A bit of compelled speech in Virginia

[icehorse]

Summary: A teacher is suspended for refusing to use the gender pronoun his student wants him to use. In other words, the teacher wasn't told what he couldn't say - e.g. shouting "fire" in a theatre - instead he was told what he MUST say. This sort of thing is a huge attack against free speech laws.

Judge Lifts Suspension Of Virginia Teacher Who Said He Won't Use Transgender Pronouns

Now it turns out he got his job back, but the point is that compelled speech is an idea that's making inroads into our society. It's quite deadly to freedom to tell people what they MUST say.

 

[fantome profane]

Imagine for a moment this was not about a transgendered child. Just a “normal” kid.

If someone just decided to use the wrong pronouns, referring to a young boy as she and her, perhaps even calling him a girls name. Is that ok? It is just speech right? Is it compelled speech to call somebody by their name?

 

[sun rise]

Is it OK for a teacher to insult a student? Is it OK for a teacher to not use a student's name but substitute another name?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Summary: A teacher is suspended for refusing to use the gender pronoun his student wants him to use. In other words, the teacher wasn't told what he couldn't say - e.g. shouting "fire" in a theatre - instead he was told what he MUST say. This sort of thing is a huge attack against free speech laws.

Judge Lifts Suspension Of Virginia Teacher Who Said He Won't Use Transgender Pronouns

Now it turns out he got his job back, but the point is that compelled speech is an idea that's making inroads into our society. It's quite deadly to freedom to tell people what they MUST say.

I'm a trans man and I think these new woke guidelines to force things on people are bs. I bet most of those children haven't even been formally diagnosed as transgender/transsexual, anyway. I read in another article that the specific guideline or rule was basically saying that you must go along with whatever the child identifies as, with no requirement of substantiation.

 

[fantome profane]

I'm a trans man and I think these new woke guidelines to force things on people are bs. I bet most of those children haven't even been formally diagnosed as transgender/transsexual, anyway. I read in another article that the specific guideline or rule was basically saying that you must go along with whatever the child identifies as, with no requirement of substantiation.

Exactly what kind of “ substantiation” should be required?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Exactly what kind of “ substantiation” should be required?

A doctor's diagnosis. Transsexualism is a medical condition.

 

[epronovost]

That teacher should not have been reinstated. A teacher must not insult its students. That's completely unethical. A teacher has no more right to openly call one of his students stupid or an idiot or any other disparaging terms of the sort in front of a whole classroom than hitting a student. If he does he better present good apologies and have good excuses. Teachers are to act as models so that implies restriction one ones ability to speak its mind, dress however they want and behave in certain ways, at least while they are on the job. A student deserves respect and its not the teacher's job to decide the gender by which a student shall be addressed. Next what? A racist teacher will be allow to call all his black students "negro boy/girl" because that's what he sincerely believe they should be called? A teacher isn't a psychiatrist either.

 

[Stevicus]

That teacher should not have been reinstated. A teacher must not insult its students. That's completely unethical.

I agree, although it seems that times have changed quite a bit since I was in school. I had some pretty nasty teachers.

 

[fantome profane]

A doctor's diagnosis. Transsexualism is a medical condition.

For a name change? That is absurd!

If somebody tells me they want to be referred to by a certain name, that is what I am going to do. It is only polite. I don’t need a doctor’s note to show some basic human decency.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

For a name change? That is absurd!

If somebody tells me they want to be referred to by a certain name, that is what I am going to do. It is only polite. I don’t need a doctor’s note to show some basic human decency.

It's not just a name change, obviously. It's not like my name actually being Francis and preferring to be called Frank (speaking from personal experience there, too).

 

[fantome profane]

It's not just a name change, obviously. It's not like my name actually being Francis and preferring to be called Frank (speaking from personal experience there, too).

I can’t help thinking that you are talking about something other than this issue and I am not sure what that is.

But I know that if I go into work and start calling people by the wrong name and using wrong pronouns I will get fired, and rightfully so.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I can’t help thinking that you are talking about something other than this issue and I am not sure what that is.

