Throw Grandma in Jail and Throw Away the Key?

Wildswanderer · Aug 7, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
No one was arrested for political views. Why didn't you read the linked article that told you how she broke the law?

I did read an article posted... and found no reason for a prison term.

Revoltingest · Aug 7, 2022

Wildswanderer said:
I did read an article posted... and found no reason for a prison term.

At least she got a very short one.
No one "threw away the key".

InChrist · Aug 8, 2022

It Aint Necessarily So said:
That strongman deity is what appeals to many about Christianity. Many Christians are kind, gentle people as I suspect you are, and gravitate toward the deity that represents their disposition, the God of love and mercy as they call it. Others are worshiping the strongman. They like that he gives orders and metes out severe punishment. These are the people who like to tell us unbelievers that they will be in hell and regret it then, but it'll be too late. They're angry at atheists and want them punished. And so, we see both types of Christians and a spectrum between.

We see the same in American voters. Trump and Biden are the two archetypes - kick a** and take names later authoritarianism versus the contemplative, gentle type. People gravitate to the candidate that reflects their own psychology.

Also, I just wanted to remind you that those quotes are not what caused me to leave Christianity. I mentioned them as evidence that Christianity very much teaches that perdition is eternal torture, and not in the sense of being separated from God, but of being eternally burned and impaled.

I was in the Army in the seventies when I decided to give Christianity a chance. It's probably relevant that my life was in a bit of a shambles. I graduated high school early and went to university, where I found that I lacked the discipline to get myself to class. I dropped out just before flunking out. This was a huge setback, as I had always been an academic achiever, and my dream was to become a physician in an era when getting into medical school was extremely competitive. I saw myself throwing my life away, helpless to right the ship. That's why I chose the Army - imposed structure and discipline.

It was a good choice that accomplished its intended purpose - but that was out of the frying pan into the fire. I was really out of my element now, and far from home. Stress levels rose, and I think that in large part is why I found Christianity appealing. I think most people come into the religion from childhood, where it is just their family and community culture. But those who come later often have a personal crisis of sorts, which is why I always said that it is easier to find converts on Skid Row and Death Row than Restaurant Row.

My initial congregation was Pentecostal. They spoke in tongues, although I never did. We had a gifted and charismatic preacher, and Sundays were always Spirit-filled. When my army days ended, I returned to my home state, and began looking for another congregation. I tried other Pentecostal churches, but also Baptist and Methodist, and found them all lifeless. Where did the Spirit go? It didn't follow me back to California. I eventually understood what that meant - I had misunderstood the significance of the euphoria in the first congregation as the Holy Spirit. As I said, even though I had agreed to suspend disbelief to try the religion out, I apparently never lost the ability to evaluate evidence. I had made a mistake interpreting the euphoria.

By this time, I was back at university and accomplishing my goals, so all my angst had been resolved - both the angst of looming academic failure, and that of being lonesome and a long way from home.

But it doesn't make sense. We have animal urges and the ability to manifest them. Why would a good god give people the desire and ability to hurt one another and ruin lives, and then end up in hell? It wouldn't. You wouldn't. I wouldn't. If we had the power of a god and could cause our children to never want to rob a convenience store or become addicted to cocaine, we would take that possibility away from them by programming that option out.

As you know, I don't believe that there was a god granting free will. I believe we live in a godless universe (or one indistinguishable from a godless universe), where we would expect animals to have instincts and urges naturally as a survival mechanism. Man has evolved to now possess higher cortical centers, where intellect and conscience reside, and which give him contradictory commands to those coming from the older reptilian and mammalian centers. A male dog sees a female dog and mounts her. Man has the same instincts, which he must tame or harm others and face prison. This is just how it is for us. It would be a mess for an intelligent designer to have caused, but understandable if we just evolved.

How does Christianity depict this? Free will is a gift from God. Some gift. God doesn't want robots. Why not? I do, if by robot we mean people who reliably make good choices and never will harm to others. I want my friends to be that kind of a "robot." This robot depiction suggests empty heads. Not at all. Why wouldn't people with no will but the will to do good and right have full and satisfying lives that they would choose to live again and again?

As with many other issues theists face, such as why God chooses to give man a dual nature and also free will to express either, one of which leads to unhappiness for self and others, these problems evaporate away with atheism, as you have seen. The atheist doesn't need to resort to verbal gymnastics to explain that.

