(3:7) The punishment of those who follow unclear

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Salam

The Quran shows those with understanding follow the best of Quran. Per hadiths, this is the clear decisive signs which 3:7 says is the origin of the book,

Imam Hussain (a) says what allows tyrants to rule us is that we follow what is unclear and dispute in religion despite there being clear proofs, out of love of dunya.

It can be said, that what is unclear in our heads, has nothing to do with Quran. Because for example, Allah (swt) does not want us to affirm he is One if it's unclear to us. He wants us to know he is One by insights and proofs. He also doesn't want us to rely on conjecture to know he is One.

Since Quran has clarified everything in itself and is decisively clear, how does unclearness exist in it? The fault is of us, if we decide to follow ambiguity from it, it's due to us preferring our own opinions with no proof about Quran, rather then what has clear proofs in Quran and Sunnah.

The Quran is clear, it's a mercy and guidance for those who believe but doesn't increase the oppressors except in loss.

We have been directed to the firmly rooted in knowledge because per another verse, those given the knowledge, the Quran is ALL clear signs to them. Nothing of it is unclear to them.

The Quran is also of many stages, it heightens itself with respect to itself, infinitely loops itself and augments to new levels. This is it's greatest sign that it is from God. How it's guidance amplifies with guidance.

The Quran is a book full of signs, clear proofs, and insights, if we choose to follow an ambiguous interpretation to a key important verse for example 4:59 as opposed to letting the Quran contextualize it, the punishment is rightly the fire forever, unless we repent. This is because 4:59 if the context is divinely appointed leaders from God is linked to submission to him and they would have the similar right as to chosen leaders of the past.

To call a verse ambiguous is a serious sign we don't want to follow it's clear interpretation in Quran and rather impose a meaning to it by our desires.

The importance of leaders appointed by God is emphasized in Quran, so therefore if 4:59 by context of 4:54 means that they are of a structure like Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) and so we are to not envy them but obey them, and we seek to an unproven by Quran interpretation and impose it on the Quran, it becomes befitting of God to lead us astray and not guide us unless we repent.

This is because it's an act of rebellion towards God's favors and chosen ones, which is never accepted by God and all so called righteous deeds in this state will have no value. Rather then acknowledging his favor, we sought to decontextualize the clear context of 4:59 with verses preceding and after.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

The Quran shows those with understanding follow the best of Quran. Per hadiths, this is the clear decisive signs which 3:7 says is the origin of the book,

Imam Hussain (a) says what allows tyrants to rule us is that we follow what is unclear and dispute in religion despite there being clear proofs, out of love of dunya.

It can be said, that what is unclear in our heads, has nothing to do with Quran. Because for example, Allah (swt) does not want us to affirm he is One if it's unclear to us. He wants us to know he is One by insights and proofs. He also doesn't want us to rely on conjecture to know he is One.

Since Quran has clarified everything in itself and is decisively clear, how does unclearness exist in it? The fault is of us, if we decide to follow ambiguity from it, it's due to us preferring our own opinions with no proof about Quran, rather then what has clear proofs in Quran and Sunnah.

The Quran is clear, it's a mercy and guidance for those who believe but doesn't increase the oppressors except in loss.

We have been directed to the firmly rooted in knowledge because per another verse, those given the knowledge, the Quran is ALL clear signs to them. Nothing of it is unclear to them.

The Quran is also of many stages, it heightens itself with respect to itself, infinitely loops itself and augments to new levels. This is it's greatest sign that it is from God. How it's guidance amplifies with guidance.

The Quran is a book full of signs, clear proofs, and insights, if we choose to follow an ambiguous interpretation to a key important verse for example 4:59 as opposed to letting the Quran contextualize it, the punishment is rightly the fire forever, unless we repent. This is because 4:59 if the context is divinely appointed leaders from God is linked to submission to him and they would have the similar right as to chosen leaders of the past.

To call a verse ambiguous is a serious sign we don't want to follow it's clear interpretation in Quran and rather impose a meaning to it by our desires.