But I know that if I go into work and start calling people by the wrong name and using wrong pronouns I will get fired, and rightfully so.

No, that's not "rightfully so". That's thought control. Not everyone who says they are trans or whatever actually is. That was a job for therapists and doctors to decide but now everyone has been bullied into just going along with what people say.

 

[Revoltingest]

Summary: A teacher is suspended for refusing to use the gender pronoun his student wants him to use. In other words, the teacher wasn't told what he couldn't say - e.g. shouting "fire" in a theatre - instead he was told what he MUST say. This sort of thing is a huge attack against free speech laws.

Judge Lifts Suspension Of Virginia Teacher Who Said He Won't Use Transgender Pronouns

Now it turns out he got his job back, but the point is that compelled speech is an idea that's making inroads into our society. It's quite deadly to freedom to tell people what they MUST say.

There's a whole lotta compelled speech when one
works in a licensed field. Become a real estate
broker...prescriptions & proscriptions abound.
Your example is just newer.

 

[fantome profane]

No, that's not "rightfully so". That's thought control. Not everyone who says they are trans or whatever actually is. That was a job for therapists and doctors to decide but now everyone has been bullied into just going along with what people say.

I don’t care if they are trans or not. That makes no difference (as far as this issue goes)

If a person wants to be called Frank, I will call them Frank. Man, or Woman, trans or cis I don’t care.

I mispronounced a woman’s name the other day (I called “Cara leena” “Cara lina”). I apologized. But if I insisted on consistently calling her the wrong name I assure you I would be in trouble.

If a woman named Teresa wants to be called Terry, you better believe I am going to call her Terry. If a transgender person who is named Teresa wants to be called Terry I am not going to require proof before showing the same courtesy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That makes no difference (as far as this issue goes)

It does make a difference. As I said, it's not the same as wanting to be called a different form of your name. It's a sex change we're talking about here. And if it's not a sex change, than what is it? Just changing your name and pronouns socially? That's all being trans is now? I guess I better throw out my testosterone vials, needles and syringes then, because I guess I'm trying too hard.

 

[The Hammer]

A doctor's diagnosis. Transsexualism is a medical condition.

HIPAA

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

HIPAA

I don't see how that applies when schools must make accomodations for the disabled and so on. There's many crossover points between doctors, social workers, therapists, psychologists, etc. and schools.

 

[fantome profane]

It does make a difference. As I said, it's not the same as wanting to be called a different form of your name. It's a sex change we're talking about here. And if it's not a sex change, than what is it? Just changing your name and pronouns socially? That's all being trans is now? I guess I better throw out my testosterone vials, needles and syringes then, because I guess I'm trying too hard.

As far as a teacher is concerned the is just about a name change and pronouns. The medical stuff is nobody’s business except the individual.

Right now I work with someone I think might be transgendered. I have never asked, not my business. She wants to be called a certain name and uses female pronouns, that is what I am going to do.

Do you think I should demand to see her medical records?

 

[The Hammer]

I don't see how that applies when schools must make accomodations for the disabled and so on. There's many crossover points between doctors, social workers, therapists and schools.

The crossover is in the who and where these things can be addressed.

The classroom or the teacher isn't the place.

A person says they are a particular pronoun, you use it. No doctor's note required or even warranted.

No one can make you disclose any medical condition even if you're transgender. If I say call me he or she or they, that's all that's required. Nothing else.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As far as a teacher is concerned the is just about a name change and pronouns. The medical stuff is nobody’s business except the individual.

Right now I work with someone I think might be transgendered. I have never asked, not my business. She wants to be called a certain name and uses female pronouns, that is what I am going to do.

Do you think I should demand to see her medical records?

When it comes to children, I would say yes. I've become quite used to just socially "going along to get along" with adults who I know for a fact aren't actually transsexuals, and they are usually quite delusional at that point and can't be helped. So it depends. I would more interested in confirming it when it's a child because there's a chance it's being forced on them (generally their mothers, as you see in various cases of women using their kids as props to live vicariously through; there's whole industries built around that).