Well... to him who gives mercy receives mercy. Hope you are filling up your life with mercy so that when the line is drawn for you, you have a mercy bank to rely on.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Throw Grandma in Jail and Throw Away the Key?
- Thread starter Kenny
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So why would God supposedly commit genocide by punishing children? Also, why does God supposedly perform abortions [aka miscarriages]?
My point is that I do believe one should take a more realistic look at God as it appears to me that he made all to the level of "good" but not "perfect". If it had been the latter, then we would not have any free will.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sorry, but your "just God" is not just. He is not merciful. He would gvie the death penalty for jaywalking. You are not being consistent in your theology.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
The God of the Bible is neither just nor merciful, let alone pro-life as conservative Christians like to claim. In my opinion, if someone wants to learn about morality, then they should not read the Bible, especially the Old Testament. I fail to see how forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist, ordering the execution of witches, brutally killing the entire populace of other nations for the land in a conquest to take possession of a "promised land," and smashing the heads of infants against the rocks (Psalm 137:9) is upright moral behavior.
The Bible states that the Israelites brutally massacred the Amalekites (killing every man, woman, child, infant, and all their animals) because God commanded them to (1 Samuel 15:3). So much for "Thou shalt not kill." I guess this commandment is one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" kinds of demands. Other examples of the brtual violence in the Bible are included in this article: "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits." And any Christian who has the gall to criticize the Quran for being violent should read this: "God as the original terrorist: 6 ways the Bible condones horrific acts of brutality." I think it's plain to see that the Christian God is neither just or merciful.
Last edited:
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Rats, Someone made a stealth post about me. It was deleted before I could respond. I have no need of a "mercy cup". I have not committed any crime that would require mercy from a just God. If God is just I am safe, in fact I would be much safer than many of the Christians here.
If the God of the Bible turned into a just God no mercy would be needed by anyone.
If the God of the Bible turned into a just God no mercy would be needed by anyone.
I find it interesting how the more conservative a Christian is the more they rely on the Old Testament for rules over humanity, but then deny the character of that God. How can they have it both ways?
To my mind they should leave the OT as the Jewish book, and focus on the NT as their primary source. But even at that much of Paul's opinions are pretty irrational and immoral. Jesus' teachings are basic and moral, and the rest of the NT should be left for monks and priests only. Conservative Christianity has only prepared believers to be more irrational and creative in how they justify beliefs, from being opposed to evolution and climate change, to belief that Trump is a good man who is being targeted by the "swamp" and "deep state".
As frightening as it is to observe the MAGAs contribute in these forums it is also a fascinating look into this shadow world that these people likely keep to themselves otherwise. I'm not sure if any of my friends and acquaintances are MAGAs but there are a few that would not surprise me, as they seem to have certain attitudes and beliefs that reveal a mean spirit that is built on a set of political lies.
Jan 6 did not teach the errors of MAGA thought, and my guess is many of these people are destined to cause more trouble for America and themselves ultimately. They seem to hoe for a lawless state that allows them an exception while targeting their political opponents. The search warrant thread reveals this "wish". Very dangerous people.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
And that sounds loving and moral to you?
I am constantly astonished at the lengths religious folks will go to defend the most heinous of actions as moral and good just because some God supposedly carried them out and well, everything this God does is good, except for the bad things, which he isn't really responsible for, even though he is. . I mean, now we're talking about how it was good of God to murder a bunch of babies because their parents were bad people. Amazing.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
So it's not tragic then. Because they get to be "enveloped in His love and joy forever."
Also, that's a claim, not in evidence. And wishful thinking.
As far as we're all aware, this is the only life we know we get for sure.
Just curious after reading this, are you pro-choice, when it comes to reproductive/abortion issues? It sounds like you should be.