The importance of leaders appointed by God is emphasized in Quran, so therefore if 4:59 by context of 4:54 means that they are of a structure like Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) and so we are to not envy them but obey them, and we seek to an unproven by Quran interpretation and impose it on the Quran, it becomes befitting of God to lead us astray and not guide us unless we repent.

This is because it's an act of rebellion towards God's favors and chosen ones, which is never accepted by God and all so called righteous deeds in this state will have no value. Rather then acknowledging his favor, we sought to decontextualize the clear context of 4:59 with verses preceding and after.

Yes, because God has appointed only a certain people to be infallible. In Islam they are believed to be 14. The 14 infallibles.
They are the only ones who could claim they know all interpretations of the Quran.
There is a difference between Taweel and Tafseer.
Taweel, is a word in Quran, typically used when a Hadith or a verse is not clear to ordinary people to interpret but only a Prophet or one who is given knowledge knows its Taweel (interpretation). Example of using this word, is in Surrah of Joseph, where each symbol has a hidden meaning. For example Seven cows mean, 7 years of prosperity. Twelve stars, meant the 12 brothes of Joseph.

Same word is used in 3:7. (Taweel).
Tafseer on the other hand is just a explanation of the Muhkamaat. It is not about hidden meaning of symbols.
Thus in Quran there are certain verses that have a hidden meaning. These are the Mutishabihat. Their Taweel, is only known by God and those who are Well-grounded in knowledge (3:7)

 

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Mutashibhat comes from a darkness of hearts per 3:7, it's created meanings with no proof and understanding that has nothing to do with clear insights and signs of Quran.

Taweel (deeper meaning) is built on clear signs of Quran and even inward meanings if clear light to the person, count of the origin of the book.

If it meant hidden meanings, then people would not be condemned for following them. What is condemned is following anything unclear that Quran itself has not clarified.

It's saying Quran becomes ambiguous book to those with a disease in their hearts and only can remind those who possess understanding with it's clear signs and no one knows it's full interpretation but the firmly rooted in knowledge.

The problem is most tafsirs assume they know the Quran very well. They are almost all examples of people with dark hearts interpreting Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mutashibhat comes from a darkness of hearts per 3:7, it's created meanings with no proof and understanding that has nothing to do with clear insights and signs of Quran.

Taweel (deeper meaning) is built on clear signs of Quran and even inward meanings if clear light to the person, count of the origin of the book.

If it meant hidden meanings, then people would not be condemned for following them. What is condemned is following anything unclear that Quran itself has not clarified.

It's saying Quran becomes ambiguous book to those with a disease in their hearts and only can remind those who possess understanding with it's clear signs and no one knows it's full interpretation but the firmly rooted in knowledge.

The problem is most tafsirs assume they know the Quran very well. They are almost all examples of people with dark hearts interpreting Quran.

It says those whose hearts are after Fitna, will follow its Mutishabihaat and crave to interpret them. But only God and the infallibles know its interpretation.
The Shia Imams have said we are the well-grounded in knowledge and we know its interpretation. The Quran itself makes an allusion to Imam Ali, as the witness who the knowledge of the Book is with Him. This tells us, only the infallibles know its interpretation. We can only learn from them. Thus, we must not interpret them from ourselves.

 

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It says those whose hearts are after Fitna, will follow its Mutishabihaat and crave to interpret them. But only God and the infallibles know its interpretation.
The Shia Imams have said we are the well-grounded in knowledge and we know its interpretation. The Quran itself makes an allusion to Imam Ali, as the witness who the knowledge of the Book is with Him. This tells us, only the infallibles know its interpretation. We can only learn from them. Thus, we must not interpret them from ourselves.

It's interpretation as in whole Quran. However, if we follow anything unclear from Quran, we go straight to hell. If we attribute them hadiths and don't see it in Quran, we can't say Quran says so. We go to hell if we do.

We have to follow what is clear in insight to us and leave what is unclear. If we hear hadiths but don't see it in Quran, we leave it till we do. And if we know it contradicts Quran, we abandon those hadiths.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's interpretation as in whole Quran. However, if we follow anything unclear from Quran, we go straight to hell. If we attribute them hadiths and don't see it in Quran, we can't say Quran says so. We go to hell if we do.

