(3:7) The punishment of those who follow unclear

[InvestigateTruth]

The hadiths about Imam Mahdi being from Hassan Alaskari are many in Shiite sources and even Sunni Sufi sources. If the hadiths you quote support what you say which is a big if why abandon many hadiths for those. Plus if Bahaallah doesn’t accept the Mahdi it contradicts albayan from the Bab and what it said about the four Safirs of Imam Mahdi.

It is called Bida. In Shia, God can say something but later changes what He said. He can postpone it to future. It is a Test from God. So, those who believe, will say, God does as He wants.
We have witness of this in the Quran, in the story of Imran and Birth of Jesus, which was postponed.
So, I believe it had same purpose in Islam. It appeared that the 11th Imam will have a child. Then God changed this, to test the believers. So, believers will say, God does as He wants.

I am not aware if there is any verse in Quran that tells us the Qaim is born, and then He will disappear for a long time .
Prophet and Imams said, we are only to accept a Hadith if, it is in agreement with Quran.

. Plus if Bahaallah doesn’t accept the Mahdi it contradicts albayan from the Bab and what it said about the four Safirs of Imam Mahdi.

True, it appears to contradict.
The Bab, claimed to be the Qaim though. So, the claim of the Bab also contradicts with the belief that there was a 12th Imam who was somewhere hidden.
In our view, the Messengers gradually fulfil or reveal who they are. They don't want to disturb people, by confronting their firm established beliefs. So, when the Bab came, most Shias believed the Imam was born long ago, but hidden. The Bab appeared in the beginning that He is also agreeing with this belief. Then gradually He explained things differently.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

From Quran, we can deduce there is a witness who is the guide and leader of the time, in all times. This is a clear meaning. Therefore, we can deduce after Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a), there had to be an Imam/Guide who replaces him.

Among the proofs is verse 13:7 which says there is a guide for every people who can perform miracles for them and show them such signs.


H 482, Ch. 10, h 1 A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd and Fudala ibn Ayyub from Musa ibn Bakr from al-Fudayl who has said that he asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah: "For every people there is a guide." (13:7) The Imam (a.s.) said that every Imam is the guide in his own time."

H 483, Ch. 10, h 2 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Muhammad ibn abu ‘Umayr from ibn ’Udhayna from Buray al-‘Ijli from Ima abu Ja'far (a.s.) who has said the following about the words of Allah. "(Muhammad), you are only a Warner. For every nation there is a guide. (13:7)" The Imam (a. s.) said that at all times there is a guide from us who guides people to the teachings of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) Of the guides who possess Divine authority after the holy Prophet (s.a.) is Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) and his successors one after the other.

H 484, Ch. 10, h 3 Al-Husaym ibn Muhammad al-Ash‘ari has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Jumhur from Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il from Sa‘dan from abu Basir who has said that he asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah. "(Muhammad), you are only a Warner. For every nation there is a guide." (13:7) The Imam (a. s.) said, "The Holy Prophet is the Warner and Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) is the guide. O abu Muhammad, is there a guide today?" I said, "Yes, may Allah take my soul in service for your cause, there has always been a guide from you one after the other until this (noble task) is being carried on by your own self." The Imam (a.s.) said, "O abu Muhammad, may Allah grand you blessings. Had it been like the coming of guidance to man and then he would die with his death the guidance would also die and the whole book would die, but it lives and it continues with new generations as it has done so with the people in the past."

H 485, Ch. 10, h 4 Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from Safwan from Mansur from ‘Abd al-Rahim al-Qusayr who has said that asked Imam abu Ja'far (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah, ". . . For every nation there is a guide. (13:7)" The Imam (a.s.) said, "The Holy Prophet (s.a.) is the Warner and Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) is the guide. Let it be known, I swear by Allah, that guidance never departed us, it is with us and will always be with us until the Day of Judgment."


Sunni sources confirm this as well:


وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ
“And those who disbelieved say, “Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?” You are only a Warner, and for every people is a Guide.” (13:7)

Narrated from Ibn Abbas:
“When this verse (13:7) was revealed, the Prophet (saww) placed his hand upon his chest and said, “I am the warner” and then moved his hand to the shoulder of Ali (as) and said, “And you are the guide O’Ali. Through you the guided ones will be guided after Me“
[Source: Tafseer al-Tha’labee, Vol. 5, Pg. 272 – Online Link]

Authors note: The words ‘After Me’ are important here as they seem to indicate that Ali (as) is the guide from whom guidance is obtained after the Holy Prophet (saww). This is another indication towards Ali (as) being the successor of the Prophet (saww)

Also in the scan, it says, the Nabi (s) said "the warner is me, and the guide is a man from bani-hashim"

Yes, the Qaim is from the Bani Hashim. We also believe this, as the Bab was from lineage of Fatima and Hussein.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I also don't see Iblis dead personally. You guys believe he is dead?