I feel sorry for many of these Christians who adopt a book and theology that is absurd and irrational. They are trapped. What else can they do but work very hard to manage the damage? We see believers fall back on the old notion of "God works in mysterious ways" which is an excuse to believe is poor reasoned beliefs. That is the dark area of belief where anything goes, and nothing needs to make sense. How is that soothing truth? If anything it creates more anxiety because this is a God that will kill your baby at any time without notice or reason.
I keep going back to the day where I met clients whose 3 year old daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia. And I looked at this little girl and could see no moral reason for a God to impose this death sentence on her. She did nothing. Her parents did nothing. But she was born a human and the lottery of life and death via God's wrath was issued.
Let that be a warning to any human that your number might be up at any time for no reason other than God's lottery selected you for sickness and even death.
InChrist
Free4ever
I never said God crested humans to be perfect, rather referenced the scriptures where He stated His creation was very “ good” . I also pointed out in a previous post that no being created by God can be perfect due to the simple fact that God alone is perfect. Any created beings are less than God, therefore, not perfect.
So I suppose we are in agreement on this point.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, we are in agreement, but when you write "God alone is perfect" it begs the question what is "perfect" and how do we, "imperfect beings", know how to define "perfection" and what qualifies as perfection? Thus, I take position of "Whatever is, is".
IOW, Truth is seeing things as they are without attachments, which is often a very tough job for us to do.
Yet using good judgment doesn't require perfection, just the cognitive skill to have and use it. A&E had no such skill, so were easily manipulated and tempted. If God did not want them tempted then God failed to create them able to resist temptation. That places the error on God's desk, not the beings incapable of good judgment.
Had God not created Satan, or not allowed Satan in the Garden, it is possible that A&E would have never thought about eating from the tree of knowledge. They only disobeyed AFTER being tempted by Satan. So there is a lot of suspicious actions by God in this story.
InChrist
Free4ever
You do bring up a valid point about satan. I don’t have time to respond, but the link below pretty much expresses my thoughts...
“Why would God create Satan know all the evil that would come from him?Now God did not create Satan to be an evil being.That was Satan’s choice.So that tells us—we’ve talked about it in the past, but it’s worth talking about again.That tells us something about evil.It wasn’t that Satan was raised in a dysfunctional family, it wasn’t that he was abused as a child, all excuses that are given today, he knew nothing but the presence of God.He grew up in perfection, but in his heart is what Isaiah 14 says: “In your heart you are lifted up with pride and you said I will be like the most high.”So sin began in the very presence of God.That’s astonishing!It tells us something about evil.And knowing that Satan would do this, because God knows everything in advanced, why then would he create this, the most beautiful, powerful, wisest, brilliant being.Why would God create him knowing that he would do this?Well, I think for a number of reasons.First of all, it shows God’s willingness to give him a genuine choice.Secondly, Satan does play an important role.I think I used the illustration in the book of a king who wants to marry this beautiful woman and he wants her to be his bride, the most beautiful woman in his kingdom, but he’s afraid that maybe she won’t love him, so in order to win his heart, he banishes from his kingdom anybody who might possibly be a rival.Well then how can he be really sure that he’s won her heart?He has coerced her.
Tom:
Or set conditions that are overwhelmingly in his favor.[That’s] not honest.
Dave:
So God is not doing that and I often say to people: “Look if Satan has a better deal for you than God, follow him.Go ahead.So Satan I think presents the ultimate alternative to God.In fact, he’s called the god of this world.He tries to entice men and women with everything.”
Why Would God Create Satan?
Have a good day.
This is a terrible argument. It keeps ignoring that GOD IS IN CHARGE. The whole claim of Christians is that God is THE authority and THE truth. Why would a God create an alternative path that is toxic, and then leave it up to people to figure out which they want? It's like a teacher telling students "Here are vitamins or meth, take your pick." No responsible teacher would do that to kids. The teacher looks out for the best interest of students and provides them the best. Your argument above not only offers the children bad options, but also created the bad options.
No decent human would do what you claim your God does.