Thank you for your response, especially sharing your life experiences, time involved with Christianity/churches, your thoughts from the perspective of atheism, etc. I think you’ve shared some in the past from other posts, but I really appreciate the further details and insight. I am going to respond the best I can, but forgive me if I leave something out. Your post is long with several points or thoughts I could address, but I only have an iPhone and and old one at that. It’s more difficult for me to respond to long posts on the phone.

You certainly don’t have to agree with me, but I honestly don’t think I have to use verbal gymnastics to explain things concerning God and/or the scriptures. I used to find the Bible confusing or even nonsensical. Then I was saved and changed. I am not exaggerating when I say that literally in a 24 hour period it was as if my eyes were opened and I could actually read the Bible and it made sense; from Genesis to Revelation! It’s not like I fully understood everything, but the overall theme, message and God’s historical into eternal plan made sense.

So I will respond to you from my perspective as grounded in the scriptures, which I believe to be the Creator’s revelation. I do understand this is not your Brie, though.

I think the reason God did not design, nor wants robotic creatures is very simple and answered in one word; LOVE

. I think real, authentic love must be given freely by choice and God knows that. You seem to wonder,
“Why would a good god give people the desire and ability to hurt one another and ruin lives” or why would anyone have the desire to rob stores? I can agree a good God would not design people with those desires and the scriptures say God’s creation was good. So where do evil desires come from? The scriptures speak of “ the mystery of iniquity”. What is iniquity? I would say basically that it is sin (missing the mark, incorrect behavior) in particular the sin of a created being thinking they are independent of their Creator and even thinking they could exalt themself above God the Creator. This is what the scriptures say Lucifer did. I truly find this to be a mystery and outright insanity that a being who was fully aware of Who God was (His eternal power, holiness, goodness) would think he could rebel and usurp his Creator. Yet, according to the scriptures Lucifer/ the devil did this and then the deceived the first humans to think they could also trust an opposing opinion and their wisdom over God’s love. So my view is that sin, all sin, but in particular this idea that a created being can live independently or in defiance of their Creator and sole Source of life twists or damages God’s good design and results in wrong desires with detrimental, harmful consequences to the individual, others, communities, and the world.

You said you were mistaken thinking that the euphoria you experienced was the Holy Spirit. Likely you were. I had my own experience with a Charismatic “spirit-filled” church and most of what went on was not the Holy Spirit, nor in line with the scriptures. Yet, that’s what you kept looking for when visiting other churches. I don’t think church is Jesus. Charismatic pastors or any pastors are not Jesus. So I wonder did you ever actually know the real Person and Savior Jesus Christ. What if you gave up before knowing Him? What if your expectations were off? If so, how do you know atheism was the only answer?
You don’t have to respond or answer. Obviously, we have different perspectives. I do want to honestly say I don’t hate atheists, nor do I want to see anyone reject God’s love or be separated from the Source of life and love forever. It’s the saddest thing I can think of. Those who revel in the idea of they enemies in hell really are missing the point of the scriptures, the truth of the Gospel, and especially the heart and love of God.

InChrist · Aug 8, 2022

F1fan said:
Sure, they just enough brain cells to make a decision. Dogs and cats can make decisions. What God did not do was give Adam and Eve enough wisdom and discipline to obey. Look at the set up, the tree of knowledge is essential what WOULD give them the wisdom to know better. But God made them without the necessary knowledge and skill to make a good decision. To really screw them over God created Satan (serpent) and was placed in the Garden to tempt them.

So perhaps grandma is as dumb as a dog who keeps pooping on the floor and Trump is the serpent tempting her to keep pooping on the floor, and now she faces punishment because she should have known better, like the vast majority of voters.

Really? Where is that in the Genesis myth? Or are you making it up because the whole story is simplistic and absurd? Besides the tree of knowledge IS knowledge. There is no knowledge to gain without disobeying God. They are essentially animals like any other animal.

And why did God create a being that would lie to them? Why did God put the serpent in the Garden IF God really, really wanted A&E to obey? BTW, the serpent told them the truth.

Irrelevant. If they don't understand the rule then what difference does one or 100 make? How many times do you need to scold a dog before it stops pooping on the floor? Give it one rule and they do not understand right away.

Having free will does not mean stupid. Humans have this "free will" but some have poor judgment while others have good judgment. God did not make A&E with good judgment, but he could have if he really, really wanted them to obey.

Do you really think that if God really, really wanted these beings to obey the rule that is could not create them capable of obedience? God didn't. If you build a perfect car that will never break down, but it breaks down after a week, you don't blame the car. There is a flaw that the designer/builder caused.

