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Throw Grandma in Jail and Throw Away the Key?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
All the first Christians of the early church were Jews who believed the historical accuracy of the OT
Because they had no evidence to the contrary, which now we have an abundance of. Most observant Jews today view the creation accounts as allegory, which had been hypothesized even before the science, such as with the great Jewish scholar Maimonides back in the 12th century.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You are leaving something out; you are saying, “the tree of knowledge”, but the text says, “the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL”. There’s a big difference. Adam and Eve were not lacking knowledge. What they did lack was an experiential knowledge of good and evil, because as the scriptures say they were innocent, pure; innocent of evil.
This doesn't;t her your position or hurt my argument. To address your statement here directly and assume A&E had some knowledge, you acknowledge they had no knowledge of good or evil, so how would they know God was good and Satan was evil? They wouldn't. They wouldn't know the difference of who to obey. The tree of knowledge has to be significant in some way, and prohibited for some reason. The story doesn't explain why, but in any event God supposedly wanted A&E to be obedient and did things to ensure they failed.

Jews like Paul, Luke, Jesus, Peter, and John refer to the people and events of Genesis as REAL history. All the first Christians of the early church were Jews who believed the historical accuracy of the OT.
That was 2000 years ago and modern Jews and most Christians don't assume these stories are literal, and that is due to modern, expert knowledge. Anyone who assumes these stories are literal have adopted an interpretive style from their religious experience. No one can lay out an objective and factual argument for interpreting these stories literally, quite the opposite. Only very conservative Christians interpret Genesis literally, no one else does. There are even religious disinformation businesses like Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute that read disinformation about science and use this bad, literalist interpretation of Genesis. To my mind these people are evil, and you are making as poor a decision to trust these people as Adam trusted Satan in the myth. This illustrates how you are likely missing truths, but are too confident and prideful to consider it.

No one told me to literally believe the scriptures.
You adopted this interpretation style from somewhere, whether it was family, church, internet activity, etc. Did your parents interpret the Bible literally when you were growing up?

The day I was saved by Christ I knew the Biblical scriptures were true, and reading them from then on became understandable. I wasn’t saved in a church, but at home with only my husband who was also saved that same day. If anyone taught us; it was Jesus.
Well now you need to be saved from an irrational and counter-factual interpretation of the bIble. If you can't get facts right what is the chance you got religious doctrine right?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
If God created Adam and Eve as immature, ignorant children, maybe you’d have a point. But I don’t think that’s the case. Adam and Eve were not stupid or uninformed, they were intelligent, mature adults and God gave they stewardship and authority over everything on earth. So, from my perspective your analogy with the teacher, kids, vitamins and meth is in no way applicable.
You don’t have to believe Genesis or that God is good, it’s your decision. I do though. I believe the scriptures are to be taken literally when the plain reading of them and context implies they should be and taken symbolically when the symbolism is obvious. As well, scripture often interprets scripture and brings clarification.

Have a good night.
Except for the whole part of them not having knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Sounds pretty uninformed to me. :shrug:
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Except for the whole part of them not having knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Sounds pretty uninformed to me. :shrug:
The scriptures do not say they didn’t know the difference between good and evil. A person does not have to be a meth addict or participant in illegal activity to know these are wrong. I believe the scriptures mean that Adam and Eve did not know evil in an EXPERIENTIAL way. They were originally innocent of evil and were created good. This doesn’t mean they didn’t understand right or wrong, especially since they spent time talking to God everyday. They were informed.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Because they had no evidence to the contrary, which now we have an abundance of. Most observant Jews today view the creation accounts as allegory, which had been hypothesized even before the science, such as with the great Jewish scholar Maimonides back in the 12th century.
You mean to tell me, Jesus, had no evidence to the contrary? Jesus, the only begotten eternal Son of God?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The scriptures do not say they didn’t know the difference between good and evil. A person does not have to be a meth addict or participant in illegal activity to know these are wrong. I believe the scriptures mean that Adam and Eve did not know evil in an EXPERIENTIAL way. They were originally innocent of evil and were created good. This doesn’t mean they didn’t understand right or wrong, especially since they spent time talking to God everyday. They were informed.
Having not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, how would they have knowledge of good and evil?

We're not talking about the average person living in 2022. We're (supposedly) talking about the very first two people that were created without knowledge of good and evil. In other words, they couldn't have known the difference between a good action and an evil action. How could they?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Sorry, but it is not humans that tell us that the Bible is not literally true. It is the Earth itself. you are trying to have it both ways again and that does not work. If God made the Earth then there either was no Flood of Noah or God is a liar. It is your choice. His creation tells us that there was no flood.

Perhaps you should try to learn the difference between knowledge and mere belief. All you have is mere belief. You do not know, no matter how hard that you believe. Knowledge is demonstrable and you cannot demonstrate any of your beliefs to be correct.