In a sense no. There is still evilness in the world.
In Hadithes, it is also said, when the Qaim comes, there will be more wars, and more disbelief.

It is also said:
عن النبي ﷺ أنه قال: بدأ الإسلام غريباً وسيعود غريباً كما بدأ فطوبى للغرباء

Islam was alone from beginning, and will be alone at the End (when Qaim comes). Happy are the alone ones.

This means Islam will be a minority at the end.


Now, these Hadithes have Quranic evidence. I can quote from Quran confirming these Hadithes.

It is said in Hadithes, that there will be very few people with the Qaim.
Now, consider that it is said there will be 313 followers coming from Khurasan with a black Banner.
Khurasaan Has millions people. Out of all these only 313 !!!!
In History of Bahai faith, this happened. There was group of 313 people who had a black flag coming from Khurasan. Most or all of them were killed.

But it appears that it was said when Qaim comes iblis will be killed. I believe this became Bida, or change on divine will. Imam Baghir said, many of Hdithes we said about Qaim can become Bida. He names only 5 things that cannot become Bida.

 

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Yes, the Qaim is from the Bani Hashim. We also believe this, as the Bab was from lineage of Fatima and Hussein.

The point is there is always a Guide on earth. After Hassan Al-askari (A) till now there has to be a Guide.

 

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I am not aware if there is any verse in Quran that tells us the Qaim is born, and then He will disappear for a long time .

There are actually many. The stars that disappear and reappear are about Imams (a) being in public but sometimes in Ghayba. The Quran alludes to this. Also, the way Elyas (a) is mentioned, it becomes obvious he took the position of Guide between Isa (a) and Mohammad (s) and came back.

The notion there is always a witnes/Imam/guide on earth in all times is both mutuwatur in Hadiths as well Quran is clear in this regard.

 

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I also posted this about the relationship of proof, it's hiddenness, and how the day of judgment relates to all that:

Salam

The Quran contains an explanation to all things. One of these is how it emphasizes on the issue of proof and day of judgment, and why God to some degree hides his proofs. On the day of judgment, the signs of God's Authority there is no room for denial:

لَيْسَ لِوَقْعَتِهَا كَاذِبَةٌ

There is to it's passing no denier.
(56:2)

اسْتَجِيبُوا لِرَبِّكُمْ مِنْ قَبْلِ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ يَوْمٌ لَا مَرَدَّ لَهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ ۚ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ مَلْجَإٍ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَمَا لَكُمْ مِنْ نَكِيرٍ | Respond to your Lord before there comes a day for which there will be no revoking from Allah. On that day you will have no refuge, nor will you able to have denial| Ash-Shura : 47

When the proof is manifest and is forced upon people, their will is no longer sincere, for this reason the Quran says:

إِنَّ السَّاعَةَ آتِيَةٌ أَكَادُ أُخْفِيهَا لِتُجْزَىٰ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا تَسْعَىٰ | Indeed the Hour is bound to come: I will have it hidden, so that every soul may be rewarded by what for it strives. | Taa-Haa : 15

The proof is related to the power in the Prophets and Witnesses:

وَقِيلَ مَنْ ۜ رَاقٍ

And it will be said who is the enchanter?


إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ يَوْمَئِذٍ الْمَسَاقُ

Towards your Lord is the driving

And said:

وَجَاءَتْ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ مَعَهَا سَائِقٌ وَشَهِيدٌ | Every soul will come accompanied by a driver and a witness: | Qaaf : 21

And said:

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ مِنْ كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا ثُمَّ لَا يُؤْذَنُ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَلَا هُمْ يُسْتَعْتَبُونَ | The day We shall raise a witness from every nation, the faithless will not be permitted nor will they be asked to propitiate | An-Nahl : 84

And said:

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ ۖ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ شَهِيدًا عَلَىٰ هَٰؤُلَاءِ ۚ وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ تِبْيَانًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً وَبُشْرَىٰ لِلْمُسْلِمِينَ | The day We raise in every nation a witness against them from among themselves, We shall bring you as a witness against these (people of your time). We have sent down the Book to you as a clarification of all things and as guidance, mercy and good news for the submitters | An-Nahl : 89