OK, so God is incapable of creating anything perfect according to you. So you are admitting that A&E had some defect and the Garden was not a perfect creation, so there would be decay eventually. It is inevitable that the Garden would collapse, and that was due to the unavoidable limitation of God's ability to create perfection. Is that somewhere in the Genesis myth? Or are you making it up because the usual Evangelical Christian interpretation is flawed?

Human beings created in the image of God, are not cars. If God wanted mechanical like creatures He could have made perfectly smooth running programmed robotic creatures. But He didn’t, so I assume He wanted living beings capable of making their own ( not programmed) authentic choices, ultimately choosing goodness and love.

Subduction Zone · Aug 8, 2022

InChrist said:
Human beings created in the image of God, are not cars. If God wanted mechanical like creatures He could have made perfectly smooth running programmed robotic creatures. But He didn’t, so I assume He wanted living beings capable of making their own ( not programmed) authentic choices, ultimately choosing goodness and love.

Fine, God did not want robots. The problem is that he would have known ahead of time which ones would accept him and which ones would not. That along with his omnipotence makes him the guilty part for anyone that does not accept him. His hell is immoral.

And anyone that thinks the whole Bible makes sense is only suffering from severe cognitive dissonance.

F1fan · Aug 8, 2022

InChrist said:
Human beings created in the image of God, are not cars.

I didn't say they were cars. I was making a point that if someone, especially a God, creates something with an expectation to perform a certain way, then it fails to meet the expectation, then the creation and/or creator are flawed.

If God wanted mechanical like creatures He could have made perfectly smooth running programmed robotic creatures. But He didn’t, so I assume He wanted living beings capable of making their own ( not programmed) authentic choices, ultimately choosing goodness and love.

As I already explained it is not about making decisions, which all animals can do. It's about making informed and wise choices, and A&E were not capable of making good choices, thus easily tempted. You offer no rebuttal for this flaw in God's design. If God creates beings and then sets rules, but the beings are easily duped to disobey, then there is a problem.

The irony today is why Evangelical Christians make the poor decision to interpret Genesis literally. Even Jews don't do this, and it is their book.

It Aint Necessarily So · Aug 8, 2022

InChrist said:
I used to find the Bible confusing or even nonsensical. Then I was saved and changed. I am not exaggerating when I say that literally in a 24 hour period it was as if my eyes were opened and I could actually read the Bible and it made sense; from Genesis to Revelation! It’s not like I fully understood everything, but the overall theme, message and God’s historical into eternal plan made sense.

That didn't happen with me, so naturally, I moved on. Why did we have different experiences? You say because something divine transpired for you. Why not for every sincere seeker? Whatever the answers - there is no such god, this god rejected me, this god sent signals I couldn't receive, whatever - this path was a dead end for me, and so I left it. THAT was the conversion where I had the experience you had - everything now makes a lot more sense.

As I've explained earlier, with atheism, all of the enigmas of the theist vanish. I accept that as meaningful. Any paradigm shift that greatly simplifies without a loss of explanatory or predictive power is preferred and more likely correct. It's an aha moment, as when finally recognizing why all of those things are missing from your home that were previously explained with a dozen ad hoc explanations, but now you know that the neighbor kid has been coming in while you're gone because you caught him to your great surprise. New paradigm, much simpler, and much more likely to be correct.

InChrist said:
The scriptures speak of “ the mystery of iniquity”. What is iniquity? I would say basically that it is sin (missing the mark, incorrect behavior) in particular the sin of a created being thinking they are independent of their Creator and even thinking they could exalt themself above God the Creator. This is what the scriptures say Lucifer did. I truly find this to be a mystery and outright insanity that a being who was fully aware of Who God was (His eternal power, holiness, goodness) would think he could rebel and usurp his Creator. Yet, according to the scriptures Lucifer/ the devil did this and then the deceived the first humans to think they could also trust an opposing opinion and their wisdom over God’s love. So my view is that sin, all sin, but in particular this idea that a created being can live independently or in defiance of their Creator and sole Source of life twists or damages God’s good design and results in wrong desires with detrimental, harmful consequences to the individual, others, communities, and the world.

I have a simpler explanation. You already know it.

InChrist said:
I honestly don’t think I have to use verbal gymnastics to explain things concerning God and/or the scriptures.

