“Christianized” mysticism

[Shiranui117]

First of all, a thank you to the staff.

Second of all, I'm just gonna post this here from the other thread, and get a de facto thread merger going, and to put things back on topic...

Hey all,

Over the past couple months, I've witnessed some of our brothers and sisters in Christ exhibit strong amounts of resistance to the idea of Christian monasticism, and many forms of spirituality that have their origin in monasticism (Rosary, Jesus Prayer, hesychasm, prayer of the heart, renunciation of the world, solitude, etc.)

I wanted to open up a thread where those in Christ who oppose monasticism and Christian mysticism may put forth their objections, and where those in Christ who don't know much about monasticism and Christian mysticism can ask any questions they may have, and I and others who know something about monasticism and the more mystical side of Christian spirituality can answer these objections and questions.

So, fire at will!

 

[Shiranui117]

I believe the scriptures are alive, meaning that God speaks by the power of the Holy Spirit to the one reading and seeking to hear from God. I do not believe God is giving any new revelation because His revelation through the scriptures is sufficient and complete. Nor does God give new revelation which contradicts His already revealed word, which so many of the claimed new revelations do.

But, just as we speak to God in prayer, God can speak back. Surely you would agree with this?

When the scriptures speak about meditating it means to think about or dwell on the words and wisdom they reveal from God. This is not the same as eastern or mystical meditation which is to empty or quiet one's mind from the thinking process.

This is largely true; Christian meditation is not the same as Buddhist or Hindu meditation. But there is also a spiritual practice in Orthodox Christianity known as hesychasm, which comes from the Greek word meaning "silence/stillness." But even this is not the same kind of "stillness" as practiced in the Dharmic religions. You can read more about Hesychasm here.

The point of meditating on the scriptures is to align one's thinking with God's perspective and revealed truths, which transforms one's sinful thoughts into godly thoughts.

This is also true; the point of hesychasm and other monastic spiritual practice is to make progress on the way of theosis, which is the process of becoming more and more like Christ; as several Saints have said, "God became man, so that man may become god." We are to become by grace what God is by nature; that is, holy, without blemish, humble, peaceful, sharing in God's eternal Life, love and presence, and being filled with the Divine Light.

 

[InChrist]

God is in and of Himself a mystery; if one really ponders the saving work of Christ, and how God works in the world, one quickly finds himself unable to express with words God's majesty, power, light, love and presence.

There is plenty of evidence and support for the idea of "meditating" in the Bible:

BibleGateway - Quick search: meditate

Yes, the scriptures speak of meditating or thinking about God's precepts, statues, majesty, power, love, etc as you have pointed out. I believe this is much different than the "meditation" being taught through contemplative or mystical prayer and meditation methods which encourage the use of techniques no different than those of occultism to silence the mind and reach an altered state.

One of the most pertinent Scriptural verses on this subject comes from Psalm 46:10--"Be still, and know that I am God".

In context, this verse is reminding the people that God is their refuge in times of trouble and they need not fear, but are to be still ( literal meaning-cease, abate) and trust God who has shown Himself strong on their behalf before. This verse is really not saying anything about practicing or having mystical meditations or experiences.

Mysticism is not something unique to the Dharmic religions--as long as we acknowledge that God is incomprehensible, and there are a great many mysterious things in our Faith.

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: mystery

In contrast to pagan "mystery cults," this is what the word "mystery" means in the Christian context.

From Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's book The Orthodox Way:
"So, in the Christian context, we do not mean by a 'mystery' merely that which is baffling or mysterious, an enigma or insoluble problem. A mystery is, on the contrary, something that is revealed for our understanding, but which we never understand exhaustively because it leads into the depth of the darkness of God. The eyes are closed--but they are also opened."

[/quote]


I agree that in the Christian context the mystery or mysteries have been revealed and they are revealed in the pages of the scriptures as shown by the BibleGateway link you included. I do not understand what is meant by this part of the quote above..."it leads into the depth of the darkness of God" and it contradicts the scriptures that God is Light and in Him there is no darkness.