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا | The day We shall summon every group of people along with their Leader, then whoever is given his book in his right hand—they will read it, and they will not be wronged so much as a single date-thread. | Al-Israa : 71


And Mohammad (s) is been called the clear proof:

لَمْ يَكُنِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ مُنْفَكِّينَ حَتَّىٰ تَأْتِيَهُمُ الْبَيِّنَةُ | The faithless from among the People of the Book and the polytheists were not set apart [from the community of the faithful] until the proof had come to them: | Al-Bayyina : 1

رَسُولٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ يَتْلُو صُحُفًا مُطَهَّرَةً | A Messenger from Allah reciting purified scriptures, | Al-Bayyina : 2

And the degree his proof is hidden and manifest, is up to God


وَيَقُولُونَ لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۖ فَقُلْ إِنَّمَا الْغَيْبُ لِلَّهِ فَانْتَظِرُوا إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الْمُنْتَظِرِينَ | They say, ‘Why has not some sign been sent down to him from his Lord?’ Say, ‘the hiding (of the sign) is for God. So wait. I too am waiting along with you.’ | Yunus : 20


And hence belief in the hidden is about belief in God's proof and signs:

الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ | who believe in the hidden, maintain the prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them; | Al-Baqara : 3

And said:

عَنِ النَّبَإِ الْعَظِيمِ | [Is it] about the Great Tiding, | An-Naba : 2

And regarding reward Mohammad (s) is accused of seeking:

وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ نَبَأَهُ بَعْدَ حِينٍ | and you will surely learn its tidings in due time.’ | Saad : 88

Which is explained to be:

ذَٰلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ ۗ قُلْ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ ۗ وَمَنْ يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ | Such is the good news that Allah gives to His servants who have faith and do righteous deeds! Say, ‘I do not ask you any reward for it except the love of the kin.’ Whoever performs a good deed, We shall enhance its goodness for him. Indeed Allah is Forgiving, Appreciative. | Ash-Shura : 23


And hence this love is connected to goodness and faith in God as they are unseen signs of God that God manifests or hides to whatever degree he wishes.

And this is addresses why God hides and manifests proofs, but the question is why miracles in the past and not now?

The Quran says:

وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا | Nothing keeps Us from sending signs except if the former people denied them. We gave Thamud the she-camel as an eye-opener, but they wronged her. We do not send the signs except as warning. | Al-Israa : 59

And hence previous generations actions have caused the situation in which the Guide who can perform such signs is hidden:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ | The faithless say, ‘Why has not some sign revealed regarding him from his Lord?’ You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people. | Ar-Ra'd : 7

And God says:

اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ۖ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ ۖ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ مُبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لَا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ ۚ نُورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ ۗ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ | Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is a niche wherein is a lamp—the lamp is in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star—lit from a blessed olive tree, neither eastern nor western, whose oil almost lights up, though fire should not touch it. Light upon light. Allah guides to His Light whomever He wishes. Allah draws parables for mankind, and Allah has knowledge of all things. | An-Noor : 35

فِي بُيُوتٍ أَذِنَ اللَّهُ أَنْ تُرْفَعَ وَيُذْكَرَ فِيهَا اسْمُهُ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ فِيهَا بِالْغُدُوِّ وَالْآصَالِ | In houses Allah has allowed to be raised and wherein His Name is celebrated; He is glorified therein, morning and evening, | An-Noor : 36

رِجَالٌ لَا تُلْهِيهِمْ تِجَارَةٌ وَلَا بَيْعٌ عَنْ ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ وَإِقَامِ الصَّلَاةِ وَإِيتَاءِ الزَّكَاةِ ۙ يَخَافُونَ يَوْمًا تَتَقَلَّبُ فِيهِ الْقُلُوبُ وَالْأَبْصَارُ |Men whom neither trade nor bargaining distracts from the remembrance of Allah and the maintenance of prayer and the giving of zakat. They are fearful of a day wherein the hearts and the sights will be transformed, | An-Noor : 37

And said:

فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالنُّورِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلْنَا ۚ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرٌ | So have faith in Allah and His Apostle and the light, which We have revealed, and Allah is well aware of what you do. | At-Taghaabun : 8


Thus the philosophy of hiding and manifesting is explained in Quran. God's proof is always here, but to what degree he is hidden or manifest, is up to God. Right now there is no miracles in the open, but that's because of what previous generations did with them and oppressed the followers who believed in them.