We have to follow what is clear in insight to us and leave what is unclear. If we hear hadiths but don't see it in Quran, we leave it till we do. And if we know it contradicts Quran, we abandon those hadiths.

It think the word Mutishabih, is related to the word "shobhe" شبهه.
Which is something that causes doubt with regards to what is intended.
So, anything that we see in Quran that we cannot be certain if its meaning, we need to see how the Infallibles interpreted them in Hadithes. But some of the verses were left for the Qaim to explain. In those cases, if one does not believe the Qaim has come, they need to leave those verses aside, and just not try interpreting them. They are meant for the Qaim to reveal their interpretations.
For Bahais who believe the Qaim is come, they just learn from their Scriptures.

 

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The thing is people who want something to be unclear can make it unclear. For example, Sunnis say Ulil-Amr is unclear, though, the context and flow it's very clear is Ahlulbayt (a) and compared to Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim in terms of Authority. If you keep in mind 4:54, 4:59 is very clear.

Bahais claim day of judgment is unclear, only because their Prophet claimed it's unclear. Otherwise, it's actually very clear what it is.

Not submitting to clear signs of Quran is condemned.

The Quran is saying there are clear signs, but those with disease in their hearts and who misguidance is in their hearts don't benefit from the reminders of Quran, they are caught in a web of ambiguities with respect to the Quran.

Other verses show their hearts are hard and hence take verses out of their place. This means they don't let Quran contextualize them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The thing is people who want something to be unclear can make it unclear. For example, Sunnis say Ulil-Amr is unclear, though, the context and flow it's very clear is Ahlulbayt (a) and compared to Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim in terms of Authority. If you keep in mind 4:54, 4:59 is very clear.

Bahais claim day of judgment is unclear, only because their Prophet claimed it's unclear. Otherwise, it's actually very clear what it is.

Not submitting to clear signs of Quran is condemned.

The Quran is saying there are clear signs, but those with disease in their hearts and who misguidance is in their hearts don't benefit from the reminders of Quran, they are caught in a web of ambiguities with respect to the Quran.

Other verses show their hearts are hard and hence take verses out of their place. This means they don't let Quran contextualize them.

OK, then you are saying tou do not need the infallibles to interpret the Quran, because it is just clear to you. Then ordinary people who are not appointed by God can just know its interpretation.

The Shia Imams have said, the Day of Judgement is the Day of Manifestation of the Qaim. There are many Hadithes they have said that. But one needs to read them carefully and without pre-judgment.

The Quran also says, Muhammad is a prophet the people of the Book can find described in their Books.
Do you see where in the Bible Muhammad can be clearly found?

 

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OK, then you are saying tou do not need the infallibles to interpret the Quran, because it is just clear to you.

Ahlulbayt (a) compliment the Quran in that they remove the dark sorcery upon it and they argue by what is clear from it, to dispel what is attributed unclear. It was them (a) who emphasized on 4:54 with respect to 4:59. It was them who emphasized on all the reward verses with respect to 42:23 to contextualize God's speech and make it clear.

They emphasize on what is clear and they manifest wisdom we may miss. They also calculate their words, to bring about treasures from Quran.

They argue by what is clear, like said to Mohammad (s) when he dealt with people of the book:

سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلَاثَةٌ رَابِعُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ خَمْسَةٌ سَادِسُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ رَجْمًا بِالْغَيْبِ ۖ وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٌ وَثَامِنُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ ۚ قُلْ رَبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِهِمْ مَا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ ۗ فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيهِمْ إِلَّا مِرَاءً ظَاهِرًا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيهِمْ مِنْهُمْ أَحَدًا | They will say, ‘[They are] three; their dog is the fourth of them,’ and say, ‘[They are] five, their dog is the sixth of them,’ taking a shot at the invisible. They will say, ‘[They are] seven, their dog is the eighth of them.’ Say, ‘My Lord knows best their number, and none knows them except a few.’ So do not dispute concerning them, except for a seeming dispute, and do not question about them any of them. | Al-Kahf : 22

God could have revealed their number, but what's the point?