The solution to the dilemmas presented in the many Genesis stories is to NOT interpret them literally. If you interpret them symbolically you offer yourself a lot of flexibility to what your God is. To interpret Genesis literally traps your God to the evil the stories describe, and you are stuck with that God.
InChrist
Free4ever
If God created Adam and Eve as immature, ignorant children, maybe you’d have a point. But I don’t think that’s the case. Adam and Eve were not stupid or uninformed, they were intelligent, mature adults and God gave they stewardship and authority over everything on earth. So, from my perspective your analogy with the teacher, kids, vitamins and meth is in no way applicable.
You don’t have to believe Genesis or that God is good, it’s your decision. I do though. I believe the scriptures are to be taken literally when the plain reading of them and context implies they should be and taken symbolically when the symbolism is obvious. As well, scripture often interprets scripture and brings clarification.
Have a good night.
This is essentially what I have been pointing out. They lacked the wisdom and knowledge to make good judgments, like children. The tree of knowledge was THE thing the did not have when put into a situation where they needed wisdom, maturity, and knowledge. They lacked the very things that they needed to resist that temptation by Satan, and God was why Satan was there.
Sorry, but the Genesis story is clear that the tree of knowledge was forbidden. So without knowledge how were they informed? How could they use intelligence? They may have been physically mature, but that is irrelevant.
And nothing you say here offsets that God created bad options, a bad actor like Satan, and allowed Satan to tempt them. No teacher would allow that. God is on control. God is the authority. Everything that hens under God's control is on God. If a teacher creates meth, finds drug dealers, and allows students to decide to use math, it would be unethical and criminal. Your God created evil and let it operate in the Garden to people unprepared for temptation. And God was surprised? God didn't foresee their fall? That's on God too.
Thank you for permission.
Only if you ignore the fatal problems these stories provide. You are an example of how many Christians don't learn from the story.
Even the Jews don't interpret it literally, and it's their book. Who told you to interpret it literally, and why did you decide to trust them? Can you understand it might be poor judgment to trust these people just as it was poor judgment to trust the serpent? Yet you don't apply the wisdom. You don't see who Satan is in your own experience.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Then by your standards you should take the Adam and Eve myth as allegory or symbolism. However you want to phrase it. We know that life as we see it today is the product of evolution. We know that there never was a Flood of Noah. We knot that there was no Tower of Babel. If you take the myths of Genesis literally God has to be a liar.
Also Adam and Eve were far more innocent than you seem to give them credit for. It was not until after they ate from the tree that they realized that thy screwed up. God set them up to fail if one reads the story literally.
InChrist
Free4ever
You are leaving something out; you are saying, “the tree of knowledge”, but the text says, “the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL”. There’s a big difference. Adam and Eve were not lacking knowledge. What they did lack was an experiential knowledge of good and evil, because as the scriptures say they were innocent, pure; innocent of evil.
Jews like Paul, Luke, Jesus, Peter, and John refer to the people and events of Genesis as REAL history. All the first Christians of the early church were Jews who believed the historical accuracy of the OT. No one told me to literally believe the scriptures. The day I was saved by Christ I knew the Biblical scriptures were true, and reading them from then on became understandable. I wasn’t saved in a church, but at home with only my husband who was also saved that same day. If anyone taught us; it was Jesus.
InChrist
Free4ever
No, humans lie, humans deny God’s words. God is always true.
For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar....
Romans 3:3-4
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sorry, but it is not humans that tell us that the Bible is not literally true. It is the Earth itself. you are trying to have it both ways again and that does not work. If God made the Earth then there either was no Flood of Noah or God is a liar. It is your choice. His creation tells us that there was no flood.
Perhaps you should try to learn the difference between knowledge and mere belief. All you have is mere belief. You do not know, no matter how hard that you believe. Knowledge is demonstrable and you cannot demonstrate any of your beliefs to be correct.
That is why most Christians do not believe the myths of Genesis. Most Christians cannot bring themselves to believe in a lying God.