A Christian persective of God and Country

[Feathers in Hair]

I think that there's no way anyone can win. If we speak our opinions about such things, and they happen to disagree with the OP, we get blasted. If we speak our opinions about people who openly bash the US, the same members bash us for being impolite.

 

[Green Gaia]

In light of the revisionist history crowd trying to undermine the importance of the faith in God our Founding Fathers....

Not my point at all. What I take issue with in the movie is the implication that if you're not Christian, you're not patriotic and American.

What I find disgusting is the hyper-sensitive negative reactions and cheap shots at the thread starter for sharing this patriotic message. I can't say I find it surprising though.

Yes, I'm sensitive about being called unpatriotic and unAmerican because of my choice of religion.

 

[Katzpur]

Oh, boy... Huge confession coming up. In FromtheHeart's OP, she said, "I hope some will enjoy it in the NATURE it was intended for love of God/family and country." My first thought was, "How nice!" Even though politics bore me to tears and I hate everything that goes on for weeks and weeks before an election, I consider myself a very patriotic person, just in terms of how much I love my country and how grateful I feel to be an American. I'm not trying to compare my country to anybody else's, so I hope nobody will read that into what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that I love America.

Anyway, the next thing I read was a series of posts lambasting FromtheHeart for posting a link to a site that supposedly implied that it is impossible to be patriotic without also being a Christian. I felt bad for her, because I couldn't imagine that this was what the site was all about. So, I jumped in and defended her. The truth of the matter is that my speakers are broken, so I was unable to even watch the video. I was out of line to even open my mouth. :sorry1: I guess I just felt like throwing in my two cents worth when I didn't have enough information to give an intelligent response. Next time, I'll think before sticking my foot in my mouth.

If the video really was just an expression of love for God, family, and country, then I'm still with you, FromtheHeart. I hope that's what it was.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

*huge hugs* Please don't worry, Kat. I tend to do the same thing.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

Not my point at all. What I take issue with in the movie is the implication that if you're not Christian, you're not patriotic and American.

Yes, I'm sensitive about being called unpatriotic and unAmerican because of my choice of religion.

I'm not going to call anyone unpatriotic or unAmerican just because you don't believe in God, but I am going to say that you guys are being completely unfair by jumping to such a conclusion and referring to this movie as "ignorant schlock" "obnoxious religious triumphalism" and telling the thread starter that she is "oblivious to your own prejudice".:149:

Respectfully, anyone who draws an implication that this movie is calling people unpatriotic or unAmerican is interposing his own insecurities about his faith onto someone else's message. That's not unpatriotic, but intellectually, it is wholly unfair.

One last thing....I have NEVER said that America was designed to be a Christian Nation, as the evidence makes it clear that that was not our Founding Father's intention. However, after reading these quotes, anyone who does not understand that the Christian faith had a great deal of impact on them and the founding of America is being willfully ignorant.

 

[Melody]

Such animosity. Nowhere did this clip say you weren't a patriot if you weren't a Christian or believed in God. The quotes used, merely put forth a view that without God, the future of this country is questionable.

Once again it appears that the words "God" and "Christian" have caused the hackles to rise....and I have to wonder why? Why so vehement that someone else believes that without God, our country is heading down a slippery slope? If you don't want to believe it...don't. Why is it necessary to try and ridicule that belief?

FTH was merely sharing something she found inspirational...as did I. It seems in this land of religious freedom where atheism, witchcraft, satanism and multi-god religions are accepted and tolerated....christianity is not. How....tolerant.

 

[Green Gaia]

I'm not going to call anyone unpatriotic or unAmerican just because you don't believe in God, but I am going to say that you guys are being completely unfair by jumping to such a conclusion and referring to this movie as "ignorant schlock" "obnoxious religious triumphalism" and telling the thread starter that she is "oblivious to your own prejudice".:149:

I don't recall saying any of those things. I think the harshest word I used was propagnda, which I still believe is appropriate.

Respectfully, anyone who draws an implication that this movie is calling people unpatriotic or unAmerican is interposing his own insecurities about his faith onto someone else's message. That's not unpatriotic, but intellectually, it is wholly unfair.

Insecurities about my faith? I'm not sure what you mean here, Glen. Could you explain further please? I can be called lots of things, but insecure about my faith is not one I would think of. I'm proud of my religion's heritage, which doesn't seem to matter since it's not Christian.

One last thing....I have NEVER said that America was designed to be a Christian Nation, as the evidence makes it clear that that was not our Founding Father's intention. However, after reading these quotes, anyone who does not understand that the Christian faith had a great deal of impact on them and the founding of America is being willfully ignorant.

