What is the Jewish Understanding of Exodus 6:3, YHWH, G-d, and Hashem?

YoursTrue · Jul 29, 2022

Ehav4Ever said:
The statement you made is not found anywhere in the Torah. In fact, the word (שם) doesn't mean "name" as you are claiming. I.e. the word in ancient Hebrew doesn't mean a "pronuciation." Thus, there is no mitzvah, for Torath Mosheh Jews, to attempt to pronounce Hashem's name in the way you are talking about.

Please excuse my frankness but let's be very clear that no one is telling you, personally, to do anything. You are not a part of the Torath Mosheh Jewish community. You are a JW. Thus, you can do as you please in this area.

Please again excuse my frankness but last I remember by your own admission you don't know the Hebrew language.

Again, I hate to be frank again but your statement here is one of the less cognizant ones I have seen in a while. You know, you can always just accept the religion you have to come to and just think that we Torath Mosheh Jews have no idea at all what we are talking about. That could just make things easier for you.

Looking over ==
The Name of God is obviously important to HIM and those who realize what the Bible is saying. Since it is the name written most in the Bible, and was obviously spoken aloud by those reading until the injunction to say lord (adonai) instead of Yahweh. The injunction not to take His name in vain is definite assurance that He wants His name spoken.

Ehav4Ever · Jul 30, 2022

YoursTrue said:
Looking over ==
The Name of God is obviously important to HIM and those who realize what the Bible is saying. Since it is the name written most in the Bible, and was obviously spoken aloud by those reading until the injunction to say lord (adonai) instead of Yahweh. The injunction not to take His name in vain is definite assurance that He wants His name spoken.

That is your personal interpretation of both what your "bible translation" states and also your understanding of what has been explained thus far.

Again, you are free to assume for yourself that you know better than all of us.

Ehav4Ever · Jul 30, 2022

YoursTrue said:
Just so you don't think I do not want to respond to your post, but for me the case is closed, and thank you, you've helped to explain your views the best you can, I doubt I have any more questions and comments about this right now. Thanks, and have a good day.

David Davidovich · Jul 30, 2022

YoursTrue said:
Looking over ==
The Name of God is obviously important to HIM and those who realize what the Bible is saying. Since it is the name written most in the Bible, and was obviously spoken aloud by those reading until the injunction to say lord (adonai) instead of Yahweh. The injunction not to take His name in vain is definite assurance that He wants His name spoken.

Ehav4Ever said:
That is your personal interpretation of both what your "bible translation" states and also your understanding of what has been explained thus far.

Again, you are free to assume for yourself that you know better than all of us.

I will admit that on the surface, @YoursTrue's words highlighted in purple do seem to make sense, however, I've been reading over this thread and I wonder if @YoursTrue has read the entire thread.

For example, what you said in your post #2...

Ehav4Ever said:
Further, Mosheh ben-Amram was given an Oral Torah to explain how to properly understand what was supposed to be derived from the account/information that Hashem gave about (בראשית) "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis. I.e. the Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective is that there are four elements to any reading of the Torah called PaRDeS and the text was constructed for Jews to get certain points out of the text in order to direct Torath Mosheh Jewish life and such.

Also, if you say that Mosheh ben-Amram was given an Oral Torah, then who am I to say that Hashem did not give him an Oral Torah? Also, I had actually seen the word PaRDeS before, however, I just looked it up and I found out that it was supposed to have been first advanced by Moses de León who lived from 1240 CE to 1305 CE. Therefore, I would like to ask: If PaRDeS came about during this late date, then wouldn't that mean that the Jewish perspective of PaRDeS only came about in the 13th century CE?

But getting back to @YoursTrue, running away as she did is typical of Jehovah's Witnesses because rather than staying and asking you pertinent questions concerning this topic, she got what she wanted from this topic, which was to bolster her own beliefs and to prove that your viewpoint was wrong. Also, I think that is what you may have been referring to when you said that you have always felt that they were hiding something.

But another pertinent question that I have about this topic is that in your same post, you said:

Ehav4Ever said:
David Davidovich said: ↑
Also, Exodus 6:3 doesn't make sense to me considering that Eve uses the Tetragrammaton when refering to God at Genesis 4:1(link):

Click to expand...

Again, be aware that you are reading someone's translation w/o a) the actual language it was expressed in and b) w/o the Oral Torah which explains what the words, expressions, and idioms mean. Some of these can only be expressed in Hebrew, because the letters in the Hebrew language also have meanings behind them that can't really expressed in translation w/o HUGE amounts of commentary on every single letter, word, and sentence. Just on this line alone you are asking amount there are loads of information in Hebrew about it going back more than 3,000 years.