Instead God emphasized on what is clearly agreed upon.

The Shia Imams have said, the Day of Judgement is the Day of Manifestation of the Qaim.

If some hadiths can be interpreted that way, they have many prayers and hadiths that interpret the day of judgment the way that is clear and that it's reference to the end and nothing to do with Bahai concept.

You claim, yet, Quran itself is very clear on day of judgment. It has described it. You have to claim it's unclear, while Ahlulbayt (A) with verses about them, never said it's unclear except to diseased hearts. They argued for example, ghadeer declaration was clear by Prophet (s). Of course, they were aware of language games Sunni play with them. The problem there is a sorcery upon Quran that hard hearts succumb to, and that is only reason why many are blind to Ahlulbayt (a) in Quran.

Ahlulbayt (a) strove to revive what is clear from Quran. They didn't resort to ambiguities for their case.

Nothing God wants everyone to follow and believe, is unclear in Quran. The day of judgment is something so clear, it's beyond doubt to all Muslims. Bahais are not different then other batini sects coming with absurd meanings in the name the Quran has inward meanings.

 

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Do you see where in the Bible Muhammad can be clearly found?

I'm aware of it, but also aware how Bible is distorted to blind people to him. Ismail for example per Quran is son of Sarah (a). The whole slave story was to make ambiguous the place of Ismail (a) and Mohammad (s).

Slavery is never allowed by God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ahlulbayt (a) compliment the Quran in that they remove the dark sorcery upon it and they argue by what is clear from it, to dispel what is attributed unclear. It was them (a) who emphasized on 4:54 with respect to 4:59. It was them who emphasized on all the reward verses with respect to 42:23 to contextualize God's speech and make it clear.

They emphasize on what is clear and they manifest wisdom we may miss. They also calculate their words, to bring about treasures from Quran.

They argue by what is clear, like said to Mohammad (s) when he dealt with people of the book:

سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلَاثَةٌ رَابِعُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ خَمْسَةٌ سَادِسُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ رَجْمًا بِالْغَيْبِ ۖ وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٌ وَثَامِنُهُمْ كَلْبُهُمْ ۚ قُلْ رَبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِهِمْ مَا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ ۗ فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيهِمْ إِلَّا مِرَاءً ظَاهِرًا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيهِمْ مِنْهُمْ أَحَدًا | They will say, ‘[They are] three; their dog is the fourth of them,’ and say, ‘[They are] five, their dog is the sixth of them,’ taking a shot at the invisible. They will say, ‘[They are] seven, their dog is the eighth of them.’ Say, ‘My Lord knows best their number, and none knows them except a few.’ So do not dispute concerning them, except for a seeming dispute, and do not question about them any of them. | Al-Kahf : 22

God could have revealed their number, but what's the point?

Instead God emphasized on what is clearly agreed upon.




If some hadiths can be interpreted that way, they have many prayers and hadiths that interpret the day of judgment the way that is clear and that it's reference to the end and nothing to do with Bahai concept.

You claim, yet, Quran itself is very clear on day of judgment. It has described it. You have to claim it's unclear, while Ahlulbayt (A) with verses about them, never said it's unclear except to diseased hearts. They argued for example, ghadeer declaration was clear by Prophet (s). Of course, they were aware of language games Sunni play with them. The problem there is a sorcery upon Quran that hard hearts succumb to, and that is only reason why many are blind to Ahlulbayt (a) in Quran.

Ahlulbayt (a) strove to revive what is clear from Quran. They didn't resort to ambiguities for their case.

Nothing God wants everyone to follow and believe, is unclear in Quran. The day of judgment is something so clear, it's beyond doubt to all Muslims. Bahais are not different then other batini sects coming with absurd meanings in the name the Quran has inward meanings.

Well, here are some Hadithes, showing that Shia Imams used the Manifestation of Qaim, and Day of Judgement interchangeably.

