reputation for being self-righteous and condescending. You guys really do a great job of convincing people of God's love.

I never said even people who never heard of Christ would go to Hell for they are not accountable to what they know. They ARE accountable for their sins. How this plays out we will see, God is a good judge, he will be fair. As far as self-righteous and condescending, I believe Mormons are the ones who get to Heaven on Jesus PLUS their own righteousness, so you are self-righteous, and condescending to anyone who won't accept your TRUE church. I am not self-righteous, all my righteousness is as filty rags, the more I try to wash myself, the dirtier I become. I have Christ's righteousness IMPUTED unto me, as a totally free gift, from the moment I trusted that his death on the cross paid for ALL my sins. I have His righteousness, and only His, none of mine, I only wish to tell the world of this wonderful gift, and free them from the yoke of trying to earn their way to heaven, because it is impossible, God is too Holy, the God that has always been Almighty God, never a man, never less than Omnipotent, Holy God, who's goings forth are from everlasting.

Joeboonda

 

[Katzpur]

I believe Mormons are the ones who get to Heaven on Jesus PLUS their own righteousness, so you are self-righteous, and condescending to anyone who won't accept your TRUE church.

I'm sorry you see me as self-righteous, Joe. You see, I fully expect to see not only Latter-day Saints in Heaven, but Catholics, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, pagans and atheists . Do you? I know of no group of Christians who are, as a whole, less condescending than members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Yes, I believe we are expected to obey God's commandments and that He will reward every man according to his works (Matthew 16:27). Jesus said that not everyone who calls upon His name will enter God's kingdom "but he that doeth the will of [His] Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21) He reminded us that we would abide in His love "if [we] keep [His] commandments" (John 15:10). Paul said that our Savior was "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him." (Hebrews 5:9). And James stressed that faith without works is dead. I try to make my faith a living faith. If, by doing so, I am less worthy in God's eyes than you, I plead guilty as charged.

 

[Smoke]

I think that the statement that "all have sinned" has to be looked at logically. All who are capable of having sinned, have in fact sinned. But sin requires a conscious decision to disobey God's commandments. It is impossible for someone to sin before they are capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong. I believe that this statement was directed to a group of individuals who had the maturity and mental capacity to sin. When taken in the proper context, I believe it to be an accurate statement. By the time any of us is capable of sinning, we will do so. Jesus NEVER taught the doctrine of Original Sin. We can thank Augustine for that.

I agree with you in every detail. Paul was speaking in general terms, and common sense tells us that infants have not sinned. But is the scripture revealing some truth that might not be evident without the benefit of revelation? In Christian doctrine, of course, Christ has not sinned -- and for the majority of Christians, neither has his blessed mother. So both common sense and established Christian doctrine argue against a slavishly literal interpretation of this passage of scripture.

By the way, Eastern Orthodox Christians firmly reject the Western Christian notion of original sin. For the Orthodox, "original sin" is a propensity to sin, and not inherited guilt.

 

[Smoke]

1. The bible is pretty clear "ALL HAVE SINNED" that is a definite statement. Did Jesus sin? Christ is sole exception to this rule [...]

If there's any exception at all, then a literal interpretation of this scripture is not reasonable.