I find that it's a major sign of Quran being from God, about how much it emphasized on the issue of proof, to what degree God manifests or hides it, and for what reasons. It shows God is aware people want proof.

Concerning the sky reality where is the light of God and spiritual lights, Quran also said:

وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 35


This shows if Mohammad (s) can connect people to this reality, he would, but it's not his fault people turn away.

Surah Hijr expands on why he doesn't connect them:

وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ | Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ | they would surely say, ‘Indeed a spell has been cast on our eyes; indeed, we are a bewitched lot.’ | Al-Hijr : 15

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ | Certainly We have made great stars in the sky and adorned them for the onlookers, | Al-Hijr : 16

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ | and We have guarded it from every outcast Satan, | Al-Hijr : 17

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ | except someone who may eavesdrop, whereat there pursues him a manifest flame. | Al-Hijr : 18


And this returns to the issue of why proof is not forced upon people:

قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ أَرَأَيْتُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّي وَآتَانِي رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِنْدِهِ فَعُمِّيَتْ عَلَيْكُمْ أَنُلْزِمُكُمُوهَا وَأَنْتُمْ لَهَا كَارِهُونَ | He said, ‘O my people! Tell me, should I stand on a manifest proof from my Lord, and He has granted me His own mercy—though it be that you are blinded to it—shall we force it upon you while you are averse to it? | Hud : 28

 

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@InvestigateTruth 13:7 is in context of real time signs in form of miracles and proofs. Although, they were shown such signs, the Quran is saying Mohammad (s) is only a warner, because the signs don't necessarily cause them to believe, and also says "and for every people there is a Guide", meaning a guide that can perform such miracles for them in real time.

In Surah Isra, it shown why God sometimes does not send with miracles. But yet, for every people, there is a Guide who can perform these miracles.

Since, there is no miracles in public now and has not been for a long time, we deduce that the Imam is in Ghayba (hidden). This was the case between Isa (a) and Mohammad (s) and Elyas (a) was the Guide on earth, this is why Quran says:

"And Zakariya, and Yahya and Isa and Elyas and all of the righteous".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are actually many. The stars that disappear and reappear are about Imams (a) being in public but sometimes in Ghayba. The Quran alludes to this. Also, the way Elyas (a) is mentioned, it becomes obvious he took the position of Guide between Isa (a) and Mohammad (s) and came back.

The notion there is always a witnes/Imam/guide on earth in all times is both mutuwatur in Hadiths as well Quran is clear in this regard.

Yes. Do you know what year Imam Askari passed away? According to Shia history, year 260AH. Right?



"A number of our people has narrated from Sa‘d ibn ‘Abdallah from Ahmad ibn al-Hassan from ‘Umar ibn Yazid from al-Hassan ibn al-Rabi ‘ al-Hamdani who has said that Muhammad ibn Istaq narrated to us from ’Usayd ibn Tha‘laba from ’Umm Hani who has said the following. "Once I met abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ali (a.s.) and asked him about he meaning of "I do not (need to) swear by the orbiting (81:15) stars which are visible during the night (81:16) and sit during the day,. . ". (81:17)" The Imam (a.s.) said, "Al-Khunnas, refers to the imam who will disappear in his time when the knowledge about him will be cut off from people in the year two hundred sixty. Then he will reappear like a shooting star in the dark night. If you will attain such time it will light up your eyes with delight."

When they Imams said that, there will be a time your Imam will disappear, they meant the 11th Imam, who passes away in the year 260AH. As this Hadith says year 260AH, which according to history of Shia is the year 11th Imam passed away.

Because according to Hadithes, it is as if there is only One Imam. There is no difference in reality between any of the Imams. This is why, it is like, a star, that appears, and when disappears, another stars appears, as if it was that same star:

Baghdadi from Wahab ibn Shadhan from al-Hassan ibn abu al-Rabi‘ from Muhammad ibn Ishaq from ’Umm Hani who has said the following. "I asked abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ali (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah. "I do not (need to) swear by the orbiting (81:15) stars which are visible during the night (81:16) and sit during the day,. . ". (81:17)" She has said that then he said, "It refers to the Imam who will disappear in the year two hundred sixty then he will rise like a shooting star that shines during the dark night. If you would attain such time it will brighten your eyes with happiness.


So, the manifestation of the Qaim is just as if your Imam Askari, or every other Imam appears.
Even as is recorded that, when Qaim come, He says, who ever sees me, has seen all other Imams and prophets.