45 - أخبرنا أحمد بن إدريس قال: حدثنا أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن يونس، عن رجل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله تبارك وتعالى: فأنظرني إلى يوم يبعثون قال فإنك من المنظرين إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم، قال: - * * * يوم الوقت المعلوم هو يوم ظهور المهدي عليه السلام [1814 - (الامام الرضا عليه السلام) " لا دين لمن لا ورع له، ولا إيمان لمن لا تقية له إن أكرمكم عند الله أعملكم بالتقية، فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله إلى متى ؟ قال: إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم، وهو يوم خروج قائمنا أهل البيت فمن ترك التقية قبل خروج قائمنا فليس منا. فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله ومن القائم منكم أهل البيت ؟ قال الرابع من ولدي، ابن سيدة الاماء، يطهر الله به الارض من كل جور، ويقدسها من كل ظلم.


In this Hadith, the Quranic Term (وقت المعلوم)، the appointed Time, is the Rise of Qaim. Which according to the Quran and other Hadithes, is the Day of Judgement, which is blown in Trumpet:


ال : يوم الوقت المعلوم يوم ينفخ في الصور نفخة واحدة فيموت إبليس ما بين النفخة الاولى والثانية. الخبر.
قال : ويوم الوقت المعلوم يوم ينفخ في الصور نفخة واحدة ، فيموت إبليس ما بين النفخة الاولى والثانية. وأما « نون » فكان نهرا في الجنة أشد بياضا من الثلج وأحلى من العسل ، قال الله عزوجل له : كن مدادا ، فكان مدادا ، ثم أخذ شجرة فغرسها بيده ـ ثم قال : واليد : القوة ، وليس بحيث تذهب إليه المشبهة ـ ثم قال لها : كوني قلما ، ثم قال له : اكتب ، فقال : يا رب وما أكتب؟ قال : ماهو كائن إلى يوم القيامة ، ففعل ذلك ، ثم ختم عليه وقال : لا تنطقن إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم. [١]


Also, on the Day of Judgement humanity meets with God, but Imam Baghir said, when the Quran says, humanity meets with God, it is meeting the Mahdi in Iraq:

(هل ينظرون إلا أن يأتيهم الله في ظلل من الغمام والملائكة وقضي الامر وإلى الله ترجع الامور)] (البقرة - 210). أن المهدي عليه السلام يأتي العراق في سبع قباب من نور [1466 - (الامام الباقر عليه السلام)


So, according to Imams, the Day of Judgement and the Day of Rise of Qaim are the same event. They are just interchangeable terms.
This is why Imam Abi Abdallah, clearly said that Day of Resurrection is the Day of Rise of the Qaim:


عن جابر عن أبي عبد الله في قول الله تعالى وَاللَّيْلِ إِذا يَغْشى
قال دولة إبليس إلى يوم القيامة وهو يوم قيام القائم

وَالنَّهارِ إِذا تَجَلَّى وهو القائم إذا قام

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm aware of it, but also aware how Bible is distorted to blind people to him. Ismail for example per Quran is son of Sarah (a). The whole slave story was to make ambiguous the place of Ismail (a) and Mohammad (s).

Slavery is never allowed by God.

But specifically speaking about Muhammad in the Bible, the Quran does not say, that Muhammad was in the Bible clearly, and later they distorted the Bible. It says, they can find Him described in the Book.

 

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But specifically speaking about Muhammad in the Bible, the Quran does not say, that Muhammad was in the Bible clearly, and later they distorted the Bible. It says, they can find Him described in the Book.

You can find him there, but you can also see the Bible is distorted per Quran including slavery being allowed.

 

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Well, here are some Hadithes, showing that Shia Imams used the Manifestation of Qaim, and Day of Judgement interchangeably.

45 - أخبرنا أحمد بن إدريس قال: حدثنا أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن يونس، عن رجل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله تبارك وتعالى: فأنظرني إلى يوم يبعثون قال فإنك من المنظرين إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم، قال: - * * * يوم الوقت المعلوم هو يوم ظهور المهدي عليه السلام [1814 - (الامام الرضا عليه السلام) " لا دين لمن لا ورع له، ولا إيمان لمن لا تقية له إن أكرمكم عند الله أعملكم بالتقية، فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله إلى متى ؟ قال: إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم، وهو يوم خروج قائمنا أهل البيت فمن ترك التقية قبل خروج قائمنا فليس منا. فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله ومن القائم منكم أهل البيت ؟ قال الرابع من ولدي، ابن سيدة الاماء، يطهر الله به الارض من كل جور، ويقدسها من كل ظلم.