I'd call your last comment an example of mental gymnastics. There is no mystery of iniquity in humanism. It's perfectly natural for human beings to want to say or take whatever they want, and many have little oversight from intellectual or moral cortical centers to modify or inhibit such primitive urges inherited from the beasts.

InChrist said:
So I wonder did you ever actually know the real Person and Savior Jesus Christ. What if you gave up before knowing Him? What if your expectations were off? If so, how do you know atheism was the only answer?

If there is a god that wants me to know it, it knows how to accomplish that. I have never heard from one. I understand that within Christianity, that is ALWAYS the seekers fault, but I reject all of that. I did my my due diligence, and concluded that this god doesn't exist.

Thanks for your interest and good cheer, but theism just isn't an option for me any more short of a deity presenting itself to me, and that's not going to happen.

SkepticThinker · Aug 8, 2022

Wildswanderer said:
Then all those who participated in the BLM riots should be in prison also, but they aren't.

Thousands of them were. As I've already pointed out to you.
Read better news sources.

SkepticThinker · Aug 8, 2022

InChrist said:
God did not design a universe in a way that some children are born with defects or cancer. According to the scriptures, God designed a universe in which everything was good. God designed the earth which was a paradise; the beautiful garden of Eden. All was good. God GAVE humanity stewardship over the earth. Humans were supposed to listen to God’s wisdom and take care of the earth and love one another. Instead, humans rebelled, sinned and brought disease, violence, and destruction upon this world. Humans are responsible. As I said God’s goal is eternal, He is not going to fix humanity mistakes, sins and resulting damage. Rather, let people learn the consequences of sin, as He freely offers forgiveness and a transformed life through Christ and a perfect eternity free of pain, sickness, or tears in the new heaven and earth.

Sometimes, God does intervene and miraculously heal. So praying is important and not in vain. But as Jesus prayed to the Father, “ Your will be done”, because He sees the eternal picture and knows the best answer for each situation.

So it's the little babies' fault that they have cancer. Sometimes you can pray for healing but mostly, God won't listen.
Why do you worship this horrible God?

InChrist · Aug 8, 2022

F1fan said:
I didn't say they were cars. I was making a point that if someone, especially a God, creates something with an expectation to perform a certain way, then it fails to meet the expectation, then the creation and/or creator are flawed.

As I already explained it is not about making decisions, which all animals can do. It's about making informed and wise choices, and A&E were not capable of making good choices, thus easily tempted. You offer no rebuttal for this flaw in God's design. If God creates beings and then sets rules, but the beings are easily duped to disobey, then there is a problem.

The irony today is why Evangelical Christians make the poor decision to interpret Genesis literally. Even Jews don't do this, and it is their book.

You may not have said human beings were cars, but you compared them to cars as if there’s not much doing the way they should be designed or operate. I see a huge difference between a non-living mechanical thing and a living human being.

There was no flaw in God’s design. How could an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator create a flawed creation? According to the scriptures. A&E walked with God each day. They shared conversation and friendship. They saw the beauty and provision He bestowed upon them in the garden. They knew God’s love for them, They were not uniformed, nor easily deceived. They chose to believe the lie instead of obeying and trusting God’s instruction and wisdom. They already knew it was wrong.

InChrist · Aug 8, 2022

SkepticThinker said:
So it's the little babies' fault that they have cancer. Sometimes you can pray for healing but mostly, God won't listen.
Why do you worship this horrible God?

I never said it’s the fault of little babies. Show me where I said that.

InChrist · Aug 8, 2022

It Aint Necessarily So said:
That didn't happen with me, so naturally, I moved on. Why did we have different experiences? You say because something divine transpired for you. Why not for every sincere seeker? Whatever the answers - there is no such god, this god rejected me, this god sent signals I couldn't receive, whatever - this path was a dead end for me, and so I left it. THAT was the conversion where I had the experience you had - everything now makes a lot more sense.

As I've explained earlier, with atheism, all of the enigmas of the theist vanish. I accept that as meaningful. Any paradigm shift that greatly simplifies without a loss of explanatory or predictive power is preferred and more likely correct. It's an aha moment, as when finally recognizing why all of those things are missing from your home that were previously explained with a dozen ad hoc explanations, but now you know that the neighbor kid has been coming in while you're gone because you caught him to your great surprise. New paradigm, much simpler, and much more likely to be correct.

I have a simpler explanation. You already know it.

I'd call your last comment an example of mental gymnastics. There is no mystery of iniquity in humanism. It's perfectly natural for human beings to want to say or take whatever they want, and many have little oversight from intellectual or moral cortical centers to modify or inhibit such primitive urges inherited from the beasts.