Therefore, can you briefly explain to me what is wrong with this Watchtower (i.e. the Jehovah's Witnesses organization) explanation of the meaning of the Tetragrammoton compared to Torath Mosheh's Jews understanding of? Although, in just reading it myself, I'm kind of seeing for the first time that they are admitting that they really don't know what the name means.

What is the meaning of the name Jehovah? In Hebrew, the name Jehovah comes from a verb that means “to become,” and a number of scholars feel that it reflects the causative form of that Hebrew verb. Thus, the understanding of the New World Bible Translation Committee is that God’s name means “He Causes to Become.” Scholars hold varying views, so we cannot be dogmatic about this meaning. However, this definition well fits Jehovah’s role as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose. He not only caused the physical universe and intelligent beings to exist, but as events unfold, he continues to cause his will and purpose to be realized.

Therefore, the meaning of the name Jehovah is not limited to the related verb found at Exodus 3:14, which reads: “I Will Become What I Choose to Become” or, “I Will Prove to Be What I Will Prove to Be.” In the strictest sense, those words do not fully define God’s name. Rather, they reveal an aspect of God’s personality, showing that he becomes what is needed in each circumstance to fulfill his purpose. So while the name Jehovah may include this idea, it is not limited to what he himself chooses to become. It also includes what he causes to happen with regard to his creation and the accomplishment of his purpose.

click here: A4 The Divine Name in the Hebrew Scriptures — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

David Davidovich · Jul 30, 2022

Here's something else that I found from Watchtower:

40. What have some Jewish authorities stated regarding the use of the divine name?

40 Concerning the ancient rabbinic (not Biblical) injunction against pronouncing the name, A. Marmorstein, a rabbi, wrote in his book The Old Rabbinic Doctrine of God: “There was a time when this prohibition [of the use of the divine name] was entirely unknown among the Jews . . . Neither in Egypt, nor in Babylonia, did the Jews know or keep a law prohibiting the use of God’s name, the Tetragrammaton, in ordinary conversation or greetings. Yet, from the third century B.C.E. till the third century A.C.E. such a prohibition existed and was partly observed.” Not only was the use of the name allowed in earlier times but, as Dr. Cohen says: “There was a time when the free and open use of the Name even by the layman was advocated . . . It has been suggested that the recommendation was based on the desire to distinguish the Israelite from the [non-Jew].”

41. According to one rabbi, what influences brought about a prohibition of the use of God’s name?

41 What, then, brought about the prohibition of the use of the divine name? Dr. Marmorstein answers: “Hellenistic [Greek-influenced] opposition to the religion of the Jews, the apostasy of the priests and nobles, introduced and established the rule not to pronounce the Tetragrammaton in the Sanctuary [temple in Jerusalem].” In their excessive zeal to avoid taking the divine name in vain, they completely suppressed its use in speech and subverted and diluted the identification of the true God. Under the combined pressure of religious opposition and apostasy, the divine name fell into disuse among the Jews.

click here: Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

Therefore, would anyone of the Jewish culture or any Torath Mosheh Jews like to comment on these allegations?

YoursTrue · Jul 30, 2022

Ehav4Ever said:
That is your personal interpretation of both what your "bible translation" states and also your understanding of what has been explained thus far.

Again, you are free to assume for yourself that you know better than all of us.

It's really just common sense.

YoursTrue · Jul 30, 2022

Ehav4Ever said:
That is your personal interpretation of both what your "bible translation" states and also your understanding of what has been explained thus far.

Again, you are free to assume for yourself that you know better than all of us.

Either the tetragrammaton YHWH is written more often in the scriptures than any other name or it is not. Not a matter of personal interpretation.

Ehav4Ever · Jul 31, 2022

YoursTrue said:
It's really just common sense.

Of course, all of us are missing that I guess. It is good that you are here to remind us what is common and what has sense.

Ehav4Ever · Jul 31, 2022

YoursTrue said:
Either the tetragrammaton YHWH is written more often in the scriptures than any other name or it is not. Not a matter of personal interpretation.

Again, you know Hebrew better than us so your view is the way that all JW's should hold by. ;

Ehav4Ever · Jul 31, 2022

David Davidovich said:
Therefore, would anyone of the Jewish culture or any Torath Mosheh Jews like to comment on these allegations?

Yeah sure. Get a copy of Rabbi Aurthor Marmorstein's book and read everything he wrote in it, and not just the snippet that the JW's chose to highlight. Also, read information from rabbis who proceeded him such Rav Saadyah Gaon, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki (Rashi), Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon (Rambam), Rabbi Mosheh ben-Nachman (Ramban), Rabbi Ibn Ezra. and then see what the consesus is.