In this Hadith, the Quranic Term (وقت المعلوم)، the appointed Time, is the Rise of Qaim. Which according to the Quran and other Hadithes, is the Day of Judgement, which is blown in Trumpet:


ال : يوم الوقت المعلوم يوم ينفخ في الصور نفخة واحدة فيموت إبليس ما بين النفخة الاولى والثانية. الخبر.
قال : ويوم الوقت المعلوم يوم ينفخ في الصور نفخة واحدة ، فيموت إبليس ما بين النفخة الاولى والثانية. وأما « نون » فكان نهرا في الجنة أشد بياضا من الثلج وأحلى من العسل ، قال الله عزوجل له : كن مدادا ، فكان مدادا ، ثم أخذ شجرة فغرسها بيده ـ ثم قال : واليد : القوة ، وليس بحيث تذهب إليه المشبهة ـ ثم قال لها : كوني قلما ، ثم قال له : اكتب ، فقال : يا رب وما أكتب؟ قال : ماهو كائن إلى يوم القيامة ، ففعل ذلك ، ثم ختم عليه وقال : لا تنطقن إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم. [١]


Also, on the Day of Judgement humanity meets with God, but Imam Baghir said, when the Quran says, humanity meets with God, it is meeting the Mahdi in Iraq:

(هل ينظرون إلا أن يأتيهم الله في ظلل من الغمام والملائكة وقضي الامر وإلى الله ترجع الامور)] (البقرة - 210). أن المهدي عليه السلام يأتي العراق في سبع قباب من نور [1466 - (الامام الباقر عليه السلام)


So, according to Imams, the Day of Judgement and the Day of Rise of Qaim are the same event. They are just interchangeable terms.
This is why Imam Abi Abdallah, clearly said that Day of Resurrection is the Day of Rise of the Qaim:


عن جابر عن أبي عبد الله في قول الله تعالى وَاللَّيْلِ إِذا يَغْشى
قال دولة إبليس إلى يوم القيامة وهو يوم قيام القائم

وَالنَّهارِ إِذا تَجَلَّى وهو القائم إذا قام

The first hadith says he (the Mahdi) is the fourth descendant of the Imam (a) being quoted.

 

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The first hadith says he (the Mahdi) is the fourth descendant of the Imam (a) being quoted.

Yes, the fourth from Imam Riza.
But we also have this Hadith:

Abu Basir narrates from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following:

"Allah sent revelation to ‘Imran saying, "I will grant you a perfect and holy son who would cure the blind and the lepers and bring the dead back to life by Allah, the permission of Allah and I make him a messenger to the israelites." ‘Imran then said it to his wife, Hanna, mother of Mary all about it When she conceive with the baby Mary and she thought to herself that the baby will be a boy. When she give birth to Mary she said, "Lord, I have given birth to a girl and boys are not like girls. A girl can not be a messenger. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, has said, "Allah knows to who have you given birth. When Allah, the Most High, granted Jesus to Mary he was the boy promised to ‘Imran. He promised Jesus to ‘Imran. When we would say something about a man from us and that thing would be found in his sons or grand sons then you must not deny it."

The Quranic evidence for this Hadith is in verse 3:36,
“But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female…..”

3:35-36

 

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Yeah, we say in Ziyarats to Imams (a) son of Mohammad (s).

However, this is 4th descendant. It's clear.

But aside from that, Imam Hassan Al-askari (a) per Sunnis had no kids, and per Shiites had Imam Mahdi (a), but there is no descendants from him aside from Imam Mahdi (a).

So how you deal with that? It can't be descendants of Imam Hassan Alaskari (a) when he only had Imam Mahdi (a) or no one at all.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yeah, we say in Ziyarats to Imams (a) son of Mohammad (s).