I don't have a problem with the fact that America was founded by Christian people...

Oh nevermind, the non-Christian will shut up now and go blow up a damn firecracker.

:4th:

 

[Green Gaia]

I apologize if I offended anyone with stating my opinion. But I will NOT apologize for being a non-Christian in America and for being a patriot even though I know this offends some people.

 

[Melody]

I apologize if I offended anyone with stating my opinion. But I will NOT apologize for being a non-Christian in America and for being a patriot even though I know this offends some people.

Maize,

While I may have serious reservations about where our country is headed without a belief in God, I never make the mistake of assuming someone has to be a christian to be a patriot....and I doubt many other christians on this board make that mistake either.

Happy 4th of July.

 

[Green Gaia]

Thank you, Melody. Happy 4th to you too.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

Such animosity. Nowhere did this clip say you weren't a patriot if you weren't a Christian or believed in God. The quotes used, merely put forth a view that without God, the future of this country is questionable.

Once again it appears that the words "God" and "Christian" have caused the hackles to rise....and I have to wonder why? Why so vehement that someone else believes that without God, our country is heading down a slippery slope? If you don't want to believe it...don't. Why is it necessary to try and ridicule that belief?

FTH was merely sharing something she found inspirational...as did I. It seems in this land of religious freedom where atheism, witchcraft, satanism and multi-god religions are accepted and tolerated....christianity is not. How....tolerant.

:clap Very well stated.

I apologize if I offended anyone with stating my opinion. But I will NOT apologize for being a non-Christian in America and for being a patriot even though I know this offends some people.

/me offers Amy an olive branch.:foot: Perhaps I should have just said that I disagreed with the conclusion that this movie somehow implied that people had to be Christian to be patriotic and/or American. I wasn't directing my comments directly at you as much at MidnightBlue and PureX who were much more defensive in their overreactions to the movie.

 

[Smoke]

I wasn't directing my comments directly at you as much at MidnightBlue and PureX who were much more defensive in their overreactions to the movie.

I really do think religious triumphalism -- of which that video was undeniably an example -- is always obnoxious. I found the video incredibly offensive for several reasons, and I actually softened my response before sending it. I understand that fromthe heart didn't intend it to be offensive, but the OP makes it clear that she knew some wouldn't like it; I don't see what's so surprising about people saying they don't.

 

[Green Gaia]

It seems in this land of religious freedom where atheism, witchcraft, satanism and multi-god religions are accepted and tolerated....christianity is not.

I tried to ignore this, I really did Melody, but I'm sorry, you all know me, I can't keep my mouth shut when I don't agree with something...

But, I'll just say that as a non-Christian I don't agree with your above statement, because I've experienced the opposite: mainstream Christianity is the only religion that is truly accepted and tolerated in this country. All others are viewed as suspect and are looked down upon by many people. Christianity is the majority and the majority of the country is Christian and always has been, so to say that it is not accepted and tolerated doesn't make mathmatical sense to me unless you're saying that Christians don't accept and tolerate themselves.

 

[Melody]

but the OP makes it clear that she knew some wouldn't like it; I don't see what's so surprising about people saying they don't.

Well any rational person would know that you can't please everyone

It wasn't surprising that people didn't like it. It was the animosity shown -- the tone of the post and the choice of words -- that was surprising...or maybe not so surprising.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Well any rational person would know that you can't please everyone

It wasn't surprising that people didn't like it. It was the animosity shown -- the tone of the post and the choice of words -- that was surprising...or maybe not so surprising.

True, not so surprising. I've seen the same types of responses toward posts of any sort, geared toward theists and nontheists, LDS members and pagans, liberals and conservatives. I think we're all more aware of them when they're directed toward or about something we agree with or disagree with strongly.

 

[Melody]

I tried to ignore this, I really did Melody, but I'm sorry, you all know me, I can't keep my mouth shut when I don't agree with something...

But, I'll just say that as a non-Christian I don't agree with your above statement, because I've experienced the opposite: mainstream Christianity is the only religion that is truly accepted and tolerated in this country. All others are viewed as suspect and are looked down upon by many people. Christianity is the majority and the majority of the country is Christian and always has been, so to say that it is not accepted and tolerated doesn't make mathmatical sense to me unless you're saying that Christians don't accept and tolerate themselves.

LOL, Maize....you just go right ahead and disagree.

My experience has been totally the opposite. The media makes it look as if Christianity has a stranglehold on this country...but it's just not true. If it was true, I think we'd be seeing a lot more laws passed that were biblically based (e.g. abortion).

