1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A bit of compelled speech in Virginia

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by icehorse, Jun 9, 2021.

  1. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,780
    Ratings:
    +6,198
    Religion:
    spiritual anti-theist : )
    Summary: A teacher is suspended for refusing to use the gender pronoun his student wants him to use. In other words, the teacher wasn't told what he couldn't say - e.g. shouting "fire" in a theatre - instead he was told what he MUST say. This sort of thing is a huge attack against free speech laws.

    Judge Lifts Suspension Of Virginia Teacher Who Said He Won't Use Transgender Pronouns

    Now it turns out he got his job back, but the point is that compelled speech is an idea that's making inroads into our society. It's quite deadly to freedom to tell people what they MUST say.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,229
    Ratings:
    +7,658
    Imagine for a moment this was not about a transgendered child. Just a “normal” kid.

    If someone just decided to use the wrong pronouns, referring to a young boy as she and her, perhaps even calling him a girls name. Is that ok? It is just speech right? Is it compelled speech to call somebody by their name?
     
    • Winner Winner x 7
    • Like Like x 3
    • Useful Useful x 2
  3. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    59,034
    Ratings:
    +27,623
    Religion:
    Love
    Is it OK for a teacher to insult a student? Is it OK for a teacher to not use a student's name but substitute another name?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
  4. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,796
    Ratings:
    +19,027
    I'm a trans man and I think these new woke guidelines to force things on people are bs. I bet most of those children haven't even been formally diagnosed as transgender/transsexual, anyway. I read in another article that the specific guideline or rule was basically saying that you must go along with whatever the child identifies as, with no requirement of substantiation.
     
  5. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,229
    Ratings:
    +7,658
    Exactly what kind of “ substantiation” should be required?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  6. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,796
    Ratings:
    +19,027
    A doctor's diagnosis. Transsexualism is a medical condition.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  7. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    2,981
    Ratings:
    +2,836
    Religion:
    Atheist/non-religious
    That teacher should not have been reinstated. A teacher must not insult its students. That's completely unethical. A teacher has no more right to openly call one of his students stupid or an idiot or any other disparaging terms of the sort in front of a whole classroom than hitting a student. If he does he better present good apologies and have good excuses. Teachers are to act as models so that implies restriction one ones ability to speak its mind, dress however they want and behave in certain ways, at least while they are on the job. A student deserves respect and its not the teacher's job to decide the gender by which a student shall be addressed. Next what? A racist teacher will be allow to call all his black students "negro boy/girl" because that's what he sincerely believe they should be called? A teacher isn't a psychiatrist either.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    19,776
    Ratings:
    +12,064
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    I agree, although it seems that times have changed quite a bit since I was in school. I had some pretty nasty teachers.
     
  9. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,229
    Ratings:
    +7,658
    For a name change? That is absurd!

    If somebody tells me they want to be referred to by a certain name, that is what I am going to do. It is only polite. I don’t need a doctor’s note to show some basic human decency.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  10. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,796
    Ratings:
    +19,027
    It's not just a name change, obviously. It's not like my name actually being Francis and preferring to be called Frank (speaking from personal experience there, too). :rolleyes:
     
  11. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,229
    Ratings:
    +7,658
    I can’t help thinking that you are talking about something other than this issue and I am not sure what that is.

    But I know that if I go into work and start calling people by the wrong name and using wrong pronouns I will get fired, and rightfully so.
     
  12. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,796
    Ratings:
    +19,027
    No, that's not "rightfully so". That's thought control. Not everyone who says they are trans or whatever actually is. That was a job for therapists and doctors to decide but now everyone has been bullied into just going along with what people say.
     
  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    187,522
    Ratings:
    +64,711
    Religion:
    Atheist
    There's a whole lotta compelled speech when one
    works in a licensed field. Become a real estate
    broker...prescriptions & proscriptions abound.
    Your example is just newer.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,229
    Ratings:
    +7,658
    I don’t care if they are trans or not. That makes no difference (as far as this issue goes)

    If a person wants to be called Frank, I will call them Frank. Man, or Woman, trans or cis I don’t care.

    I mispronounced a woman’s name the other day (I called “Cara leena” “Cara lina”). I apologized. But if I insisted on consistently calling her the wrong name I assure you I would be in trouble.

    If a woman named Teresa wants to be called Terry, you better believe I am going to call her Terry. If a transgender person who is named Teresa wants to be called Terry I am not going to require proof before showing the same courtesy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,796
    Ratings:
    +19,027
    It does make a difference. As I said, it's not the same as wanting to be called a different form of your name. It's a sex change we're talking about here. And if it's not a sex change, than what is it? Just changing your name and pronouns socially? That's all being trans is now? I guess I better throw out my testosterone vials, needles and syringes then, because I guess I'm trying too hard. :rolleyes:
     
  16. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    5,321
    Ratings:
    +6,224
    Religion:
    Druid
    HIPAA
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,796
    Ratings:
    +19,027
    I don't see how that applies when schools must make accomodations for the disabled and so on. There's many crossover points between doctors, social workers, therapists, psychologists, etc. and schools.
     
  18. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,229
    Ratings:
    +7,658
    As far as a teacher is concerned the is just about a name change and pronouns. The medical stuff is nobody’s business except the individual.

    Right now I work with someone I think might be transgendered. I have never asked, not my business. She wants to be called a certain name and uses female pronouns, that is what I am going to do.

    Do you think I should demand to see her medical records?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    5,321
    Ratings:
    +6,224
    Religion:
    Druid
    The crossover is in the who and where these things can be addressed.

    The classroom or the teacher isn't the place.

    A person says they are a particular pronoun, you use it. No doctor's note required or even warranted.

    No one can make you disclose any medical condition even if you're transgender. If I say call me he or she or they, that's all that's required. Nothing else.
     
  20. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,796
    Ratings:
    +19,027
    When it comes to children, I would say yes. I've become quite used to just socially "going along to get along" with adults who I know for a fact aren't actually transsexuals, and they are usually quite delusional at that point and can't be helped. So it depends. I would more interested in confirming it when it's a child because there's a chance it's being forced on them (generally their mothers, as you see in various cases of women using their kids as props to live vicariously through; there's whole industries built around that).
     
Loading...