Ehav4Ever · Jul 31, 2022

David Davidovich said:
I will admit that on the surface, @YoursTrue's words highlighted in purple do seem to make sense,

One way to test whether she is right or not is to pull out a Hebrew text from the Tanakh, which she can't google search, and see if she can read it, explain it, and show historically (from valid sources) that her interpretation matches ancient views on it. For example, the below is posted in a way where someone can't easily google search it. I.e. either they can read it and explain it or they can't. Also, because it lacks the vowels and punctiation someone who knows a few words here and there may be challenged to know when to pause, when to stop, or even how to pronounce what is written below.

If she can reasonable do that, then good job for her. If she can't, you may have to ask why she can't and how what she says can be trusted to be the reality.

David Davidovich said:
however, I've been reading over this thread and I wonder if @YoursTrue has read the entire thread.
For example, what you said in your post #2...

It is possible that she may not have read it, BUT it is possible that she doesn't care either way and she is trying to make a point from her JW background.

David Davidovich · Jul 31, 2022

Ehav4Ever said:
Of course, all of us are missing that I guess. It is good that you are here to remind us what is common and what has sense.

But, @Ehav4Ever, the regular Jehovah's Witnesses get all their information from a group of 7 or 8 men called the governing body aka the faithful and discreet slave who claim to be anointed with holy spirit and who will go to heaven (most JWs aren't, but only a few of them are) who live at Watchtower headquarters in Warwick, New York. Therefore, everything that they learn comes from these 7 or 8 men, therefore, the rank-and-file Jehovah's Witnesses know what they are talking about!

WHO IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?

8. Why does it make sense that the faithful slave be made up of anointed Christians?

8 The faithful slave must be made up of anointed Christians on earth. They are called “a royal priesthood” and have been appointed to preach to others about the wonderful things God has done. (1 Peter 2:9) It makes sense that members of that “royal priesthood” would be the ones teaching the truth to their brothers.—Malachi 2:7; Revelation 12:17.

9. Do all anointed Christians make up the faithful slave? Explain.

9 Do all anointed ones on earth make up the faithful slave? No. Not all anointed ones give out spiritual food to their brothers around the world. It is true that some of the anointed are ministerial servants or elders in the congregation. They teach from house to house and in their congregation, and they loyally support the direction from headquarters. But they do not actually give out spiritual food to their brothers around the world. There are also humble sisters among the anointed, who would never try to become teachers in the congregation.—1 Corinthians 11:3; 14:34.

10. Who is the faithful and discreet slave?

10 Who, then, is the faithful and discreet slave? That slave is made up of a small group of anointed brothers who directly prepare and give out spiritual food during Christ’s presence. This is similar to how Jesus fed many through the hands of a few in the first century. Throughout the last days, the anointed brothers who make up the faithful slave have served at headquarters. In recent years, that slave has been the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Note, though, that in his illustration, Jesus said that there would be one “slave.” So the members of the Governing Body make their decisions as a group.

click here: “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

Ehav4Ever · Jul 31, 2022

David Davidovich said:
Also, if you say that Mosheh ben-Amram was given an Oral Torah, then who am I to say that Hashem did not give him an Oral Torah? Also, I had actually seen the word PaRDeS before, however, I just looked it up and I found out that it was supposed to have been first advanced by Moses de León who lived from 1240 CE to 1305 CE. Therefore, I would like to ask: If PaRDeS came about during this late date, then wouldn't that mean that the Jewish perspective of PaRDeS only came about in the 13th century CE?

The problem that you face is that you may be seeking information from unreliable people and because you don't have the language you may not notice things that will easily show that what someone gave you is incorrect.

For example, the below is from the Babylonian Talmud. The highlighted word is (פרדס) PaRDeS. So, if Moses de Leon created it, or advanced it during his generation, how is it that in Talmud's around the world that predate him have it mentioned in them? Also,

Further, Karaites, who don't go by Rabbanic writings, have a similar system called (סבל הירושה) Sevel Hayerusha and (היקש) Heqesh. Why do they have something similar if they don't go by the rabbis, the Talmud, the Mishnah, etc.? Lastly, the Samaritans have something similar and they also don't go by the rabbis, the Talmud, the Mishnah, the Karaites, etc?

Ehav4Ever · Jul 31, 2022

David Davidovich said:
But, @Ehav4Ever, the regular Jehovah's Witnesses get all their information from a group of 7 or 8 men called the governing body aka the faithful and discreet slave who claim to be anointed with holy spirit and who will go to heaven (most JWs aren't, but only a few of them are) who live at Watchtower headquarters in Warwick, New York. Therefore, everything that they learn comes from these 7 or 8 men, therefore, the rank-and-file Jehovah's Witnesses know what they are talking about.

You go me there. 7 or 8 is a nice small number and we all know that wisdom of the Torah comes out of only Warwick, NY.

Then they must be right.