However, this is 4th descendant. It's clear.

But aside from that, Imam Hassan Al-askari (a) per Sunnis had no kids, and per Shiites had Imam Mahdi (a), but there is no descendants from him aside from Imam Mahdi (a).

So how you deal with that? It can't be descendants of Imam Hassan Alaskari (a) when he only had Imam Mahdi (a) or no one at all.

In the Book Rijal Alkeshi, it is recorded that Imam Reza said, “…if God would lengthen the lifespan of anyone among mankind, due to the needs of the people, God would have lengthen the life of Muhammad, the Messenger of God.

إختيار معرفة الرجال المعروف بـ رجال الكشي - الشيخ الطوسي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت


Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il has narrated from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from Ibrahim ibn ‘Umar al-Yamani from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"If we would say something about a man and it would not be found in him but it would be found in his sons or his grandsons you must not reject it. It is because Allah does what he wants."


If the 11th Imam actually had a son, who is the Mahdi, why would Abuabdallah say this?

But what is sure, is, the Qaim was supposed to come from the lineage of Fatima and Hussain:
من قول النبي عليه السلام: المهدي من عترتي من ولد فاطمة. ومن كتاب الفتن مرفوعا إلى

ومنه عن علي عليه السلام: سمى النبي صلى الله عليه وآله الحسين سيدا وسيخرج الله من صلبه رجلا اسمه اسم نبيكم يملأ الأرض عدلا كما ملئت جورا. وعن عبد الله ابن عمر يخرج رجل من ولد الحسين من قبل المشرق

So, it was said the 9th one from Hussein. If we consider what Abu Abdallah said, if God changed this, and instead the Qaim appeared in a future generation, but still from Fatima and Hussein, then we must not deny.

There are other Hadithes that the Qaim is born during end Time, but people expect Him to be an old man, whereas He would be a young man when He rises.

For example Imam Baghir said
هو مولود أخرالزمان

بحار الأنوار الجزء 51 الصفحة (137)
بهذا الاسناد, عن محمد بن مسعود, عن نصر بن الصباح, عن جعفر ابن سهل, عن أبي عبدالله أخي عبد الله الكابلي, عن القابوسي, عن نضر بن السندي, عن الخليل بن عمرو, عن علي بن الحسين الفزاري, عن إبراهيم بن عطية, عن ام هانئ الثقفية قال : غدوت على سيدي محمد بن علي الباقر عليه السلام فقلت له : ياسيدي آية في كتاب الله عزوجل عرضت بقلبي أقلقتني وأسهرتني قال : فاسئلي يا ام هانئ ؟ قالت قلت : قول الله عزوجل (( فَلَا أُقسِمُ بِالخُنَّسِ * الجَوَارِ الكُنَّسِ )) قال : نعم المسألة سألتني يا ام هانئ هذا مولود في آخر الزمان هو المهدي من هذه العترة تكون له حيرة وغيبة يضل فيها أقوام ويهتدي فيها أقوام فيا طوبى لك إن أدركته .
ويا طوبى من أدركه




And in regards to the disappearance of the Qaim, the Hadithes says, it happens only after He rises:



Abu Basir said to Abu Abdullah Imam Sadiq (a.s.) that Abu Ja’far, Baqir (a.s.) often said: “The Qaim of Muhammad’s progeny will disappear twice; one will be longer than the other.”

He said: “Yes, but that will not be until the army of the tribe of so and so disagrees, life becomes so difficult, the Sufyani rises, distresses and calamities increase and death and killing spread among people until they resort to the sanctum of Allah and the sanctum of the Prophet.


Therefore, the disappearance of Qaim is after His rise, because as the Hadith says, His disappearance is after rise of Sufyani, and Qaim and Sufyani rise in the same year.


And according to Hadithes, His disappearance is like Joseph when He was imprisoned:


97- Ghaibat Nomani: It is narrated from Ali bin Ahmad from Ubaidullah bin

Musa from Abdullah bin Jabla from Ibne Bataini from his father from Abu Basir that

Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said:

“The master of this matter has aspects like those that four of the prophets have had; an aspect of Musa, one of Jesus Christ, one of Joseph and one of Muhammad (peace be upon them).”

