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2022 Brazil's political woes

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
@Jayhawker Soule and @Koldo may want to take a look at this thread.

So. Brazil. The place where I have lived for pretty much all of my life. One of apparently many that are at odds with themselves and express that conflict through their political system.

Currently, that dilemma is most evident in the expectations for the presidential election coming in 87 days. To put it bluntly, it is a choice between a grievous disaster and a far worse disaster. And we are very divided on which is which. It is quite a mess.

On the one side, we have Jair Messias Bolsonaro. I can't very well put into words just how fiercely I repudiate him in every way conceivable. He is an terrible, terrible human being and a much worse politician. I fully expect that he will be put in jail at some point, hopefully not too long after October 2nd 2022. The list of his crimes is long and perplexing; many of the worst are transparent expressions of a deeply immature and insecure, bravado-dependent, self-entitled personality that has not been challenged and educated at anywhere near the proper level. By himself he pushed us at least two thirds of the way towards full blown fascism. In a very embarrassing way, I hasten to add.

Then we have Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, or simply "Lula". A person as notable for his common ground with Bolsonaro as for his contrasts. Having served two consecutive mandates as President, Lula is by no means a very extreme politician, but Bolsonaro's supporters make the claim anyway.

Both Lula and Bolsonaro are strongly disliked and also strongly supported. As usual for Brazilian politicians that are well-known, they have severe rejection rates. But both are also seen by their respective support bases as very difficult to do without, and the only realistic hope against a disaster scenario.

I won't talk much about Bolsonaro's supporters in this post. Quite frankly, there isn't a lot worth talking about there. They are deeply irrational, very authoritarian, very scared of facing reality. Worse of all, they have been increasingly reliant on levels of self-inflicted delusion in order to sustain their viability. At this point they are supporting misoginy, open corruption, threats of military force against the elections and the judiciary, invasion of native people's lands, homophoby and even worse. You get the drill. They are a sorry if sometimes too proud lot, rightfully fearful for their future and clinging with growing despair to lies and wild fantasies that they hope will be enough to ward their fears away.

Lula is much more run of the mill a person, much as there are also many people projecting unreasonably high hopes into him. He is a slightly left leaning speaker with, frankly, not a whole lot of content, and far higher levels of nationalism and populism than I could ever enjoy. He was extremely popular back in the day, mainly because there was some advance in wealth distribution during his mandates. But I for one do not think very highly of him; he is a shallow speaker with not much commitment to serious proposals, and there is way too much evidence (but not a whole lot of proof) that he has been lenient with corruption. He also suffers because his chosen successor, Dilma, did not have nearly as much success in managing the economy and ended up being removed by impeachment during a climate of serious despisal and mistrust.

To this day many people call Dilma's impeachment a "coup". I am not one of those people. Brazil does not have a parliamentary system, and Dilma's removal had become a political necessity for actual governance activity to be possiible. We used the tools that are available.

The truth is that Brazilians are just too immature to much of a government make. We always deal with corruption and traffic of influence, not all of it self-conscious. But it has become so much worse under Bolsonaro that I fear that significant healing may not happen during my lifetime. Bolsonaro is so seriously unbalanced that I honestly wonder if he has convinced himself that he is divinely assured of reelection.

As for Lula, he is a fairly plain vanilla populist with slightly left wing tendencies. I will vote for him this time, and as it turns out it will be the first time. I have no great admiration for his policies, nor do I find the party that he founded and that supports him particularly admirable either. Among other reasons, because they revere Lula way too much for confort.

I would have voted for him back in 2018, particularly if I believed that to be the best shot at keeping Bolsonaro away from a position of power. But there was no chance of a resolution in the first round of votes and it turned out that Lula himself was not running either; by that point in time he was actually in prison due to what was eventually revealed to be very ill conducted trials for corruption charges. The judge that dealt with him directly, Sérgio Moro, actually became Law Minister for Bolsonaro and later attempted to present himself as a natural candidate for this ellection.

Unfortunately, there isn't all that much to salvage at this point. I will resolutely vote for Lula and hope that the first round settles the question. But the goal will be to diminish the bleeding. I have no doubt that the harm will be felt for many years to come, and I would not have chosen Lula if I felt that I have any choice.
 
