A Christian persective of God and Country

[Buttercup]

My point is that those of us who are not Christians did not deserve this disrespect.

Do you feel this disrepect from the posting of the video and the motives therein, the video itself, or the conversation that ensued?

 

[Smoke]

Do any of you really think From the Heart set out to offend each and every one of you?

I have already clearly stated that I didn't think that. However:

Do you really not understand why this is offensive to non-Christians?

Do you really not understand why some Christians -- Mennonites and Christian Quakers, for instance -- might find the martial imagery offensive?

Do you really not understand why jingoism is offensive in the first place? Why the idea that America is somehow God's chosen is offensive on several different levels?

If you saw the title had God, American Families and Country in it, then why did you even view it?

I was not aware that God, American Families and Country were the exclusive preserve of militaristic, triumphalistic, Christians. It is becoming increasingly apparent, however, that a great number of Christians believe precisely that. And it is precisely that assumption that's so offensive.

 

[Bishka]

I was not aware that God, American Families and Country were the exclusive preserve of militaristic, triumphalistic, Christians. It is becoming increasingly apparent, however, that a great number of Christians believe precisely that. And it is precisely that assumption that's so offensive.

I never said it was, did I? If there is some chance of it offending you, why watch it? I don't watch things that may havea chance of offending me, and I certainly don't get all ruffled up over something that someone meant no offense by.

And yes, I understand why people would get offended, but they don't have to. Offensiveness is a choice, not a forced feeling. If someone says my church is a cult, that I am a brain-washed sheep and that I'm a f****ng Wh**E, do I get offended? Perhaps, or perhaps, I take a deep breath and think to myself, they are misguided, they may not have realized what they were actually doing, and they probably didn't realize that they hurt my feelings when they said that. Like I said, offensisiveness is a choice.

 

[Smoke]

Do you feel this disrepect from the posting of the video and the motives therein, the video itself, or the conversation that ensued?

A and C.
As I said, I think the video is grossly offensive. It would be presumptuous of me to imagine I know fromthe heart's motives, but I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt, and to imagine that she wasn't aware just how offensive it was. The fact that so many Christians can't even understand why it's offensive is in itself frustrating and insulting, and the fact that so many Christians see it as good and natural to hold these bigoted attitudes reminds me of why I'm no longer a Christian.

 

[Smoke]

I never said it was, did I? If there is some chance of it offending you, why watch it?

Why, though, would anyone assume that a film with that title would be an offensive propaganda piece? Do you see what I'm asking?

 

[Bishka]

Why, though, would anyone assume that a film with that title would be an offensive propaganda piece? Do you see what I'm asking?

I always assume the worst. I've seen videos titled "LDS Church (and then some good word)
just to find out it's a violently offensive video.

I guess IMO, and from my POV that's how I see things. I was a bit wary of watching the video, even before reading the thread.

 

[Smoke]

I think I've said enough on this thread, so I'm going to bow out now. Anyone who doesn't understand what I'm saying by now is not likely to be convinced by anything else I say, and it's better if I just shut up.

 

[Buttercup]

A and C.
As I said, I think the video is grossly offensive. It would be presumptuous of me to imagine I know fromthe heart's motives, but I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt, and to imagine that she wasn't aware just how offensive it was. The fact that so many Christians can't even understand why it's offensive is in itself frustrating and insulting, and the fact that so many Christians see it as good and natural to hold these bigoted attitudes reminds me of why I'm no longer a Christian.

Wow....I am a completly open minded Christian...you know that. I dont see any offense in the video...I really don't, Bill.

I am terribly discouraged atm. It may be time for me to take a leave from RF.....it's been brewing for awhile anyway.

Adieu everyone!

 

[Bishka]

I think I've said enough on this thread, so I'm going to bow out now. Anyone who doesn't understand what I'm saying by now is not likely to be convinced by anything else I say, and it's better if I just shut up.

I understand, but I don't need to be convinced. I'm not sure why people need convincing, IMO.

I am also bowing out, because I'm afraid people take my comments to be offensive.

 

[Green Gaia]

"I pray for the day in the future, that all citizens of the United States shall bend their knee to the cross of Jesus Christ, and cry out, 'Christ first, my country second!' I pray for the day that the flag shall not be flown on the flag pole, but nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ!"

Why is it completely incomprehensible that the advocation of a Christian theocracy, (which this quote clearly illustrates) is offensive to some people?

Why is it completely incomprehensible that calling something for American families and then only representing the Christian POV is offensive to some people? I have a family too and it's not Christian, where does this leave me and my family?

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Maybe if it were phrased "I pray for the day in the future, that all citizens of the United States shall bend their knee to the flag, and cry out "My country first, Christ second!" I pray that the cross will not be hung in the church, but that it should be nailed to the flag."

Would people find that offensive?

 

[Melody]

Maybe if it were phrased "I pray for the day in the future, that all citizens of the United States shall bend their knee to the flag, and cry out "My country first, Christ second!" I pray that the cross will not be hung in the church, but that it should be nailed to the flag."