If there is a god that wants me to know it, it knows how to accomplish that. I have never heard from one. I understand that within Christianity, that is ALWAYS the seekers fault, but I reject all of that. I did my my due diligence, and concluded that this god doesn't exist.

Thanks for your interest and good cheer, but theism just isn't an option for me any more short of a deity presenting itself to me, and that's not going to happen.

As I said previously, we just have very different perspectives and we’ll likely have to leave it at that. I will say I don’t think God has rejected you, nor not responded. I believe He is actively providing opportunities in everyone’s life to come to Him. You asked... “Why not for every sincere seeker?“. I believe He does answer every sincere seeker, but it has to be seeking the truth, God’s truth, not our own desires, self- fulfillment, or God of our imagination.
Anyway, I apologize because this is really off topic from the thread and it’s probably my fault. Thanks again, though, for the conversation.

InChrist · Aug 8, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
Fine, God did not want robots. The problem is that he would have known ahead of time which ones would accept him and which ones would not. That along with his omnipotence makes him the guilty part for anyone that does not accept him. His hell is immoral.

And anyone that thinks the whole Bible makes sense is only suffering from severe cognitive dissonance.

Yes, God would have known ahead of time who would accept Him or not. Knowing is NOT causing. God never causes or forces anyone to reject His love. On the contrary, it’s not His will or desire that anyone do so. Therefore, God is not guilty. Those who reject His love and the eternal home He invites all to, are guilty.

Hell is hell because being separated from the Source of life, love, joy, beauty, creativity, peace and all that is good will be an awful state to be in. The scriptures are clear that God doesn’t want any to perish to that state, but He will not force anyone into heaven.

SkepticThinker · Aug 8, 2022

InChrist said:
I never said it’s the fault of little babies. Show me where I said that.

That's the gist of what you said, as I see it. Humans are responsible for things like cancer, not God (according to you). You also said that sometimes God will miraculously step in and heal babies with cancer, but not always. Just sometimes. Babies are humans. Since humans are responsible for things like cancer, then babies are responsible for their own cancer.

Subduction Zone · Aug 8, 2022

InChrist said:
Yes, God would have known ahead of time who would accept Him or not. Knowing is NOT causing. God never causes or forces anyone to reject His love. On the contrary, it’s not His will or desire that anyone do so. Therefore, God is not guilty. Those who reject His love and the eternal home He invites all to, are guilty.

Hell is hell because being separated from the Source of life, love, joy, beauty, creativity, peace and all that is good will be an awful state to be in. The scriptures are clear that God doesn’t want any to perish to that state, but He will not force anyone into heaven.

It is causing when one is both omnipotent and omniscient. If you want to admit that your God is neither then we can discuss this more. But as long as you hold on to that belief your God is at fault.

Subduction Zone · Aug 8, 2022

SkepticThinker said:
That's the gist of what you said, as I see it. Humans are responsible for things like cancer, not God (according to you). You also said that sometimes God will miraculously step in and heal babies with cancer, but not always. Just sometimes. Babies are humans. Since humans are responsible for things like cancer, then babies are responsible for their own cancer.

The Bible says that God is at fault if one reads it literally.

It Aint Necessarily So · Aug 8, 2022

InChrist said:
I will say I don’t think God has rejected you, nor not responded.

Agreed. I was only listing logical possibilities - three that I could think of off the top of my head. As you know, I consider the most likely explanation to be that deities like the Christian deity don't exist. But that's not the only reason I believe that. One is an argument from evidence - the evidence that supports the theory of evolution - and the other from pure reason, in the logical impossible married bachelor tradition..

InChrist said:
“Why not for every sincere seeker?“. I believe He does answer every sincere seeker, but it has to be seeking the truth, God’s truth, not our own desires, self- fulfillment, or God of our imagination.

Here's more of the mental gymnastics applied to another dilemma resulting from theism which is easily resolved with atheism. You don't want to call me a failure, or incompetent at finding what would be the major feature of reality if it existed - something far more powerful that the sun or gravity, both of which are self-evident to anybody with eyes - but you have to. What choice do you have if you assume that this god is real, wants to be known, and I didn't find it? But you don't want to use that language because you understand that it is offensive, and hopefully you understand that it is also unfair and unkind, but such are the ramifications of belief by faith. No offense taken.

Sgt. Pepper · Aug 8, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
The Bible says that God is at fault if one reads it literally.