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

 

[Shiranui117]

Yes, the scriptures speak of meditating or thinking about God's precepts, statues, majesty, power, love, etc as you have pointed out. I believe this is much different than the "meditation" being taught through contemplative or mystical prayer and meditation methods which encourage the use of techniques no different than those of occultism to silence the mind and reach an altered state.

Except praying and meditating for the purpose of reaching any sort of "altered state" is COMPLETELY forbidden in Orthodox spiritual practice; one must always be fully aware of himself and of God. The point of contemplative prayer is not to go into an altered, trance-like frame of mind, but into a clear frame of mind, realizing the presence and love of God within him and others around him. The point of contemplative prayer is to see the world far more clearly than when our hearts aren't attuned to God.

In context, this verse is reminding the people that God is their refuge in times of trouble and they need not fear, but are to be still ( literal meaning-cease, abate) and trust God who has shown Himself strong on their behalf before. This verse is really not saying anything about practicing or having mystical meditations or experiences.

It may not be about Dharmic-type experiences or practices, but it is certainly telling us to stop where we are, acknowledging and coming to know God and the marvelous works He does.

I agree that in the Christian context the mystery or mysteries have been revealed and they are revealed in the pages of the scriptures as shown by the BibleGateway link you included. I do not understand what is meant by this part of the quote above..."it leads into the depth of the darkness of God" and it contradicts the scriptures that God is Light and in Him there is no darkness.

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

I think you're missing the point of what +Metr. Kallistos was getting at; he was talking about how God is invisible, deep and unfathomable, like a chasm. He goes on to say that God's "darkness" is a dazzling and illuminating darkness.

The "darkness" as mentioned in John 1, on the other hand, refers to the darkness of sin, ignorance and death. This is clearly different from the "darkness" spoken of by +Metr. Kallistos.

 

[Me Myself]

We do need to reach an altered state of mind.

Of course we do.

We need to be in a loving state of mind, in the most loving compassionate and forgiving and peaceful state ofind that is completely submissive to God and the sisters and brothers around us so that we better serve them in perpetual comunion wiht the love and happiness and wisdom that is God.

If you are already in tht state a 100% without the need of even a little bit more happines love and understanding towards others, sure, you dont need to alter a thing in yourself

 

[Shiranui117]

We do need to reach an altered state of mind.

Of course we do.

We need to be in a loving state of mind, in the most loving compassionate and forgiving and peaceful state ofind that is completely submissive to God and the sisters and brothers around us so that we better serve them in perpetual comunion wiht the love and happiness and wisdom that is God.

If you are already in tht state a 100% without the need of even a little bit more happines love and understanding towards others, sure, you dont need to alter a thing in yourself

I agree, but I don't think that's what InChrist had in mind; I believe she was talking about things like going into trances and that kinda thing.

 

[Me Myself]

I agree, but I don't think that's what InChrist had in mind; I believe she was talking about things like going into trances and that kinda thing.

I dont think she knows what she has in mind.

For starters any state of mind that you get after using a technique or deliberately trying to focus on it can be called a "trance"

If you are not expecting God to alter your consciousness in some way after your asked for more faith or strength or wisdom, I cannot fathom what would you be expecting with a " give me faith!" prayer. Any positive increase in clarity, wisdom, willpower, resolution, love, faith, etc is an alteration of a stae of mind and can be called a trance.

 

[Open_Minded]

One of the most pertinent Scriptural verses on this subject comes from Psalm 46:10--"Be still, and know that I am God".

In context, this verse is reminding the people that God is their refuge in times of trouble and they need not fear, but are to be still ( literal meaning-cease, abate) and trust God who has shown Himself strong on their behalf before. This verse is really not saying anything about practicing or having mystical meditations or experiences.

