A bit of compelled speech in Virginia

[Kooky]

So what definitions are you using here? The article had some ambiguity. There are many variations on the LGBTQ continuum. Were we talking about traditional pronouns or some newly crafted ones?

Why would that matter?

 

[icehorse]

Why would that matter?

Polite speech is distinct from compelled speech. It matters if we're trending towards being compelled to remember a long list of specialized pronouns or being accused of abuse.

 

[Kooky]

Polite speech is distinct from compelled speech. It matters if we're trending towards being compelled to remember a long list of specialized pronouns or being accused of abuse.

That is a rather puzzling statement, to say the least!

If we are asking whether we are being compelled to speak certain words, why would it matter what words we are compelled to speak? If I am being compelled to be merely polite, then I'm still being compelled, aren't I?

It seems very much to me as if you're argueing that to adress a person by a pronoun other than those supplied by tradition is in and of itself a kind of compulsion that we must avoid; that what makes speech "compelled" is its content, and not external circumstances that would exert pressure or force.

 

[fantome profane]

Polite speech is distinct from compelled speech. It matters if we're trending towards being compelled to remember a long list of specialized pronouns or being accused of abuse.

You really think that is the issue? That the teacher could not remember?

 

[icehorse]

That is a rather puzzling statement, to say the least!

If we are asking whether we are being compelled to speak certain words, why would it matter what words we are compelled to speak? If I am being compelled to be merely polite, then I'm still being compelled, aren't I?

It seems very much to me as if you're argueing that to adress a person by a pronoun other than those supplied by tradition is in and of itself a kind of compulsion that we must avoid; that what makes speech "compelled" is its content, and not external circumstances that would exert pressure or force.

And @fantome profane

Hey "Guys" (ha!), The OP is about trying to spot trends. You could argue that I'm making a slippery slope claim here, and indeed, I think it could be interesting to try to distinguish between trend spotting and slippery slope arguments.

So in this case, if a specific student requests to be called "he/him" or "she/her", despite their biology or appearance, I would think the teacher ought to comply. As you've pointed out, this seems respectful and supportive.

But there is a growing list of variations in the way that sexuality and gender can express themselves, and I've seen various lists of proposed pronouns, one list I believe had 81 entries?! So now we get into speculating on the can of worms we could be opening here. With a legal precedent in place, a teacher could be forced to speak 81 different pronouns to the students in "his" classes, and potentially be disciplined for failure to comply.

 

[fantome profane]

So in this case, if a specific student requests to be called "he/him" or "she/her", despite their biology or appearance, I would think the teacher ought to comply. As you've pointed out, this seems respectful and supportive.

And should lose their job permanently if they don’t.

But there is a growing list of variations in the way that sexuality and gender can express themselves, and I've seen various lists of proposed pronouns, one list I believe had 81 entries?! So now we get into speculating on the can of worms we could be opening here. With a legal precedent in place, a teacher could be forced to speak 81 different pronouns to the students in "his" classes, and potentially be disciplined for failure to comply.

You keep an eye on this for us and be sure to let us know if anything like that ever happens anywhere.

 

[Kooky]

With a legal precedent in place, a teacher could be forced to speak 81 different pronouns to the students in "his" classes, and potentially be disciplined for failure to comply.

I don't see the problem, sorry.
Would you mind explaining what exactly in this makes you feel so horrified?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So what definitions are you using here? The article had some ambiguity. There are many variations on the LGBTQ continuum. Were we talking about traditional pronouns or some newly crafted ones?

We aren't talking about any specific pronouns. The teacher was fired before any actual in-classroom misconduct occurred.

He told school administration that he would refuse to follow the policy, so they took him at his word and fired him proactively before he had the chance to actually harm a student.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Polite speech is distinct from compelled speech. It matters if we're trending towards being compelled to remember a long list of specialized pronouns or being accused of abuse.

Any teacher who finds it too onerous to remember some list of pronouns you've imagined could always just refer to all their students by name.

