A bit of compelled speech in Virginia

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is not the first time that legal action has been taken or threatened on this issue. So, this is just another data point in trend analysis.

It's like you didn't read my post.

Why have you assumed that this is a situation of "compelled speech"?

 

[icehorse]

Speaking of dangerous, have you considered how dangerous this teacher’s actions could be to the health and well being of the student? This teacher could be exposing a student to abuse and bullying from other students who might not have been aware of the situation, until this ********* comes along and refers to a transgender boy by a girls name. (and please go ahead and object to my language, I dare ya).

Do you really think I'm proposing that treating kids well and free speech are an either/or choice? Come on..

 

[icehorse]

It's like you didn't read my post.

Why have you assumed that this is a situation of "compelled speech"?

Sorry, I thought that was self-evident. The teacher was suspended for not using the pronoun the student requested, correct?

 

[fantome profane]

Do you really think I'm proposing that treating kids well and free speech are an either/or choice? Come on..

I think you are unwilling to acknowledge that this teacher’s actions could threaten the health and even the lives of the children in his care.

Am I mistaken? Are you going to acknowledge that?

 

[Kooky]

Do you really think I'm proposing that treating kids well and free speech are an either/or choice? Come on..

You've established that being made to treat children with respect, instead of following God Himself telling us otherwise, is a violation of our basic human rights, so I don't think it's all that spurious to take that thought to its logical conclusion.

 

[Kooky]

Today at work, we got a memo reminding us to use gender inclusive language for internal documents.

Clearly political correctness has gone mad, mad! Won't somebody free me of this oppressive regime that compels me to write certain words and not others, that literally brutalizes me into using respectful terms? Can't you see how badly they torture me into not purposefully being rude to people different than myself?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry, I thought that was self-evident. The teacher was suspended for not using the pronoun the student requested, correct?

I'm not sure.

The article said that he was suspended for saying that he wouldn't follow the school policy, but it's not clear to me whether the issue was with compelled speech (requiring him to use kids' proper names and pronouns) or prohibited speech (forbidding him from deadnaming kids or using the wrong pronouns).

In any case, it seems that the firing got overturned not because his rights to any particular type of speech were violated, but because he had merely expressed disagreement with the policy and hadn't actually done anything improper in the classroom (yet).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Gender dysphoria is a medical condition not being trans according to the APA
Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression


Edited to include link I forgot to put

Edit again to include this:

The idea that people dont identify as the gender assigned at birth has existed for thousands of years. It was not always called such and there are many ways people would identify in this regard. They didn't all desire or want what methods of surgery may have existed such as eunuchs. Some were just ok with idenitfying as such and being perceived as such. I done forgot what region but in Africa there was a woman whose name I forgot(will look up later) who insisted on being called a king not queen. They insisted on it despite looking female and dressing as such. This was centuries ago if I remember correctly...beside cis men are still men even if feminine. And ciswomen are women if masculine. Why must trans people limit themselves? Why the double standard?

There's always been feminine males and masculine females (and they're usually what we'd call gay men or lesbians, with some bisexuals thrown in as "gender non-conformity" is far more common amongst people with those orientations). There's always been people whose expression of themselves was somewhere "in-between" (it used to be called androgyny, and they are found throughout history and across cultures. No, those people aren't trans (i.e. transsexuals/transgender as the words came to mean in the 20th century).

There's a difference between how you choose to express yourself and whether you're a man or woman. But now the two have been thrown together, and it's been stripped down to how you feel, regardless of anything else. The words used to have a specific meaning and it was a medical diagnoses, with gender dysphoria being the biggest symptom of it. But it's not the only one, as there's other things such as body dysphoric disorder which causes dysphoria towards the body, so not all people with dysphoria are transsexual/transgender.

There can be other things at play and doctors and therapists were supposed to be the ones to evaluate patients and rule out other possibilities. It was not originally some identity. Most trans people (and tons now to this day) would simply transition to their preferred sex and get on with their lives, and not really bring it up (it's called going "stealth" and most hetero transsexual men seem to go that route, along with the hetero transsexual women; that there's little to no actual real-world community for trans men specifically seems to be a result of this). There was specific criteria for diagnosing transsexualism in children and adults. Now any standards have mostly gone out the window, and turned into a free for all.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

His thinly veiled prejudice often makes itself explicit quite quickly alright, despite his frequently cloaking it in fancy language and supposed concern for "free speech."

It's especially a shame because he has some excellent material on psychology. I wish he, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris would stick to their respective fields of expertise instead of embarrassing themselves by dabbling in politics and expressing strong opinions without thorough enough understanding or knowledge of the topics in question.

I've never found Peterson to be bigoted and I've watched a number of his interviews and debates, including ones a few hours long where the interviewer was obviously trying to trap him. His ideas are actually quite boring in their normalcy.

 

[VoidCat]

There's a difference between how you choose to express yourself and whether you're a man or woman. But now the two have been thrown together, and it's been stripped down to how you feel, regardless of anything else. The words used to have a specific meaning and it was a medical diagnoses, with gender dysphoria being the biggest symptom of it. But it's not the only one, as there's other things such as body dysphoric disorder which causes dysphoria towards the body, so not all people with dysphoria are transsexual/transgender.