InChrist - a few points:

1. Who among us truly "knows" God? Isn't the constant quest for "knowing" God a part of our human existence. Do you "know" God so well that you need not attempt any further "discovery" or "search"???? Do any of us?????
2. You may not perceive that verse as "saying anything about practicing or having mystical meditations or experiences" but there are many who do. And to my previous points, your personal perceptions of the Bible, your personal interpretations are yours. You don't get to dictate to the rest of humanity how to interpret Bible passages.
3. This is the most important question: What are you afraid of? Honestly - what about meditation, contemplation and the feared "mystical experiences" are you afraid of. You are so concerned about the Christian Contemplative tradition - why????

One observation should be noted here InChrist, and this observation is very important. You want to rely only on the Bible (no, not the Bible - your interpretation of the Bible) to know God. Well that way of "knowing" God has been tried and tested for 2000 years. It has led to violence and war over the one "TRUE" God.



Christian mysticism dates back very far as well, some scholars can date it to Biblical times itself. Find me one instance of Christian monastics waging war on other sects of Christians in "defense of their one true God". Anyone who has had union with God knows that to fight over a god concept is an insult to That which IS. By and large contemplatives are pacifists because they know violence is not the solution. They know you can not force people to see that which they can not - or refuse to - see.

 

[Windwalker]

I agree, but I don't think that's what InChrist had in mind; I believe she was talking about things like going into trances and that kinda thing.

There are those, myself included, who view "normal" consciousness as a trance. There is a researcher into the conditions of "normal" consciousness and how it creates a shroud of reality for its participants (pretty much everyone), which he refers to as "consensus trance". We are asleep, dreaming we're awake.

As far as entering altered states, your clear mind you mentioned is one of those. Or is it only altered to our normal state of slumber we call reality? And when it it first experienced it's altered, but then it too becomes normal.

I think there is a whole lot of speculation about these things coming from those who have no experience to speak from, who speak from the fear of what they don't understand. It's all the mysterious "thing", and therefore dangerous, some shadow in the dark kind of thing.

 

[no-body]

This is a moot argument. Mysticism is in line with anything and everything.

Jesus himself said the most important commandments are: "37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Nothing about the bible being the literal word of God or that the greatest commandment is John 3:15 no matter how much the fundies wish it was. It makes sense that Mysticism is hated as it is totally against the ego and cult of personality that is the bedrock of conservative Christianity.

 

[InChrist]

Direct contradiction to its teachings is the reason we have war - well I won't argue that point - because it has validity. But - it ignores war and violence wrought in the name of God and using the Bible as defense. Here is just one example of that kind of interpretation.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Never mind the fact that the Bible was used to justify slavery. It was used to justify beating women and children. It was used to justify keeping the vote from Women. It has been used to justify untold violence to untold numbers of humans throughout Christian history. Today it is used to justify discrimination against the LGBT community the same way it was used to justify discrimination against people of Color 50 years ago. Your assertations are false in the face of an objective reality that says otherwise.

As I said before many things have been and are done which are wrong and some people may use God or the Bible as their defense or excuse...but that does not make God or the Bible wrong because people are acting contrary to the scriptures.


[FONT=&quot] I think you are now off topic and simply attacking the Bible and there are other more appropriate threads for that subject. It would have been nice if you had included a link or source to go with the quote you posted attacking the scriptures, also. I'd be interested to know where you got that from. Anyway, I prefer to keep on the subject of mysticism in this thread.

[/FONT]

There is a difference between "cannot answer" and will not answer, there is. You may not like the difference but it is there none-the-less.

Cannot answer has more to do with your complete inability to show that your interpretration of the Bible is the "TRUE" interpretation. It is not physically possible to do because your interpretation is simply one interpretation among millions. For every single person who reads the Bible sees in it, what they see.