 

[Melody]

True, not so surprising. I've seen the same types of responses toward posts of any sort, geared toward theists and nontheists, LDS members and pagans, liberals and conservatives. I think we're all more aware of them when they're directed toward or about something we agree with or disagree with strongly.

Feathers,
I will respectfully disagree. I have this funny quirk of character that makes me want life to be fair for everyone. I know...I know. Life isn't fair but it doesn't stop me from trying or wishing it to be so.

I've noticed a definite hostility towards christian posts as compared to any other religion (or non). I've noticed it for well over a year and a half. I've been paying careful attention to see if I'm just noticing it because I am christian or if it's, in fact, happening. It's happening. Although I have to say that some people seem to be taking the time to word their posts in a more respectful manner which gives me hope that it was more of an unconscious attitude.

 

[Green Gaia]

Perhaps the difference is the area of the country we live in. Here in the Bible belt one is expected to be Christian and if you're not a Christian, there must be something wrong with you and you are viewed as suspect. Here we are constantly bombarded with christian images, Christians knocking on my door asking if I'm saved, Christians leaders in the local media condemning everything that is not christian and calling for their religion's laws to be put into the state's constitution, etc. I can't get away from it.

I put a chalice sticker on my car. The only reason it hasn't been vandalized yet is because most people don't know what it is. My church already has plans made for when we are vandalized, because we know it's not a matter of if, but when. There are times that I do not feel safe to be a non Christian in this area. You have to be very careful who you tell.

But the UUs don't have it nearly as bad as the Muslims and other groups.

 

[PureX]

I wasn't directing my comments directly at you as much at MidnightBlue and PureX who were much more defensive in their overreactions to the movie.

You don't get to decide for other people what's a proper reaction.

See, this is why we find these kinds of things so offensive, and why you don't understand it. You don't even try to understand it. You just assume that your view is the only reasonable view and that everyone else's view must be an "overreaction". That kind of blind arrogance toward other people's ideas and feelings is why other people often find Christians and their ideologies and expressions of faith so rude and obnoxious. The fact that you're oblivious to your own ignorance of other people's feelings and ideas doesn't excuse the rudeness and arrogance that results from it. And we tend to speak up and out loudly about it because it's obvious to us that ignoring us.

If you walked into a room of mixed race people, throwing the word "n___r" around, obviously you're going to offend some people. But you would be forgiven if when their offense was voiced, you stopped using the word. But when you ignore their objections and continue to use the offensive word because you're so sure that it's the "right" word to use, you have to expect a pretty strong reaction.

That video clip is an expression of religious bigotry. It's quite offensive to some of us. We realize that "fromtheheart" didn't see the bigotry in it so we pointed it out to her in a way that lets her know how we feel about it (not about her, but about the bigotry in the clip). So the question is, will she (and you) respect the feelings and ideas of others in the future, or will she (and you) further insult us by insisting that our feelings and ideas about this are meaningless simply because they don't align with your own?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I feel terrible that I have the urge to throw in my own two cents as one who disagreed that the video was "harmless" and simply expressing a love of faith and country. I saw it as shameless propaganda, too.



The one clip that brought tears to my eyes - and not tears of joy - was the quote from Andrew Johnson. I can't remember the exact quote, but from what I remember it stated something along the lines of this:



"I pray for the day in the future, that all citizens of the United States shall bend their knee to the cross of Jesus Christ, and cry out, 'Christ first, my country second!' I pray for the day that the flag shall not be flown on the flag pole, but nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ!"



Statements with this nature were littered throughout the video. If Andrew Johnson expressed his own allegiance to his own faith and then to his country, that's perfectly fine. Where I parted ways was his desire for ALL citizens to pledge allegiance to Christ. I can understand that the founders' faiths and/or appreciation of the Christian religion made an impact on the formation of our country, but I don't see the detractors of this video as being hypersensitive at all..............non-Christians feel threatened by these expressions.




I love this country for my personal freedom to practice my faith and for the opportunities I have as a woman and as a citizen who can openly criticize federal and local government leaders. I know I can do all these things without threats of death, torture, or exile because this country has promised to protect me.




I do not feel that this the love for my country can be shared with someone like me by watching this video. I feel that this video was only meant to be enjoyed by U.S. citizens who are Christian.........and therefore, I feel marginalized and uninvited to celebrate Independence Day with this crowd.





Perhaps that is the reason why the reactions by non-Christians are so emotional?




Peace,
Mystic