I asked: “Which aspect of Musa (a.s.)?” He said: “Afraid and lying in wait.”
I said: “Which one of Jesus Christ (a.s.)?”
He said: “It will be said about him (Imam Mahdi) as that has been said about Jesus Christ (a.s.).” I said:

“Which of Joseph?” He said: “Prison and disappearance.”

So, according to this Hadith, the disappearance of the Qaim is imprisonment.

 

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The hadiths about Imam Mahdi being from Hassan Alaskari are many in Shiite sources and even Sunni Sufi sources. If the hadiths you quote support what you say which is a big if why abandon many hadiths for those. Plus if Bahaallah doesn’t accept the Mahdi it contradicts albayan from the Bab and what it said about the four Safirs of Imam Mahdi.

 

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I also don't see Iblis dead personally. You guys believe he is dead?

 

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Salam

From Quran, we can deduce there is a witness who is the guide and leader of the time, in all times. This is a clear meaning. Therefore, we can deduce after Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a), there had to be an Imam/Guide who replaces him.

Among the proofs is verse 13:7 which says there is a guide for every people who can perform miracles for them and show them such signs.


H 482, Ch. 10, h 1 A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd and Fudala ibn Ayyub from Musa ibn Bakr from al-Fudayl who has said that he asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah: "For every people there is a guide." (13:7) The Imam (a.s.) said that every Imam is the guide in his own time."

H 483, Ch. 10, h 2 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Muhammad ibn abu ‘Umayr from ibn ’Udhayna from Buray al-‘Ijli from Ima abu Ja'far (a.s.) who has said the following about the words of Allah. "(Muhammad), you are only a Warner. For every nation there is a guide. (13:7)" The Imam (a. s.) said that at all times there is a guide from us who guides people to the teachings of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) Of the guides who possess Divine authority after the holy Prophet (s.a.) is Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) and his successors one after the other.

H 484, Ch. 10, h 3 Al-Husaym ibn Muhammad al-Ash‘ari has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Jumhur from Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il from Sa‘dan from abu Basir who has said that he asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah. "(Muhammad), you are only a Warner. For every nation there is a guide." (13:7) The Imam (a. s.) said, "The Holy Prophet is the Warner and Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) is the guide. O abu Muhammad, is there a guide today?" I said, "Yes, may Allah take my soul in service for your cause, there has always been a guide from you one after the other until this (noble task) is being carried on by your own self." The Imam (a.s.) said, "O abu Muhammad, may Allah grand you blessings. Had it been like the coming of guidance to man and then he would die with his death the guidance would also die and the whole book would die, but it lives and it continues with new generations as it has done so with the people in the past."

H 485, Ch. 10, h 4 Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from Safwan from Mansur from ‘Abd al-Rahim al-Qusayr who has said that asked Imam abu Ja'far (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah, ". . . For every nation there is a guide. (13:7)" The Imam (a.s.) said, "The Holy Prophet (s.a.) is the Warner and Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) is the guide. Let it be known, I swear by Allah, that guidance never departed us, it is with us and will always be with us until the Day of Judgment."


Sunni sources confirm this as well:


وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ
“And those who disbelieved say, “Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?” You are only a Warner, and for every people is a Guide.” (13:7)

Narrated from Ibn Abbas:
“When this verse (13:7) was revealed, the Prophet (saww) placed his hand upon his chest and said, “I am the warner” and then moved his hand to the shoulder of Ali (as) and said, “And you are the guide O’Ali. Through you the guided ones will be guided after Me“
[Source: Tafseer al-Tha’labee, Vol. 5, Pg. 272 – Online Link]

Authors note: The words ‘After Me’ are important here as they seem to indicate that Ali (as) is the guide from whom guidance is obtained after the Holy Prophet (saww). This is another indication towards Ali (as) being the successor of the Prophet (saww)

Also in the scan, it says, the Nabi (s) said "the warner is me, and the guide is a man from bani-hashim"