[FONT=&quot]I was not trying to show that my interpretation of the Bible is true. I'm only saying that the simple, plain words of the scriptures speak for themselves. For example, this verse... Jesus wept. (John 11:35), I believe says and means that Jesus wept or cried. And when I read this verse...If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.(1 John 1:8), says that we ( everyone, including me) lie to ourselves and are not honest or truthful if we say we don't sin.

Do you see something different when you read the above verses? I am also interested and asked you how you've come to your understanding and interpretations of the Bible and I am wondering why you didn't answer.

[/FONT]

You see in the Bible what you see. You see in me what you see - there is nothing I could say or do to make you see otherwise, because your mind is already made up.

Actually, you could answer my questions so I may gain a better understanding of your perspective.

I'll try to get to your more recent post and answer your question about what is there to fear, when I get the opportunity.

 

[InChrist]

Except praying and meditating for the purpose of reaching any sort of "altered state" is COMPLETELY forbidden in Orthodox spiritual practice; one must always be fully aware of himself and of God. The point of contemplative prayer is not to go into an altered, trance-like frame of mind, but into a clear frame of mind, realizing the presence and love of God within him and others around him. The point of contemplative prayer is to see the world far more clearly than when our hearts aren't attuned to God.

It may be that your view and the Orthodox view is that to go into an altered state is forbidden, but it seems that is not the case with many who promote or practice contemplative prayer. Even the few who have commented on this thread attest to this fact. From the research I've done on this subject those who become involved with contemplative prayer/meditation do go into an altered or self-hypnotic state of silence where the experiential takes precedence over the truths of scripture causing them to move toward an interspiritually mindset and a panentheistic understanding of God.

I think you're missing the point of what +Metr. Kallistos was getting at; he was talking about how God is invisible, deep and unfathomable, like a chasm. He goes on to say that God's "darkness" is a dazzling and illuminating darkness.

The "darkness" as mentioned in John 1, on the other hand, refers to the darkness of sin, ignorance and death. This is clearly different from the "darkness" spoken of by +Metr. Kallistos.

[/quote]


Okay, thank you for clarifying.

I'll try to respond to your other post when I have a chance.

 

[Windwalker]

Actually, you could answer my questions so I may gain a better understanding of your perspective.

I know this was not directed at me but at OM, but I have to point out how ironic it is that you recognize that others have different perspectives, yet when it comes to reading the Bible you don't see that YOU have a perspective, just as everyone else does. If you believe you can read the words on the page and see the "plain meaning", then you should be able to do that with everything everyone writes, including her, with no lack of clarity whatsoever that would lead you to ask for a "better understanding".

How is it you think there is only one meaning to the Bible, and it strangely just happens to be what you believe? Don't you see that as a tad too convenient?

 

[Shiranui117]

It may be that your view and the Orthodox view is that to go into an altered state is forbidden, but it seems that is not the case with many who promote or practice contemplative prayer. Even the few who have commented on this thread attest to this fact. From the research I've done on this subject those who become involved with contemplative prayer/meditation do go into an altered or self-hypnotic state of silence where the experiential takes precedence over the truths of scripture causing them to move toward an interspiritually mindset and a panentheistic understanding of God.

Those are the words of others; I can only attest to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, and the historic Christian understandings and practices. I don't know the backgrounds of Windwalker or Me Myself, or Open Minded, and so I cannot vouch for their own personal understandings.

If you really want to understand CHRISTIAN mysticism, your best bet is to become acquainted with the Orthodox tradition, and with the Catholic tradition. You can disregard anything that's New Age; that's not Christian.

Okay, thank you for clarifying.

I'll try to respond to your other post when I have a chance.

Sure thing, and feel no rush to respond to this post; you can answer the other one first.

 

[InChrist]

I know this was not directed at me but at OM, but I have to point out how ironic it is that you recognize that others have different perspectives, yet when it comes to reading the Bible you don't see that YOU have a perspective, just as everyone else does. If you believe you can read the words on the page and see the "plain meaning", then you should be able to do that with everything everyone writes, including her, with no lack of clarity whatsoever that would lead you to ask for a "better understanding".