We both agree gender expression does not equal identity.
If theres a difference between gender expression and identity then why are you so focused on how these individuals way to be seen as and whether or not they have dysphoria? How do you know a trans person without gender dysphoria who uses gender euphoria as a determining factor isnt trans because their experience is different from yours? Are you saying you know these people better then they know themselves?


It is my opinion you refer to people as who they say they are cuz you have no place determining their identity for them.

I dont think it'd be useful for us to argue as looking back on what you have said we aren't even on the same wavelength. I believe for some folks with gender dysphoria a social transition is enough to elevate it and they still are considered trans no need to have surgery. The APA agrees. You disagree. Not everyone has the same experiences as you and gender identity means different things to different people. Heck there was one group of natives a farming community of Borneo called Dayak I remember reading about who base gender off of rice not genitals or how you feel. I could send you a link about them very fascinating(altho I read about them in more detail in a book: Gender: Ideas, Interactions, Institutions)I for one feel gender and sex are two different things so a sex change isn't required to be trans just you not idenitifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. Thats my defination of transgender. Someone who doesnt identify as the gender they were assigned that's it...I do wonder why transgender becoming a more inclusive term bothers you so much. It's been expanded to fit more people. Because people and identity are complex. Nothing is ever simple when it comes to folk. Its life definitions change as do langauge we use to describe ourselves. Many years from not the definition may change even more as will the community. Your definition is different from mine tho. I guess that's ok

 

[icehorse]

I think you are unwilling to acknowledge that this teacher’s actions could threaten the health and even the lives of the children in his care.

Am I mistaken? Are you going to acknowledge that?

Could you expand on that concern? And regardless, it's not so much the teacher that I'm interested in. What concerns me is the suspension.

 

[icehorse]

You've established that being made to treat children with respect, instead of following God Himself telling us otherwise, is a violation of our basic human rights, so I don't think it's all that spurious to take that thought to its logical conclusion.

Not at all. That's a false dilemma of your own construction.

 

[Kooky]

Not at all. That's a false dilemma of your own construction.

It is literally in the OP, in the source you supplied.

Unless you believe that adressing kids the way they want to be adressed is not a show of respect, of course.
Is that the position you're taking here? Do you believe adressing people in a fashion they desire is a form of respect, or not?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Could you expand on that concern? And regardless, it's not so much the teacher that I'm interested in. What concerns me is the suspension.

Why aren't you concerned with the teacher?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you really think I'm proposing that treating kids well and free speech are an either/or choice? Come on..

Sure seems that way to me.

 

[fantome profane]

Could you expand on that concern? And regardless, it's not so much the teacher that I'm interested in. What concerns me is the suspension.

The only thing that concerns me about the suspension is that it wasn’t permanent. Not only should he lose his job but be banned from teaching at any other institution involving children.

Try to imagine this from the perspective of a young child.

Being transgender is very hard for a young child, the emotional stress they go through leads to disturbingly high rates of suicide and suicide attempts. They face abuse and bullying from peers, and even adults. Puberty is a hard time for anyone trying to figure out who they are and how they fit in. So much more for these kids.

Imagine yourself one of these children, trying to fit in. Maybe not all of the children you go to school with know you are transgender, maybe none of them do. Until this doofus of a teacher starts using the wrong pronouns, the wrong name. He does this repeated, keeps reminding you and the others that you are different. It is insulting, it is demeaning, it is traumatic.

Can you not see how much harder that makes life for this child? Can you see that this could lead to abuse? Can you see that this might even lead to suicide?

This is not a free speech issue.

 

[icehorse]

It is literally in the OP, in the source you supplied.

Unless you believe that adressing kids the way they want to be adressed is not a show of respect, of course.
Is that the position you're taking here? Do you believe adressing people in a fashion they desire is a form of respect, or not?

of course, and your point is?..

 

[icehorse]

The only thing that concerns me about the suspension is that it wasn’t permanent. Not only should he lose his job but be banned from teaching at any other institution involving children.

Try to imagine this from the perspective of a young child.

Being transgender is very hard for a young child, the emotional stress they go through leads to disturbingly high rates of suicide and suicide attempts. They face abuse and bullying from peers, and even adults. Puberty is a hard time for anyone trying to figure out who they are and how they fit in. So much more for these kids.

Imagine yourself one of these children, trying to fit in. Maybe not all of the children you go to school with know you are transgender, maybe none of them do. Until this doofus of a teacher starts using the wrong pronouns, the wrong name. He does this repeated, keeps reminding you and the others that you are different. It is insulting, it is demeaning, it is traumatic.

Can you not see how much harder that makes life for this child? Can you see that this could lead to abuse? Can you see that this might even lead to suicide?

This is not a free speech issue.

So what definitions are you using here? The article had some ambiguity. There are many variations on the LGBTQ continuum. Were we talking about traditional pronouns or some newly crafted ones?

I can see that for some interpretations of the situation, your points would be good ones. But for other interpretations of the situation, things are not so black and white.

 

[fantome profane]

I can see that for some interpretations of the situation, your points would be good ones.

That is enough. The fact that this man could be endangering children in some situations is enough.

 

[icehorse]

That is enough. The fact that this man could be endangering children in some situations is enough.

Sure, if we knew that for sure.