But, when in other Hadithes, it says there are two disappearances of the Mahdi, they are for after His rise. One of them is His imprisonment, similar to Joseph.

 

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The Imam (a) went to Ghayba as soon as Imam Hassan Al-Askari (A) died. And Quran is clear there is a witness/guide/leader in each time while Bahais have no Guide/Leader/Witness right now.

The only consistent religion with Quran is Twelver Shiism.

 

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There is also the notion that per Salawat (long one) - Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s) and Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim, although related by lineage, are two different Ahlulbayts.

The Mahdi (a) being from Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s) means definitely he is the son of Hassan Al-Askari (a). That and there is no reason to assume Bida thing especially since the notion you described contradicts Quran when it has Musa (a) saying "it's upon me to say upon God only the truth".

The Bab would have to be a founder by the period and by the type of religion he brought, and he had no Ahlulbayt neither did Baha'allah have one (he had a couple successors, then rest left Bahaism).

To me Bahaism contradicts Quran on so many levels.

(1) Seal of Anbiya means there is no divine books to be revealed after to anyone.
(2) Twelve Successors is always been to the founder, while Bab did not have that. The 24 thing is trying to mimic with something unrelated as they aren't the level of him like Imams are same level of Mohammad (s). Like Every Ahlulbayt of the past ascend together and we aren't supposed to distinguish between the first, 2nd, 3rd... 10th,11th, 12th in terms of importance.
(3) There is no Imam in present time while Quran shows there is a witness/leader/guide in all times and hadiths confirm this interpretation.
(4) The day of judgment is clearly a day that has nothing to do with Bahai concept described.
(5) The Quran shows there is a connecting name of God/face of God in all times while Bahais don't have such a leader at this time, hidden or manifest.

It relies on unclear things from Quran and Sunnah, and hadith searching to see hadiths in line with it and interpret those hadiths in a weird way leaving out the classical interpretations of them that have verification in most hadiths.

It's exactly with respect to Quran 3:7 following that which is unclear from Quran which is forbidden.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Imam (a) went to Ghayba as soon as Imam Hassan Al-Askari (A) died. And Quran is clear there is a witness/guide/leader in each time while Bahais have no Guide/Leader/Witness right now.

The only consistent religion with Quran is Twelver Shiism.

I understand it differently. When Quran or Hadith says, there is always a Guide or Leader, this means, there is no Last or Final guide. So, whenever the End of a People comes, God sends a new Messenger to guide them. God never leaves us alone. But to us, it does not mean God has put a guide, 24 hours, 7 days, 365 days on earth. God in every age send down a revelation. Then for as long as the Book is with people, and its Laws are suitable for people, then the Book itself is the guide.
For, appearance of Messengers, is like rising the Sun. Just as there must be Day, there must be night.
These are the verses from Quran to support my view:


"And for all people a term has been set: and when [the end of] their term approaches, they can neither delay it by a single moment, nor can they hasten it. O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief" 7:34-35

This verse tells us, each Ummah, have an end time. When their end time comes, God does not wait for an hour, then He sends His messenger.
A Hadith in Shia collection, says, this end for people of Islam is 1000 years, and then God gathered them.


"We sent messengers before you, and We assigned for them wives and offspring. No messenger could bring a sign except with the permission of God. For every era is a scripture. God annuls or confirms whatever He wills [of His earlier messages] -for with Him is the source of all revelation" 13:38-39

This verse goes with the other verse that every people have a period. For the period of people God sends down a Scripture as Guide. This guide is sufficient and holds for that appointed period.
When you have the Book which has all the guidance, why do we need a person on earth to guide? Moreover, if this is for praying to or intercession, the Messengers are spiritually alive. So, you can pray to Muhammad, or Imam Ali. What is the need to keep a person alive for long time?

Imam Riza said, if God wanted to prolong life of a person for human needs, He would have kept Muhammad alive.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is also the notion that per Salawat (long one) - Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s) and Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim, although related by lineage, are two different Ahlulbayts.

The Mahdi (a) being from Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s) means definitely he is the son of Hassan Al-Askari (a). That and there is no reason to assume Bida thing especially since the notion you described contradicts Quran when it has Musa (a) saying "it's upon me to say upon God only the truth".

We have a different view.
For example, Imam Ali was not Son of Muhammad either. But He was an Imam.
So, the Qaim, is said to be from lineage of Muhammad.
It is upto God to do Bada, in any ways He wants.