How is it you think there is only one meaning to the Bible, and it strangely just happens to be what you believe? Don't you see that as a tad too convenient?

Well, I guess I have just always thought of language as objective, not subjective. When I read a recipe and make it and someones else likes it and asks for the recipe I usually assume when they read the words and follow the recipe they will get the same food item. I would be surprised if I gave someone a recipe for chocolate cake and they ended up with black bean soup.

When it comes to the scriptures, which I consider are God's Words, I think the one meaning is His intended meaning. I believe it is our job as the readers to seek God's meaning and not impose our own meanings.

 

[InChrist]

InChrist - a few points:

1. Who among us truly "knows" God? Isn't the constant quest for "knowing" God a part of our human existence. Do you "know" God so well that you need not attempt any further "discovery" or "search"???? Do any of us?????

Those who are saved by Christ and born-again and know God.

[quote ] 2.You may not perceive that verse as "saying anything about practicing or having mystical meditations or experiences" but there are many who do. And to my previous points, your personal perceptions of the Bible, your personal interpretations are yours. You don't get to dictate to the rest of humanity how to interpret Bible passages.

[/quote]

True, I don't get to dictate to anyone how to interpret the scriptures. I would just hope that you or anyone would desire to have the meaning God intended through the scriptures.

3.This is the most important question: What are you afraid of? Honestly - what about meditation, contemplation and the feared "mystical experiences" are you afraid of. You are so concerned about the Christian Contemplative tradition - why????

I am not afraid for myself, at least, since I would not depart from God's wisdom by delving into occult practices. I do fear those who do and may find themselves deceived by the false light and doctrines of demons.

One observation should be noted here InChrist, and this observation is very important. You want to rely only on the Bible (no, not the Bible - your interpretation of the Bible) to know God. Well that way of "knowing" God has been tried and tested for 2000 years. It has led to violence and war over the one "TRUE" God.

I think you are evading the real issue and generalizing here, by repeatedly blaming the Bible for war as if that is an excuse to reject its message or change it to suit yourself. Let's just focus on Jesus Christ...you do not blame Him personally for war and deny Him because of war, do you? So who do you say that Jesus Christ is? Is He the Savior? Did He pay for your sins?

Christian mysticism dates back very far as well, some scholars can date it to Biblical times itself. Find me one instance of Christian monastics waging war on other sects of Christians in "defense of their one true God". Anyone who has had union with God knows that to fight over a god concept is an insult to That which IS. By and large contemplatives are pacifists because they know violence is not the solution. They know you can not force people to see that which they can not - or refuse to - see.

[/quote]

I can say the same thing to you...find me one example of a born-again believers who waged war on others in defense of their one true God. Born again believers know that no one can be forced to believe the reality and truths of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. It is a matter of personal change which takes place in one's heart and can never be forced. I do know that the Catholic Church has a history of many who have lived the monastic life and not only have they practiced violent abuse against themselves as some kind of extra-biblical offer of suffering to God, but the Church has a history of internal abuse and going to war illegitimately in the name of Christ and forcing people around the world into Catholicism..

 

[Windwalker]

Well, I guess I have just always thought of language as objective, not subjective. When I read a recipe and make it and someones else likes it and asks for the recipe I usually assume when they read the words and follow the recipe they will get the same food item.

Recipes are descriptive words. What about poetry, or song lyrics, or even just expressions of human emotions, or abstract concepts, let alone expressions of spiritual insights? There is no way possible anyone can read those like a recipe card.

I will say this, if you mean the Bible is nothing more than this verse:

"Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof" Ez. 4:9​

Then you're right, the Bible is pretty clear. But do you think the parables are nothing higher in understanding than a recipe for granola or a chocolate cake?