Last edited:

Yerda

Veteran Member
I would have voted for him back in 2018, particularly if I believed that to be the best shot at keeping Bolsonaro away from a position of power. But there was no chance of a resolution in the first round of votes and it turned out that Lula himself was not running either; by that point in time he was actually in prison due to what was eventually revealed to be very ill conducted trials for corruption charges. The judge that dealt with him directly, Sérgio Moro, actually became Law Minister for Bolsonaro and later attempted to present himself as a natural candidate for this ellection.
When Lula was imprisoned it created a lot of chatter on the kind of news sources I read at the time. The (mostly left leaning) commentators and reporters suggested it was a political move to stop him running against Bolsonaro. I note that he is still very popular but that's hardly evidence of being clean.

What kind of candidate or platform would you prefer to be voting for?

Also, I previously watched an Al Jazeera documentary on the carwash scandal (and a TV drama). Is there anything you would recommend on the subject?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
@Jayhawker Soule and @Koldo may want to take a look at this thread.

So. Brazil. The place where I have lived for pretty much all of my life. One of apparently many that are at odds with themselves and express that conflict through their political system.

Currently, that dilemma is most evident in the expectations for the presidential election coming in 87 days. To put it bluntly, it is a choice between a grievous disaster and a far worse disaster. And we are very divided on which is which. It is quite a mess.

On the one side, we have Jair Messias Bolsonaro. I can't very well put into words just how fiercely I repudiate him in every way conceivable. He is an terrible, terrible human being and a much worse politician. I fully expect that he will be put in jail at some point, hopefully not too long after October 2nd 2022. The list of his crimes is long and perplexing; many of the worst are transparent expressions of a deeply immature and insecure, bravado-dependent, self-entitled personality that has not been challenged and educated at anywhere near the proper level. By himself he pushed us at least two thirds of the way towards full blown fascism. In a very embarrassing way, I hasten to add.

Then we have Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, or simply "Lula". A person as notable for his common ground with Bolsonaro as for his contrasts. Having served two consecutive mandates as President, Lula is by no means a very extreme politician, but Bolsonaro's supporters make the claim anyway.

Both Lula and Bolsonaro are strongly disliked and also strongly supported. As usual for Brazilian politicians that are well-known, they have severe rejection rates. But both are also seen by their respective support bases as very difficult to do without, and the only realistic hope against a disaster scenario.

I won't talk much about Bolsonaro's supporters in this post. Quite frankly, there isn't a lot worth talking about there. They are deeply irrational, very authoritarian, very scared of facing reality. Worse of all, they have been increasingly reliant on levels of self-inflicted delusion in order to sustain their viability. At this point they are supporting misoginy, open corruption, threats of military force against the elections and the judiciary, invasion of native people's lands, homophoby and even worse. You get the drill. They are a sorry if sometimes too proud lot, rightfully fearful for their future and clinging with growing despair to lies and wild fantasies that they hope will be enough to ward their fears away.

Lula is much more run of the mill a person, much as there are also many people projecting unreasonably high hopes into him. He is a slightly left leaning speaker with, frankly, not a whole lot of content, and far higher levels of nationalism and populism than I could ever enjoy. He was extremely popular back in the day, mainly because there was some advance in wealth distribution during his mandates. But I for one do not think very highly of him; he is a shallow speaker with not much commitment to serious proposals, and there is way too much evidence (but not a whole lot of proof) that he has been lenient with corruption. He also suffers because his chosen successor, Dilma, did not have nearly as much success in managing the economy and ended up being removed by impeachment during a climate of serious despisal and mistrust.

To this day many people call Dilma's impeachment a "coup". I am not one of those people. Brazil does not have a parliamentary system, and Dilma's removal had become a political necessity for actual governance activity to be possiible. We used the tools that are available.

The truth is that Brazilians are just too immature to much of a government make. We always deal with corruption and traffic of influence, not all of it self-conscious. But it has become so much worse under Bolsonaro that I fear that significant healing may not happen during my lifetime. Bolsonaro is so seriously unbalanced that I honestly wonder if he has convinced himself that he is divinely assured of reelection.

As for Lula, he is a fairly plain vanilla populist with slightly left wing tendencies. I will vote for him this time, and as it turns out it will be the first time. I have no great admiration for his policies, nor do I find the party that he founded and that supports him particularly admirable either. Among other reasons, because they revere Lula way too much for confort.