 

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We have a different view.
For example, Imam Ali was not Son of Muhammad either. But He was an Imam.
So, the Qaim, is said to be from lineage of Muhammad.
It is upto God to do Bada, in any ways He wants.

But he was his cousin. Yayha (a) and Isa (a) were cousins as well.

Lut (a) was nephew of Ibrahim (a).

 

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God never leaves us alone. But to us, it does not mean God has put a guide, 24 hours, 7 days, 365 days on earth.

This ignores the spiritual position of the Imam as light as explained by Quran and Sunnah. The hadiths are very explicit the earth is never even for a moment left without an Imam (a).

In other words, where it's clear Quran and Sunnah, you deny. Everything is resorted to sophistry. The Quran says there is a witness in all times and that witness is the Imam.

You can't be told anything, you just twist it to your desires. Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) hadiths thankfully are not at the mercy of your sophistry games.

Your sophistry games only make you misguided and worthy of God's punishment. It won't misguide me for sure.

The Sufis even know the earth is never left without an Imam because it will be destroyed and can't have light or life from God without an Imam and Pole of time.

You know nothing of Quran if you deny the Imam of your time.

 

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For example this is just from Kitabal Ghayba:

Chapter 8: Allah does not leave the world with no authority (Hujjah)


(1) Some of the famous speech of Imam Ali (as) to Kumayl bin Ziyad an-Nakh’iy:

Kumayl said: “Amirul Mo'mineen (as) held my hand and took me with him towards the graveyard. When we reached the desert (went out of the country), he sighed deeply and said (after a long speech):

ولا تخلو الأرضُ من حجةٍ قائم لله بحجته إما ظاهر معلوم، وإما خائف مغمور، لئلا تبطلَ حجج الله وبيناته.

“The earth does never remain without a Hujjah; either apparent and known or afraid and unknown lest Allah’s proofs and signs will be invalid.”1

Does the statement of Imam Ali (as) “apparent and known” not refer to the known person and the known place and does his statement “afraid and hidden” not refer to the disappearing person and the unknown place?

2 - وأخبرنا أحمد بن محمد بن سعيد بن عقدة قال: حدثنا محمد بن المفضل وسعدان بن إسحاق وأحمد بن الحسين بن عبد الملك ومحمد بن أحمد القطواني قالوا: حدثنا الحسن بن محبوب، عن هشام بن سلام، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، عن أبي إسحاق السبيعى قال: سمعت من يوثق به من أصحاب أمير المؤمنين يقول: قال أمير المؤمنين في خطبة خطبها بالكوفة طويلة ذكرها:

اللهمّ فلا بدَّ لك من حجج في أرضك حجة بعد حجة على خلقك، يهدونهم إلى دينك، ويعلمونهم علمك لكيلا يتفرقَ أتباع أوليائك، ظاهر غير مطاع، أو مكتتم خائف يترقب، إن غاب عن الناس شخصُهم في حال هدنتهم في دولة الباطل فلن يغيب عنهم مبثوثُ علمهم، وآدابُهم في قلوب المؤمنين مثبتة، وهم بها عاملون، يأنسون بما يستوحش منه المكذبون ويأباه المسرفون بالله. كلام يكال بلا ثمنٍ لو كان مَن يسمعه بعقله فيعرفه ويؤمن به ويتبعه، وينهج نهجه فيفلح به؟ ثم يقول: فمن هذا؟ ولهذا يأرز العلم إذ لم يوجد حملةً يحفظونه ويؤدونه كما يسمعونه من العالم.

(2) Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed bin Oqda narrated from Muhammad bin al-Mufadhdhal, Sa’dan bin Iss’haq, Ahmad bin al-Husayn bin Abdul Melik and Muhammad bin Ahmad al-Qatawani all narrated from al-Hasan bin Mahboob from Hisham bin Salim from Abu Hamza ath-Thimali that Abu Iss’haq as-Subay’iy had said: I have heard one of the trusted companions of Imam Ali (as) saying that Imam Ali (as) has said in a long speech he made in Kufa:

“O Allah, it must be that You have authorities on Your earth one after the other over Your people to guide them to Your religion and to teach them Your knowledge lest the followers of Your guardians separate. They (the authorities) are either apparent without being obeyed or afraid, hidden and awaiting. If their persons are absent from people during their truce in the state of untruth, their knowledge will never be absent from them (from people). Their principles are fixed in the hearts of the believers, who act according to these principles. They become pleasant with what the liars become unpleasant and with what those, who are indifferent to the obligations of Allah, deny. Speech that is measured without any price; but is there any one hearing it with his mind, perceiving it, believing in it and following it as an ideal to succeed with it? And who is he? Therefore knowledge is lost because there is no one to bear it, to preserve it and to teach it as it is heard from the ulama.”