 

[InChrist]

Recipes are descriptive words. What about poetry, or song lyrics, or even just expressions of human emotions, let alone expressions of spiritual insights? There is no way possible anyone can read those like a recipe card.

I will say this, if you mean the Bible is nothing more than this verse:

"Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof" Ez. 4:9​

Then you're right, the Bible is pretty clear. But do you think the parables are a recipe for granola?

I don't deny the poetry, parables, and symbolism of the scriptures, but most of the language is pretty straightforward and clear, especially concerning the nature of God, humanity, sin, the Savior, etc. When the language is clear, makes sense,and is plainly understandable, I see no reason to read it any other way than for what it says. Even many of the parables are explained by the scriptures themselves.

P.S. Are you a Christian? Who do you say Jesus Christ is?

 

[Windwalker]

I don't deny the poetry, parables, and symbolism of the scriptures

Then you need to admit that language is not objective. It is subjective, and the person always puts themselves into the meaning they take from it.

but most of the language is pretty straightforward and clear, especially concerning the nature of God, humanity, sin, the Savior, etc.

Then why isn't there one single religion all believing exactly the same things? These things you mention: the nature of God, humanity, etc, are extraordinary abstract and complex matters that take entire lifetimes of thought to begin to penetrate in any sort of meaningful way. If anyone says these things are clear, I say they are only clear to them because they haven't looked into them beyond some pure surface layer that has no actual value to spiritual growth - but a huge potential to start a war over, to echo OM's sentiments here.

Do you now how many theologians, scholars, priests, and mystics have spent the last 2000 years unraveling such questions? And yet, you have it figured out?

When the language is clear, makes sense,and is plainly understandable, I see no reason to read it any other way than for what it says.

Except when someone comes along and challenges your perspective that its as clear and simple as you presume. Those who have a great deal of time and energy invested in such depths, which you presume aren't there because it doesn't fit how you see things.

Now, that said, when it comes to mysticism, first your understanding of scripture in this regard is to say the least quick and dismissive. Secondly, it's based on ignorance of what mysticism, drawing off those who themselves are ignorant. Thirdly, I see it as based on fear. I can understand that, as to enter into the Deep, is indeed anything but a concrete-literal recipe one can follow.

But my real point, beside hoping to jog your thinking on these matters at least a little, is to ask you to address the real criteria of scripture in judging the truth of someones spirituality, "By their fruits you shall know them". If you judge someone who practices meditation as in error, then how is it that an evil tree bears good fruit? It may not be something you're ready to go into, which I'd say is probably likely, but that doesn't mean it isn't right for others.

 

[Open_Minded]

As I said before many things have been and are done which are wrong and some people may use God or the Bible as their defense or excuse...but that does not make God or the Bible wrong because people are acting contrary to the scriptures.

InChrist you are making my point. Those people see in the Bible what they see. You see in the Bible what you see. I see in the Bible what I see. It is subjective not objective. Just because you disagree with their interpretation of the Bible (I do as well) does not mean you have the "TRUE" understanding of the Bible. It simply means you see in the Bible something different than they see. That is why it is counter productive for Christians to debate different interpretations of the Bible - nothing can be solved because there is no way to prove that one interpretation is "TRUE" and the other "FALSE".

I will - however add one caveat to this, there are scholars who study:

1. The history of the Bible itself
2. The cultures the Bible was written in
3. The different languages of the Bible
4. The mythology within the Bible and the surrounding cultures
5. The language of Jesus and his disciples (There is still an Aramaic Bible used by Aramaic Christians).
6. The Gospels that were rejected and not included in the Bible

Those are just some of the things Biblical Scholars study and all of those things can impact the way one reads the Bible (they certainly impact the way I read the Bible). So ... I do think it is possible to make a scholarly case for an "authentic reading" of the Bible. But.. even that is debatable - scholars debate these things all the time and I think it can be safely said that we are not going to solve such debates here in this thread. Therefore - I think it is fair to say that we must all remain somewhat humble on our personal interpretations of what we read in the Bible. That is the standard on which I am willing to discuss any of these things with anyone.