I would have voted for him back in 2018, particularly if I believed that to be the best shot at keeping Bolsonaro away from a position of power. But there was no chance of a resolution in the first round of votes and it turned out that Lula himself was not running either; by that point in time he was actually in prison due to what was eventually revealed to be very ill conducted trials for corruption charges. The judge that dealt with him directly, Sérgio Moro, actually became Law Minister for Bolsonaro and later attempted to present himself as a natural candidate for this ellection.

Unfortunately, there isn't all that much to salvage at this point. I will resolutely vote for Lula and hope that the first round settles the question. But the goal will be to diminish the bleeding. I have no doubt that the harm will be felt for many years to come, and I would not have chosen Lula if I felt that I have any choice.

We are living a situation created by Lula himself...
Odd times.

If Lula's party weren't involved in so much corruption it would still be in power at this day and age. That's what allowed Bolsonaro to take over the presidency with an anti-Lula plataform.

And now since Lula is running again we are stuck between him and Bolsonaro since they have enough fanatics in their groups to swing the election their way.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
When Lula was imprisoned it created a lot of chatter on the kind of news sources I read at the time. The (mostly left leaning) commentators and reporters suggested it was a political move to stop him running against Bolsonaro. I note that he is still very popular but that's hardly evidence of being clean.

I don't think he is clean. I don't trust him. He makes all the wrong claims far too often for my confort.

At the time I guess I assumed there was enough evidence and proper legal process. It turned out not to be the case.

All the same, I still would and will vote for him each and every time if that is what it takes to keep Bolsonaro and his ilk away from positions of power.

What kind of candidate or platform would you prefer to be voting for?

I would rather vote for Ciro Gomes, who takes questions more seriously. Despite recent disappointments.

For the right leaning contingent, I loved Simone Tebet's participation in the parlamentary inquiries about Bolsonaro's mismanagement and crimes related to the Covid epidemic and the vaccines. She would probably make a far better President than either Lula or Bolsonaro.

Also, I previously watched an Al Jazeera documentary on the carwash scandal (and a TV drama). Is there anything you would recommend on the subject?

The 2017 movie by Marcelo Antunez, starring Flávia Alessandra and Antonio Calloni. It gives a fairly good idea of how difficult it is to deal with corruption here in Brazil.

Just don't assume for a second that Sérgio Moro or Bolsonaro would be any better than Lula in that regard. Or in any other...
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I read Trump and Biden into your OP.

It is similar with some major distinctions:
First of all, Lula is more charismatic, so he is more like Obama than Biden.
Second, both Lula and Bolsonaro are involved in major corruption scandals.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
We are living a situation created by Lula himself...
Odd times.

I would love to keep avoiding voting for Lula. I don't think he is any good for Brazil, and particularly not for our corruption levels.

But I don't think he is personally all that notable when it comes to corruption. And I definitely don't think he is any worse than Bolsonaro and his supporters; quite on the contrary really. Even if we restrain ourselves to considering corruption alone, which we should not.


If Lula's party weren't involved in so much corruption it would still be in power at this day and age. That's what allowed Bolsonaro to take over the presidency with an anti-Lula plataform.

I guess I just don't agree. The Worker's Party isn't all that notable, and certainly not all that well liked.

Nor do I see any reason to excuse Bolsonaro's supporters just because Lula, the Worker's Party or their corruption troubles exist, either. There is really no excuse whatsoever to support Bolsonaro in any way, shape or form. There never was.

And now since Lula is running again we are stuck between him and Bolsonaro since they have enough fanatics in their groups to swing the election their way.

To our credit, many Brazilians deeply wish otherwise. To our lasting shame, we can't really agree on what would be a better direction ahead.

Frankly, at this stage weaking and eventually fully destroying "Bolsonarismo" - which is ultimately just fascism on the making - is by far the main priority. Nothing else matters nearly as much.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I would love to keep avoiding voting for Lula. I don't think he is any good for Brazil, and particularly not for our corruption levels.

But I don't think he is personally all that notable when it comes to corruption. And I definitely don't think he is any worse than Bolsonaro and his supporters; quite on the contrary really. Even if we restrain ourselves to considering corruption alone, which we should not.