Since they should be memorizing their students' names anyway, there's no extra memory burden beyond what they're already doing.

Edit: and remember that you haven't even established that this case involves "compelled speech."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hey @icehorse - I have an actual example of compelled speech in the workplace:

I used to work in retail. I sold electronics in a department store. My manager insisted that we try to sell every customer on these vouchers for the store's portrait studio.

I didn't like doing it, but we'd get in trouble if we didn't do it, even though it had nothing to do with my job of selling electronics.

You agree my rights were violated, right? "Compelled speech" and all that, right?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We both agree gender expression does not equal identity.
If theres a difference between gender expression and identity then why are you so focused on how these individuals way to be seen as and whether or not they have dysphoria? How do you know a trans person without gender dysphoria who uses gender euphoria as a determining factor isnt trans because their experience is different from yours? Are you saying you know these people better then they know themselves?


It is my opinion you refer to people as who they say they are cuz you have no place determining their identity for them.

I dont think it'd be useful for us to argue as looking back on what you have said we aren't even on the same wavelength. I believe for some folks with gender dysphoria a social transition is enough to elevate it and they still are considered trans no need to have surgery. The APA agrees. You disagree. Not everyone has the same experiences as you and gender identity means different things to different people. Heck there was one group of natives a farming community of Borneo called Dayak I remember reading about who base gender off of rice not genitals or how you feel. I could send you a link about them very fascinating(altho I read about them in more detail in a book: Gender: Ideas, Interactions, Institutions)I for one feel gender and sex are two different things so a sex change isn't required to be trans just you not idenitifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. Thats my defination of transgender. Someone who doesnt identify as the gender they were assigned that's it...I do wonder why transgender becoming a more inclusive term bothers you so much. It's been expanded to fit more people. Because people and identity are complex. Nothing is ever simple when it comes to folk. Its life definitions change as do langauge we use to describe ourselves. Many years from not the definition may change even more as will the community. Your definition is different from mine tho. I guess that's ok

Basically it comes down to it to being a medical condition. Reframing it to be about "identities" and "feelings" makes it some meaningless, abstract concept that can be anything. This cheapens it and confuses things. Clearly, people who do not wish to transition to the opposite sex, medically, legally and otherwise are not the same as those who do. So it helps nothing to throw us all under the category. I've been over the various problems with this redefinition of what "transgenderism" is enough lately.

 

[ecco]

Hey "Guys" (ha!), The OP is about trying to spot trends. You could argue that I'm making a slippery slope claim here, and indeed, I think it could be interesting to try to distinguish between trend spotting and slippery slope arguments.
...
one list I believe had 81 entries?!

Simple solutions.
Call each student by their given name.
Refer to the group or a sub-group as "y'all".



ETA: I just saw that @9-10ths_Penguin had already posted...

...could always just refer to all their students by name.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Basically it comes down to it to being a medical condition. Reframing it to be about "identities" and "feelings" makes it some meaningless, abstract concept that can be anything.

No, it doesn't. It makes it a matter of identification. That's pretty clearly meaningful. And since gender is already abstract, I think it is strange that you'd use abstraction as an argument.

Clearly, people who do not wish to transition to the opposite sex, medically, legally and otherwise are not the same as those who do. So it helps nothing to throw us all under the category.

Why do you care if somebody puts you in the same category as somebody who hasn't gone through a medical or legal transition? What does it matter?

Which matters more to you? That you have exclusive ownership of a label, or that trans people who do not wish to medically transition are given the affirmation that is proven to benefit their wellbeing and give them a place in the world that they fit in?

Is your personal ownership of a word more important than the actual happiness and wellbeing of others?

 

[fantome profane]

Clearly, people who do not wish to transition to the opposite sex, medically, legally and otherwise are not the same as those who do. So it helps nothing to throw us all under the category.

Again I can’t help but think you are talking about a completely different issue than the one that was presented in this thread. Let me make two points to show why I think this.