Then he said after a long speech:

اللهم وإني لأعلم أن العلم لا يأرز كله ولا ينقطع مواده فإنك لا تُخلي أرضك من حجة على خلقك إما ظاهر يطاع أو خائف مغمور ليس بمطاع لكيلا تبطل حجتك ويضل أولياؤك بعد إذ هديتهم.

“O Allah, I know well that knowledge is not lost totally nor its means disappear because You do not leave the earth without an authority over Your people; either apparent and obeyed or afraid, absent and disobeyed lest Your proofs will be vain and Your faithfuls will go astray after You have guided them.”

The same was narrated by Muhammad bin Ya'qoob al-Kulayni from Ali bin Muhammad from Sahl bin Ziyad from Muhammad bin Yahya and others from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Ali bin Ibraheem from his father from al-Hasan bin Mahboob from Hisham bin Salim from Abu Hamza ath-Thimali from Abu Iss’haq as-Subay’iy from one of Imam Ali’s trusted companions.2

3 - حدثنا محمد بن يعقوب الكليني قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن منصور بن يونس وسعدان بن مسلم، عن إسحاق بن عمار، عن أبي عبد الله قال: سمعته يقول:

إن الأرض لا تخلو إلاّ وفيها عالِم كيما إن زاد المؤمنون شيئاً ردّهم، وإن نقصوا شيئا أتمّه لهم.

(3) Muhammad bin Ya'qoob al-Kulayni narrated from Ali bin Ibraheem bin Hashim from his father from ibn Abu Omayr from Mansoor bin Younus and Sa’dan bin Muslim from Iss’haq bin Ammar that Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as) had said:

“The world will not be empty of a jurisprudent (imam). Whenever the believers add something (a heresy) to the religion, he prevents them from that and whenever they omit something of it, he completes it for them.”3

4 - حدثنا محمد بن يعقوب، عن محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن الربيع بن محمد المسلي، عن عبد الله بن سليمان العامري، عن أبي عبد الله أنه قال:

ما زالتِ الأرض إلاّ وللهِ فيها حجة يعرف الحلالَ والحرام ويدعو الناسَ إلى سبيل الله.

(4) Muhammad bin Ya'qoob narrated from Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Ali bin al-Hakam from ar-Rabee’ bin Muhammad bin al-Mussalli from Abdullah bin Sulayman al-Aamiri that Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as) had said:

“The world will still have an authority from Allah knowing the permissible and impermissible things and inviting people to the way of Allah.”4

5 - حدثنا محمد بن يعقوب، عن بعض رجاله، عن أحمد بن مهران، عن محمد بن علي، عن الحسين بن أبي العلاء، عن أبي عبد الله قال: قلت له: تبقى الأرض بغير إمام؟ قال: لا.

(5) Muhammad bin Ya'qoob narrated from some of his companions from Ahmad bin Mihran from Muhammad bin Ali that al-Husayn bin Abul Ala’ had asked Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as):

“Is the world left without an imam?”

He replied: “No, it is not.”5

6 - حدثنا محمد بن يعقوب، عن علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله أنه قال:

إنّ الله لم يدعِ الأرض بغير عالِم، ولولا ذلك لم يُعرف الحقّ من الباطل.

(6) Muhammad bin Ya'qoob narrated from Ali bin Ibraheem from Muhammad bin Eessa from Younus from ibn Miskan from Abu Baseer that Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as) had said:

“Allah does not leave the world without a jurisprudent (imam); otherwise the truth is not distinguished from the untruth.”6

7 - وعن علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن محمد بن الفضيل، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، عن أبي جعفر الباقر أنه قال:

واللهِ، ما ترك الله أرضَه منذ قبض الله آدمَ إلاّ وفيها إمامٌ يُهتدى به إلى الله، وهو حجته على عباده، ولا تبقى الأرض بغير إمام حجة لله على عباده.

(7) Ali bin Ibraheem narrated from Muhammad bin Eessa from Muhammad bin al-Fudhayl from Abu Hamza ath-Thimali that Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as) had said:

“By Allah, He has not left the world, since Adam had left to the better world, without an imam guiding people to the way of Allah and being the authority of Allah over His people. The world will never be left without an authority (from Allah) over the people.”7

8 - وبه عن أبي حمزة قال: قلت لأبي عبد الله: أتبقى الأرض بغير إمام؟ فقال:

لو بقِيتِ الأرضُ بغير إمام لَساختْ.