According to Isaiah 45:7, God creates evil.

I think this verse is as plain as day, but devout Christians still adamantly deny what it plainly says.

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

According to the Bible, God is omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If, in fact, God has infinite power, infinite knowledge, and is present everywhere simultaneously, then it stands to reason that he knew before he created Adam and Eve that they would be tempted by the apple, and they would disobey him by taking a bite of the apple. If the Bible is accurate, then God knew that the fall of mankind would happen before he even created Adam and Eve. Yet, he creates them, they disobey him, they fall into sin, and he curses the rest of humanity for Adam's sin. God punishes every person born afterward for a sin that they did not commit and had no control over.

If the bible is accurate about God being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then it stands to reason that he knows everything that has happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future. The Bible also claims that God knows our innermost being, and he knew us before we were born (Psalm 139:13-16). Furthermore, if he is all-knowing, then he knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made and will make today as well as the decisions we will make in the future.

If he created mankind with the full knowledge of the impending fall, then he is wrong to hold humanity responsible for the sins that are committed against him. Moreover, if he created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple, which resulted in them taking a bite and disobeying him, then he was also wrong to hold them responsible for their sin against him.

InChrist · Aug 8, 2022

It Aint Necessarily So said:
Agreed. I was only listing logical possibilities - three that I could think of off the top of my head. As you know, I consider the most likely explanation to be that deities like the Christian deity don't exist. But that's not the only reason I believe that. One is an argument from evidence - the evidence that supports the theory of evolution - and the other from pure reason, in the logical impossible married bachelor tradition..

Here's more of the mental gymnastics applied to another dilemma resulting from theism which is easily resolved with atheism. You don't want to call me a failure, or incompetent at finding what would be the major feature of reality if it existed - something far more powerful that the sun or gravity, both of which are self-evident to anybody with eyes - but you have to. What choice do you have if you assume that this god is real, wants to be known, and I didn't find it? But you don't want to use that language because you understand that it is offensive, and hopefully you understand that it is also unfair and unkind, but such are the ramifications of belief by faith. No offense taken.

Actually, I am not calling you a failure for two reasons.
1) your life is not over yet, so neither you nor I know the end or whether at some point you’ll come to find & know God.
2) If I call you a failure, then I should call myself a failure also. We all fall short and fail and are in need of a Savior (in my perspective).

InChrist · Aug 8, 2022

Sgt. Pepper said:
According to Isaiah 45:7, God creates evil.

I think this verse is as plain as day, but devout Christians still adamantly deny what it plainly says.

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

According to the Bible, God is omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If, in fact, God has infinite power, infinite knowledge, and is present everywhere simultaneously, then it stands to reason that he knew before he created Adam and Eve that they would be tempted by the apple, and they would disobey him by taking a bite of the apple. If the Bible is accurate, then God knew that the fall of mankind would happen before he even created Adam and Eve. Yet, he creates them, they disobey him, they fall into sin, and he curses the rest of humanity for Adam's sin. God punishes every person born afterward for a sin that they did not commit and had no control over.

If the bible is accurate about God being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then it stands to reason that he knows everything that has happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future. The Bible also claims that God knows our innermost being, and he knew us before we were born (Psalm 139:13-16). Furthermore, if he is all-knowing, then he knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made and will make today as well as the decisions we will make in the future.

If he created mankind with the full knowledge of the impending fall, then he is wrong to hold humanity responsible for the sins that are committed against him. Moreover, if he created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple, which resulted in them taking a bite and disobeying him, then he was also wrong to hold them responsible for their sin against him.

That is a favorite verse atheists or others who like to denigrate God, pull out of context to say something it doesn’t say. First, the entirety of the scriptures declare God to be Holy, Righteous, Pure, Good... so there would not be one verse saying God creates moral evil which is completely against His Nature, Character and Being. So the verse means something else when read in context.
Did God create evil? | GotQuestions.org

I think it’s a false charge that if God knew humans would fall, sin or bring harm and damage into the world, then God is at fault, evil or that this somehow proves God doesn’t exist. If this world is all there is, then one of those conclusions may be the case. But according to the scriptures, this is not the end. God has a far greater goal and plan. There is no reason to assume that the Creator God, being all-good and all-powerful, would prevent suffering on this earth if out of suffering he could bring about a good that is far greater than any that would have existed otherwise. Why should finite humans make assumptions about an infinite Being? Certainly such assumptions could be very wrong.

As Paul said...
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Romans 8:18

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