I guess I just don't agree. The Worker's Party isn't all that notable, and certainly not all that well liked.

Not anymore. But it used to be. It used to have a solid majority across many years. Except down the South. The corruption scandals ruined it though.

Nor do I see any reason to excuse Bolsonaro's supporters just because Lula, the Worker's Party or their corruption troubles exist, either. There is really no excuse whatsoever to support Bolsonaro in any way, shape or form. There never was.

I am going to completely disagree with you here. We weren't aware of how badly Bolsonaro would perform but we knew for a fact that voting for the Worker's Party back in 2018 would be the same as saying we don't care about corruption.

To our credit, many Brazilians deeply wish otherwise. To our lasting shame, we can't really agree on what would be a better direction ahead.

Frankly, at this stage weaking and eventually fully destroying "Bolsonarismo" - which is ultimately just fascism on the making - is by far the main priority. Nothing else matters nearly as much.

It is so far from achieving facism though...
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Not anymore. But it used to be. It used to have a solid majority across many years. Expect down the South. The corruption scandals ruined it though.

Yet we do not seem to have much in the way of better options, now do we?

Its main rivals aren't exactly known to be less involved in corruption, at the very least.

I am going to completely disagree with you here. We weren't aware of how badly Bolsonaro would perform but we knew for a fact that voting for the Worker's Party back in 2018 would be the same as saying we don't care about corruption.

We will have to agree to disagree. Surprised as I truly am at how deeply Bolsonaro reeks, voting for Bolsonaro (or rather, failing to vote against him) never made any sense whatsoever. He was an unprepared, unworthy thug even under the least informed, most favorable lights.

That was never in doubt far as I am concerned. And never will be.

It is so far from achieving facism though...

I have to wonder what you mean by that. He already achieved that, and to a far greater degree than I hoped to ever witness during my life.

It is really depressing.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yes, and thank you.

Sadly, my knowledge of Lula runs no deeper that the Wikipedia: Lula entry, and I would appreciate reading your views on the article. As for talk about Bolsonaro wannabes in the U.S. and elsewhere, that is probably best left to another thread.
You're welcome.

The Wikipedia article seems quite fair to me. If it sounds puzzling at times... I guess that is proper.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Yet we do not seem to have much in the way of better options, now do we?

Its main rivals aren't exactly known to be less involved in corruption, at the very least.

Nope, we don't. But it is sensible to avoid voting in politicians deeply involved in corruption.

We will have to agree to disagree. Surprised as I truly am at how deeply Bolsonaro reeks, voting for Bolsonaro (or rather, failing to vote against him) never made any sense whatsoever. He was an unprepared, unworthy thug even under the least informed, most favorable lights.

That was never in doubt far as I am concerned. And never will be.

Unprepared and unworthy is still better than deeply corrupt in my book though. But since he is also deeply corrupt now it doesn't make sense to vote in him this year.

I have to wonder what you mean by that. He achieved that far more than I hoped to ever witness during my life.

Can you elaborate?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Nope, we don't. But it is sensible to avoid voting in politicians deeply involved in corruption.



Unprepared and unworthy is still better than deeply corrupt in my book though. But since he is also deeply corrupt now it doesn't make sense to vote in him this year.
I'm flabbergasted that you are surprised.

Can you elaborate?
He normalized homophoby, science denial, misoginy, thuggish behavior in the police and the military, disrespect for the judiciary, deep corruption in the legislative, and an impressive variety of criminal gangs in government - including a truly bizarre number of active military in positions entirely outside their fields of competence.

Oh, and there is the abusive behavior of Christians and the attempts at scaring, co-opting and supressing the media as well.

We are already fighting fascism, make no mistake.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I'm flabbergasted that you are surprised.


He normalized homophoby, science denial, misoginy, thuggish behavior in the police and the military, disrespect for the judiciary, deep corruption in the legislative, and an impressive variety of criminal gangs in government - including a truly bizarre number of active military in positions entirely outside their fields of competence.

Oh, and there is the abusive behavior of Christians and the attempts at scaring, co-opting and supressing the media as well.

We are already fighting fascism, make no mistake.

There is hardly anything you pointed that I would refer as a trait of facism specifically. We seem to have completely different conceptions of what facism entails.
 
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