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A bit of compelled speech in Virginia

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by icehorse, Jun 9, 2021.

  1. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Right not to be offended, aye?
    Well then if this legitimately affects you, I sincerely hope you are misgendered every single day of your life and maybe you can see what it’s like.
    Also manners cost nothing. You want to talk about the right not to be offended? Try conversing in Victorian England’s high society. The most snowflakiest of snowflakes ever to exist

    Lol acting like PC thing is a new thing. Bruh. Have you never heard of the 50s? Or the Hays code?
     
  2. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    This thread reminds me of Jordan Peterson's overdramatic misrepresentation of Bill C-16 as supporting "compelled speech" even though both legal experts and the text of the bill itself disagreed with his conclusion.

    The right-wing, so-called "centrist" movement that seeks to oppose equal rights under the pretense of defending "free speech" seems to have become eerily popular among irreligious and skeptical circles. From misrepresenting feminism based on a fringe minority's opinions to acting as if misgendering someone shouldn't be grounds for penalties against teachers when addressing anyone rather than just transgendered students, this "anti-woke," pseudo-intellectual trend has beeen playing into the hands of right-wing demagogues for years while pretending to promote "reason" and to criticize "both sides," sometimes while focusing more on criticizing progressive laws and movements than blatantly hateful and regressive conservative ones.
     
    #62 Debater Slayer, Jun 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
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  3. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Haha Peterson just appeared on the Prager U channel. A literal right wing propaganda channel pretending to be a valid university by using the moniker without valid authority.
    Oh the irony


    PragerU - Wikipedia
     
  4. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    His thinly veiled prejudice often makes itself explicit quite quickly alright, despite his frequently cloaking it in fancy language and supposed concern for "free speech."

    It's especially a shame because he has some excellent material on psychology. I wish he, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris would stick to their respective fields of expertise instead of embarrassing themselves by dabbling in politics and expressing strong opinions without thorough enough understanding or knowledge of the topics in question.
     
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  5. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    I’ll admit. He almost sort of had me conned at the start. I mean I was sort of primed by a lot of the skeptics I followed to defer to academic authority when I didn’t know the topic at hand. That’s what “smart people” do, after all. Not like those religious people and their ancient texts and preachers.
    In hindsight I should have noticed the red flags. Yeah he had fancy language but he wasn’t speaking on his field at all. So technically I wasn’t even deferring to academic authority to begin with lol

    You and me both. I shudder to think what Hitchens would say had he not tragically died when he did. Maybe he’d be even worse, I dunno.
    Peterson is no doubt accomplished in his field of expertise. I assume, anyway.
    But all this anti woke, anti SJW whatever stuff just seems so antithetical to what Dawkins, Harris etc all seemed to preach. At least I thought so at the time. I mean they were the ones who were mocking religious folks for being misogynistic, homophobic and even transphobic. Now they’re all pretty much edgelords, it’s weird.

    Also your comment reminded me of the complete downward spiral of the online skeptics I used to watch on YT. I mean yikes! There’s a couple who are still good. A couple who completely abandoned the anti woke stuff. But the rest don’t deserve to call themselves “skeptics” if I’m completely honest.
     
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  6. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    Yeah, I get the impression some of his fans start out admiring his competent work on psychology and end up idealizing him or treating him as some sort of intellectual leader and buying into his largely unfortunate political views.

    I completely agree. When I felt a sense of belonging years ago after coming across speeches from Dawkins, Harris, etc., it was because they ostensibly stood up for the same values I found so sorely lacking in my religious background and society. But as time went on, their harmful, anti-progressive opinions on multiple topics led me to believe I would be doing my own skepticism a disservice if I kept identifying with them and much of their base in its current state. I didn't leave religion to replace it with another form of hateful, tribalistic flavor of political and ideological thinking.

    I share your view of Hitchens. The guy even supported the Iraq War, one of the 21st century's biggest atrocities. It is indeed tragic that he passed the way he did, but that doesn't make his political views any less toxic or harmful.
     