1. This is about an elementary school teacher who was suspended. Elementary school teacher means elementary school students. These children would most likely be too young to undergo these medical procedures you think define their status. So this point may be irrelevant.

2. This complete doofus of a teacher is clearly not making any kind of discernment as to the medical or legal status. He is not saying he refuses to use the appropriate name or pronouns unless the student has demonstrated a sincere desire to transition. He is flat out refusing because according to him it is “against his religion”.

“I am a teacher, but I serve God first, and I will not affirm that a biological boy can be a girl, and vice versa, because it is against my religion, it’s lying to a child, it’s abuse to a child and it’s sinning against our God,”

He is going to impose his religious beliefs ahead of the student, their parents, their doctors, and the school policy. None of those things matter, the only thing that counts to him are his personal beliefs

Does this sound like a guy who would respect those who have transitioned? You think this guy would respect you? What pronouns do you thing a guy like this would use for someone in your situation? Is this a guy you want to defend? Is this a guy who should be teaching in an elementary school?

 

[ecco]

“I am a teacher, but I serve God first, and I will not affirm that a biological boy can be a girl, and vice versa, because it is against my religion, it’s lying to a child, it’s abuse to a child and it’s sinning against our God,”

He really said this? I guess that makes him automatically eligible for a tenured position at Liberty University.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Again I can’t help but think you are talking about a completely different issue than the one that was presented in this thread. Let me make two points to show why I think this.

1. This is about an elementary school teacher who was suspended. Elementary school teacher means elementary school students. These children would most likely be too young to undergo these medical procedures you think define their status. So this point may be irrelevant.

2. This complete doofus of a teacher is clearly not making any kind of discernment as to the medical or legal status. He is not saying he refuses to use the appropriate name or pronouns unless the student has demonstrated a sincere desire to transition. He is flat out refusing because according to him it is “against his religion”.

“I am a teacher, but I serve God first, and I will not affirm that a biological boy can be a girl, and vice versa, because it is against my religion, it’s lying to a child, it’s abuse to a child and it’s sinning against our God,”

He is going to impose his religious beliefs ahead of the student, their parents, their doctors, and the school policy. None of those things matter, the only thing that counts to him are his personal beliefs

Does this sound like a guy who would respect those who have transitioned? You think this guy would respect you? What pronouns do you thing a guy like this would use for someone in your situation? Is this a guy you want to defend? Is this a guy who should be teaching in an elementary school?

This guy got into trouble for criticizing a policy proposal at a school district meeting. He wasn't harassing people, let alone students, unless you know something I don't. As far as I'm concerned, this is hardly something to lose your job over (criticising a policy at an event where public comment is welcomed and declaring it goes against your religious views).
Virginia school district to appeal order reinstating teacher opposed to transgender pronouns

 

[fantome profane]

This guy got into trouble for criticizing a policy proposal at a school district meeting. He wasn't harassing people, let alone students, unless you know something I don't. As far as I'm concerned, this is hardly something to lose your job over (criticising a policy at an event where public comment is welcomed and declaring it goes against your religious views).
Virginia school district to appeal order reinstating teacher opposed to transgender pronouns

It is one thing to criticize a policy, it is another thing to flat out refuse to follow it. In most jobs telling your employer you refuse to follow instructions is going to get you fired.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is one thing to criticize a policy, it is another thing to flat out refuse to follow it. In most jobs telling your employer you refuse to follow instructions is going to get you fired.

As far as I know, this was a public school, and this could open them up to a religious rights violation lawsuit.

 

[fantome profane]

As far as I know, this was a public school, and this could open them up to a religious rights violation lawsuit.

It could. Religion is often used as an excuse to be a ********.

 

[Kooky]

So does that mean if I was teaching in a US public school, I'd get to sacrifice human hearts to Huitzlopochtli and get away with it on "religious rights" grounds? Or if that's too much, maybe bleed out a goat for the glory of Satan?

Somehow, I doubt that would make it past a judge to the same degree as blatant transphobia would.