[FONT="]I think you are now off topic and simply attacking the Bible and there are other more appropriate threads for that subject.[/FONT]

Think what you may, just recognize going forward that I will hold you to a higher standard on Biblical interpretation than you hold yourself to. I am personally exhausted with all the harm done within humanity because of this whole "TRUE" Christian, "TRUE" Biblical interpretation mindset. And I'll not participate.

It would have been nice if you had included a link or source to go with the quote you posted attacking the scriptures, also. I'd be interested to know where you got that from. Anyway, I prefer to keep on the subject of mysticism in this thread.

1. If it's the quote I'm thinking of I did - recheck the quote.
2. It doesn't matter anyway - because I found the quote by a quick google search on using the Bible to justify war or violence or something of the sort. You could do the same - it only takes a few minutes.

I was not trying to show that my interpretation of the Bible is true. I'm only saying that the simple, plain words of the scriptures speak for themselves. For example, this verse... Jesus wept. (John 11:35), I believe says and means that Jesus wept or cried. And when I read this verse...If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.(1 John 1:8), says that we ( everyone, including me) lie to ourselves and are not honest or truthful if we say we don't sin.

Do you see something different when you read the above verses? I am also interested and asked you how you've come to your understanding and interpretations of the Bible and I am wondering why you didn't answer.

See my points above - about all the different things that go into a scholarly reading of the Bible. The word "sin" alone should not be read "straight up". How many times has the Bible been translated from its original manuscripts. And the original manuscripts were not even written in the language Jesus and his disciples spoke. And the books that were included in the Bible were not the only gospels written - and those gospels point to a very different early Christian culture. All of these things can impact the reading of the Gospels.

Actually, you could answer my questions so I may gain a better understanding of your perspective.

It makes no sense to answer the question unless the recipient of the answer is listening with an open mind and open heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Open_Minded
InChrist - a few points:

1. Who among us truly "knows" God? Isn't the constant quest for "knowing" God a part of our human existence. Do you "know" God so well that you need not attempt any further "discovery" or "search"???? Do any of us?????

Those who are saved by Christ and born-again and know God

.

So... you think you "know" God... you don't need any more insight to THIS that we call GOD????? That is nothing short of arrogance.

True, I don't get to dictate to anyone how to interpret the scriptures. I would just hope that you or anyone would desire to have the meaning God intended through the scriptures.

I do ... that's not the point. I just have no reason to believe that you qualify to give me the answers I seek. Every question you've asked of me reveals someone who think she has the "inside track" to God because she's "saved".

I think you are evading the real issue and generalizing here, by repeatedly blaming the Bible for war

Let us be VERY clear here InChrist - I blame the Bible for nothing. I blame the arrogance of human beings who think they have the "TRUE" understanding of the Bible and use their understanding of the Bible to justify violence towards other human beings. It is that dynamic which causes me to be very leery of anyone who thinks they have all the answers.

I can say the same thing to you...find me one example of a born-again believers who waged war on others in defense of their one true God.

I seriously can't believe you asked that question - but you did and here's your answer

George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month....

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did." ...

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."
Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact which brings him much support in middle America.

Beyond that ... let's look at this whole "born-again" Christian superiority complex. When someone self-identifies themselves as Christian to me, I take them at their word. Why would anyone self-identify as Christian if they did not take the label seriously.


It amazes me that born-again Christians have a litmus test for TRUE Christianity. It is revealed in questions like this:

Is Jesus Christ alone your Savior who paid for your sins on the cross through whom you have forgiveness and eternal life?

The arrogance portrayed in that question is astonishing - it is one of the reasons I refuse to answer. If I don't need a litmus test from you, why do you need one from me (or anyone else for that matter)?