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  7. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    I would encourage everyone to try to separate the message from the messenger ;)
     
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  8. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    I wasn’t a Peterson fan, per se. But I ran in similar circles to them. At least online. And yeah that’s sort of my impression too.
    The rhetoric and the sense of being “rational and righteous” was also somewhat intoxicating. Especially if you were an insecure fledgling nerd at the time. I think also some of Peterson’s rhetoric did appeal to young men who might have felt alienated by the increasing amount of discussions feminists were having. Not that that excuses them, just that I think the demagogues did appeal to that demographic for a reason.

    I was suckered in for a time. I wasn’t in the best headspace at the time though. Maybe I just wanted to prove myself as a skeptic. Ironically it was me reevaluating the skeptics positions that made me into a better skeptic. At least I hope it did.

    Oh yeah I almost forgot about that. Hitchens was a brilliant mind. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t have some rather harmful views all the same.
    Never meet your heroes, eh?
     
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  9. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    You seem to find these very common situations a constant violation of basic human rights, but have not even bothered to advance an argument as to why. You have commented on other people's positions in this thread, but so far refused to engage with them in any significant way, instead feeling content to snipe from the side lines and mock other people's positions.

    Is this the extent of argumentative effort you are going to put into this thread, or will there come a point where you actually start engaging with the arguments presented so far?
     
    #69 Kooky, Jun 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
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  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    The teacher in your OP certainly comes across that way.
     
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  11. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    I think a child has no legal choice until he or she becomes an adult.
     
  12. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    You know how these threads go, they go in unpredictable directions. There are several different, engaging sub-discussions going on, hooray.

    But to answer your question more directly, I think political correctness is often headed into dangerously counter-productive areas, and this case is just one data point in a larger, worrying trend. But taken alone, this data point isn't too worrying.
     
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  13. RayofLight

    RayofLight He/they

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    Gender dysphoria is a medical condition not being trans according to the APA
    Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression
    Edited to include link I forgot to put

    Edit again to include this:

    The idea that people dont identify as the gender assigned at birth has existed for thousands of years. It was not always called such and there are many ways people would identify in this regard. They didn't all desire or want what methods of surgery may have existed such as eunuchs. Some were just ok with idenitfying as such and being perceived as such. I done forgot what region but in Africa there was a woman whose name I forgot(will look up later) who insisted on being called a king not queen. They insisted on it despite looking female and dressing as such. This was centuries ago if I remember correctly...beside cis men are still men even if feminine. And ciswomen are women if masculine. Why must trans people limit themselves? Why the double standard?
     
    #73 RayofLight, Jun 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  14. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    As someone who has to constantly be defensive about reading and enjoying other bits of Peterson's works, I unequivocally agree.
     
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  15. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    And by "political correctness", you are referring to, of course, requiring teachers to respect a transgender student's gender; and not, say, the internal and external censorship and the suppression of homosexual and trans voices that has factually existed for most of the 20th century, and still exists in most areas of the world.

    Correct?
     
  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    If you'd prefer to steer things back to the OP, I'm still not clear on something: why have you assumed that this case involves compelled speech?

    Reading the article in the OP, it seems like it could just as easily be about the teacher refusing to not deadname trans kids as anything.
     
  17. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    yeah, me too.
     
  18. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    I'm trapped! I'm cornered! Ya got me! I'm hit!

    No, not really, wanna guess again?
     
  19. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    This is not the first time that legal action has been taken or threatened on this issue. So, this is just another data point in trend analysis.
     
  20. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
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    Speaking of dangerous, have you considered how dangerous this teacher’s actions could be to the health and well being of the student? This teacher could be exposing a student to abuse and bullying from other students who might not have been aware of the situation, until this ********* comes along and refers to a transgender boy by a girls name. (and please go ahead and object to my language, I dare ya).
     
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