(8) The previous series of narrators narrated that Abu Hamza ath-Thimali had said: I asked Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as): “Is the world left without an imam?” He said:

“If the world remains without an imam, it will sink.”8

9 - وبه عن محمد بن الفضيل، عن الرضا قال:

قلت له: أتبقى الأرض بغير إمام؟

قال: لا.

قلت: فإنا نروي عن أبي عبد الله أنها لا تبقى بغير إمام إلاّ أن يسخط الله على أهل الأرض (أو قال: على العباد).

فقال: لا تبقى الأرضُ بغير إمام، ولو بقيت إذاً لساخت.

(9) The previous narrators narrated from Muhammad bin al-Fudhayl that he had said:

I asked Imam ar-Redha (as): “Is the world left without an imam?”

He said: “No, it is not.”

I said: “We narrate from Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as) that it is not left without an imam except if Allah becomes angry with the people.”

He said: “The world is not left without an imam. If it is left without an imam, it will sink.”9

10 - محمد بن يعقوب الكليني، عن علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن أبي عبد الله المؤمن، عن أبي هراسة، عن أبي جعفر الباقر أنه قال:

لو أنّ الإمامَ رُفع من الأرض ساعةً لساخت بأهلها وماجتْ كما يموج البحرُ بأهله.

(10) Muhammad bin Ya'qoob al-Kulayni narrated from Ali bin Ibraheem from Muhammad bin Eessa from Abu Abdullah al-Mo’min from Abu Hurasa that Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as) had said:

“If the imam is removed from on the earth for an hour, it will sink with its people and will surge like the sea.”10

11 - محمد بن يعقوب، عن الحسين بن محمد، عن معلي بن محمد، عن الوشاء قال:

سألت الرضا: هل تبقى الأرض بغير إمام؟

قال: لا.

قلت: إنا نروي أنها لا تبقى إلاّ أن يسخط الله على العباد.

قال: لا تبقى، إذاً لَساختْ.

(11) Muhammad bin Ya'qoob narrated from al-Husayn bin Muhammad from Mu’alla bin Muhammad that al-Washsha’ had said:

I asked Imam ar-Redha (as): “Is the world left without an imam?” He said: “No, it is not.”

I said: “We narrate traditions saying that it does not remain without an imam except if Allah becomes angry with the people.” He said: “It does not remain without an imam, otherwise it sinks.”11

 

[firedragon]

Yes, because God has appointed only a certain people to be infallible. In Islam they are believed to be 14. The 14 infallibles.

Thats only in your version of Islam. So saying "in Islam" is fallacious. I understand this is the Islam that has been taught to you as a Bahai, but this is not the Islam taught to the majority around the world.

And its not based on the Qur'an. Unless you pick a verse in the Quran that does not explicitly state anything of the sort, and impose ergo propter. According to the theology of the Qur'an, there is no one infallible other than God himself and the prophet spoke his infallible word that was written down in the Qur'an.

 

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And its not based on the Qur'an.

People who blind themselves to Ahlulbayt (A) in Quran play similar games as Bahais do with day of judgment and denial of it and interpreting all the verses about day of judgment other then clear.

Ahlulbayts chosen by God through out the times is the main theme in Quran and God's Lordship and their guidance is linked.

Prophets never came alone.

 

[firedragon]

People who blind themselves to Ahlulbayt (A) in Quran play similar games as Bahais do with day of judgment and denial of it and interpreting all the verses about day of judgment other then clear.

Ahlulbayts chosen by God through out the times is the main theme in Quran and God's Lordship and their guidance is linked.

Prophets never came alone.

Brother. Why not open a new thread for this particular topic alone. I promise you I will participate, as long as you buy me a cup of coffee the day I visit Bahrain. No escape. No excuse. What do you say?

 

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Brother. Why not open a new thread for this particular topic alone. I promise you I will participate, as long as you buy me a cup of coffee the day I visit Bahrain. No escape. No excuse. What do you say?

No problem brother. I live in Canada though. Bahrain kicked my family out before I was even born.

 

[firedragon]

No problem brother. I live in Canada though. Bahrain kicked my family out before I was even born.

Ah dang. So alright. Canada it is. Im sorry I assumed you were there. Apologies.