No, actually I wouldn't be offended...as long as you weren't forcing me to abide by *your* beliefs. Since the video was not forcing anyone to agree with it or live by it, I do not understand why people are taking offense.

On the one hand you demand that we be tolerant of your views that "as long as it's between consenting adults, it's ok". Well based on the laws in this country, it appears that it's moving in that direction...despite claims that Christians are a majority. Either Christians are not the majority....or we are more tolerant than you give us credit for.

On the other hand, you've shown extreme intolerance towards those of us who did not find the video offensive. We've been accused of bigotry and intolerance because we do feel that God and morality are intertwined....despite the fact that nobody is suggesting that we're going to imprison or burn at the stake anyone who disagrees. So essentially you want to not only control our behavior...but what we think.

Therefore, it's time for me to take my leave. Perhaps I'll see you all at some future time. I will be checking back for mail for a few days for those friends who care to keep in touch via e-mail. Take care.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I guess I'm a bit puzzled. I have never demanded that you tolerate my views. I am respectful towards my Christian friends both on RF and in person.

I am saddened that you believe that I've shown extreme intolerance, or that I want to control your behavior or your thoughts. Just as, if one person who is Christian makes a negative statement toward me (or dozens), I would not believe bad things about Christianity as a faith, I would hope that most of my Christian friends would do the same for the non-Christians among us.

The president states that he is Christian, and there are very few politicians that claim to be otherwise. I'm not sure how that makes us a country that's doomed toward secularism.

On a moderator note, if someone is directly calling someone else 'bigoted' or 'intolerant', please either report it or bring it to the attention of the staff.

 

[Smoke]

No, actually I wouldn't be offended...as long as you weren't forcing me to abide by *your* beliefs. Since the video was not forcing anyone to agree with it or live by it, I do not understand why people are taking offense.

On the one hand you demand that we be tolerant of your views that "as long as it's between consenting adults, it's ok". Well based on the laws in this country, it appears that it's moving in that direction...despite claims that Christians are a majority. Either Christians are not the majority....or we are more tolerant than you give us credit for.

On the other hand, you've shown extreme intolerance towards those of us who did not find the video offensive. We've been accused of bigotry and intolerance because we do feel that God and morality are intertwined....despite the fact that nobody is suggesting that we're going to imprison or burn at the stake anyone who disagrees. So essentially you want to not only control our behavior...but what we think.

Therefore, it's time for me to take my leave. Perhaps I'll see you all at some future time. I will be checking back for mail for a few days for those friends who care to keep in touch via e-mail. Take care.

By your own criteria, you should only be offended if we want to imprison you or burn you at the stake, shouldn't you?

To express your view is not intolerant -- even if that view is bigoted -- but to express an opposing view is?

Note that throughout this thread those of us who were offended by the video have been objecting to its content, whereas those who defend the video have been responding not to our objections, but to our right to express them. Again, if that's not bigotry, what is?

 

[Smoke]

Mystic...that's the point. It *was* meant for christians.

I found that kind of thing offensive when I was a Christian, and I'm sure there are other Christians who still do. That kind of triumphalism and bigotry don't have to be integral to Christianity.

 

[Green Gaia]

No, actually I wouldn't be offended...as long as you weren't forcing me to abide by *your* beliefs. Since the video was not forcing anyone to agree with it or live by it, I do not understand why people are taking offense.

OMG!! We've told you why!! Why should we not state that something is offensive if we find it so? Why are we expected to just roll over and take it when the Christian majority speaks? Why is simply stating our opinion and feelings offensive to the Christian majority?

On the other hand, you've shown extreme intolerance towards those of us who did not find the video offensive.

That's not fair. Feathers has done no such thing to you or anyone else here.

 

[Ðanisty]

Note also that that you've referred to PureX and those who agree with him as "you and some other non-believers", reserving the label "people of faith" for those who share not only your own faith, but your own particular view of it. If that isn't bigotry, what is?

I'm glad you pointed that out. This is something that happens all the time and while I'm sure most people don't mean anything by it, it really makes me mad! I do have faith. I am a believer. There is a lot of assumption made (and I don't think a lot of people realize they're doing this because I actually have seen some apologies when I pointed it out) that theists on this forum are Christian. Just because I don't have the same religion as everyone else doesn't mean I'm not a person of faith.

I never said it was, did I? If there is some chance of it offending you, why watch it?

Because ignoring it doesn't make it go away...it never solves any problems to pretend they aren't there and as far as I'm concerned, propaganda like that video is a problem.

 

[evearael]

*** MOD POST ***

Thread Temporarily Closed To Give Everyone A Chance To Cool Down.​

 

[Pah]

This thread is re-opened here in the Debate section due to the volitile nature of the topic. As such it was also renamed to A Christian persective of God and Country from the old title " American families God and Country?"

I would also remind membership that even though this is now classified as a debate, all participants will remain civil.

 

[Sunstone]

Folks, please keep in mind while debating that on both sides of this issue are people of good faith, kindness and intelligence. Thank you.