That is why most Christians do not believe the myths of Genesis. Most Christians cannot bring themselves to believe in a lying God.
The earth can only tell geologists, archeologists and others a limited amount of information concerning events which occurred so long ago. As well, the interpretation of such information can be highly influenced by the individuals worldview. So, I think God’s revelation concerning ancient history is vital for accuracy.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Having not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, how would they have knowledge of good and evil?

We're not talking about the average person living in 2022. We're (supposedly) talking about the very first two people that were created without knowledge of good and evil. In other words, they couldn't have known the difference between a good action and an evil action. How could they?
God told them. That is how. I told my kids the difference between good and evil or right and wrong. They didn’t have to try or experience every wrong thing, to know it was wrong.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
God told them. That is how. I told my kids the difference between good and evil or right and wrong. They didn’t have to try or experience every wrong thing, to know it was wrong.
If that's true, then this is a rather weird passage, isn't it?

1 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

It's also kinda weird that apparently being naked is evil, since it was after they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they noticed they were naked and felt weird about it.

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”



It's also kinda weird that Adam and Eve were able to hide from the all-knowing, all-seeing creator of the universe. But, I digress.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
My parents did not read the Bible.
Many Christians don't. But you avoided explaining how you heard about literal interpretations of the Bible versus the more reasoned and modern approach. You don't live alone on an island, do you? You have internet access, so how did you hear about your preferred manner of interpretation?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The earth can only tell geologists, archeologists and others a limited amount of information concerning events which occurred so long ago. As well, the interpretation of such information can be highly influenced by the individuals worldview. So, I think God’s revelation concerning ancient history is vital for accuracy.
It can tell us quite a lot. Tell me your version of the Flood and I will tell you how we know that it is wrong. And the sciences take steps to limit personal bias as much as possible. In something as silly as the magic boat story it is no problem limiting personal beliefs.

I may have to ask you some clarifying questions.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The earth can only tell geologists, archeologists and others a limited amount of information concerning events which occurred so long ago. As well, the interpretation of such information can be highly influenced by the individuals worldview. So, I think God’s revelation concerning ancient history is vital for accuracy.
Just more contempt for science indicated here. When I was in college I picked up a coy of Cell Magazine in a lobby just out of curiosity. Jesus, it was way over my head. This was just a magazine about recent biological discoveries about how cells work. I had no idea that science knew so much, and that was 30 years ago. Those who lack a good general grasp of science tend to be ignorant about how much science can know, and this tends to be a basic tendency of conservative Christians. How else can they justify their obsolete beliefs about the world if they had knowledge.

As I point out, many conservative Christians seem to follow the example of Adam and Eve and avoid the tree of knowledge. Oddly these people have decided to pick the bad over the good, and they don't want to know it. Science is the forbidden fruit.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Many Christians don't. But you avoided explaining how you heard about literal interpretations of the Bible versus the more reasoned and modern approach. You don't live alone on an island, do you? You have internet access, so how did you hear about your preferred manner of interpretation?
My parents were not Christians. I was saved over thirty years ago. I did not have a computer, nor internet. I had never been in an evangelical church, except once, before being saved by Christ. I don’t remember what the sermon was about, but not Bible reading methods. On the way out, I said to my husband, “Well, the people were nice and friendly, but I don’t know how anyone can believe in the Trinity!” One week later we were saved, born again at home, like I said alone. Suddenly, the Trinity and the deity of Christ made perfect sense, as well the Bible. Before it had always been confusing and nonsensical. So, no one taught me, except the Holy Spirit, I suppose as the scriptures say is the teacher.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
My parents were not Christians. I was saved over thirty years ago. I did not have a computer, nor internet. I had never been in an evangelical church, except once, before being saved by Christ. I don’t remember what the sermon was about, but not Bible reading methods. On the way out, I said to my husband, “Well, the people were nice and friendly, but I don’t know how anyone can believe in the Trinity!” One week later we were saved, born again at home, like I said alone. Suddenly, the Trinity and the deity of Christ made perfect sense, as well the Bible. Before it had always been confusing and nonsensical. So, no one taught me, except the Holy Spirit, I suppose as the scriptures say is the teacher.
There are missing elements to your testimony.

So if your parents weren't Christian how did you end up going to a Christian church at all? Something influenced your decisions, and then what you believed after going to a church.

No one ever comes to a rational conclusion that their religious beliefs are true, something influences them in their social experiences. I'm curious what these experiences were and why it made an impact in a way that wasn't rational.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You mean to tell me, Jesus, had no evidence to the contrary? Jesus, the only begotten eternal Son of God?
I believe in Jesus, but probably not in the same way you do.

Also, in Judaism, allegory is often treated as if it were factual, and that includes Jesus' parables.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm not suggesting that she "just gets off". But three months in jail for first offense misdemeanor?

First time Drug pushers, robbers, abusers get off much better
New rule: people who try to overthrow democratically-elected governments with violence get one free pass before we punish them.

We can call it a Putsch Mulligan.
 
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