Ehav4Ever · Jul 31, 2022

David Davidovich said:
Therefore, can you briefly explain to me what is wrong with this Watchtower (i.e. the Jehovah's Witnesses organization) explanation of the meaning of the Tetragrammoton compared to Torath Mosheh's Jews understanding of?

Do I really have to?

Simply put. You answered that question already when you described their structure. Again, all one has to do is present any one of them with a Hebrew text that they can't easily google. I.e. they can read it or they can't. If the majority of them can't read it, if the majority of them don't come from families who have passed on the Hebrew language for thousands of years, etc. then how is what they are saying reliable? I don't think it can be more simple than that.

Ehav4Ever · Jul 31, 2022

David Davidovich said:
But getting back to @YoursTrue, running away as she did is typical of Jehovah's Witnesses because rather than staying and asking you pertinent questions concerning this topic, she got what she wanted from this topic, which was to bolster her own beliefs and to prove that your viewpoint was wrong. Also, I think that is what you may have been referring to when you said that you have always felt that they were hiding something.

Yes, she has been doing that quite a bit.

It is one of the reasons I keep a log of discussions I have been in. She also once explained to me her background so I think there is something there that she may be trying to prove to herself. It is one of those things that make me ignore her more and more and I am sure I am not the only one on this forum. So, I am not sure if that is her goal or if it is just a personal reaction to something.

YoursTrue · Jul 31, 2022

Ehav4Ever said:
Again, you know Hebrew better than us so your view is the way that all JW's should hold by. ;

So it looks like you're saying that YHWH or the Hebrew 4 letter name of God is NOT in the Tanach thousands of times...?

YoursTrue · Jul 31, 2022

Ehav4Ever said:
The problem that you face is that you may be seeking information from unreliable people and because you don't have the language you may not notice things that will easily show that what someone gave you is incorrect.

For example, the below is from the Babylonian Talmud. The highlighted word is (פרדס) PaRDeS. So, if Moses de Leon created it, or advanced it during his generation, how is it that in Talmud's around the world that predate him have it mentioned in them? Also,
View attachment 65003

Further, Karaites, who don't go by Rabbanic writings, have a similar system called (סבל הירושה) Sevel Hayerusha and (היקש) Heqesh. Why do they have something similar if they don't go by the rabbis, the Talmud, the Mishnah, etc.? Lastly, the Samaritans have something similar and they also don't go by the rabbis, the Talmud, the Mishnah, the Karaites, etc?

Just wondering how you feel or think about Maimonides and if the men in your sect say the Articles of Faith every day.

YoursTrue · Jul 31, 2022

Ehav4Ever said:
One way to test whether she is right or not is to pull out a Hebrew text from the Tanakh, which she can't google search, and see if she can read it, explain it, and show historically (from valid sources) that her interpretation matches ancient views on it. For example, the below is posted in a way where someone can't easily google search it. I.e. either they can read it and explain it or they can't. Also, because it lacks the vowels and punctiation someone who knows a few words here and there may be challenged to know when to pause, when to stop, or even how to pronounce what is written below.

View attachment 65002

If she can reasonable do that, then good job for her. If she can't, you may have to ask why she can't and how what she says can be trusted to be the reality.

It is possible that she may not have read it, BUT it is possible that she doesn't care either way and she is trying to make a point from her JW background.

I can't read much in Hebrew, but I do know that the tetragrammaton (the 4 Hebrew letters signifying God's name) is there in the scriptures more than ANY OTHER NAME. I can read the tetragrammaton said by some as YAHWEH or Yahveh or something that sounds like that, and I know the Tetragrammaton is not the Hebrew letters for LORD or GOD. Two different Hebrew words. If you have a problem with that, it's ok. I understand.

YoursTrue · Jul 31, 2022

Ehav4Ever said:
One way to test whether she is right or not is to pull out a Hebrew text from the Tanakh, which she can't google search, and see if she can read it, explain it, and show historically (from valid sources) that her interpretation matches ancient views on it. For example, the below is posted in a way where someone can't easily google search it. I.e. either they can read it and explain it or they can't. Also, because it lacks the vowels and punctiation someone who knows a few words here and there may be challenged to know when to pause, when to stop, or even how to pronounce what is written below.

View attachment 65002

If she can reasonable do that, then good job for her. If she can't, you may have to ask why she can't and how what she says can be trusted to be the reality.

It is possible that she may not have read it, BUT it is possible that she doesn't care either way and she is trying to make a point from her JW background.

While I can read some Hebrew, and you're considering me to learn more, here is what Wikipedia says about the tetragrammaton in part:
"According to the Jewish Encyclopedia it occurs 5,410 times in the Hebrew scriptures.[51] In the Hebrew Bible, the Tetragrammaton occurs 6828 times"
Tetragrammaton - Wikipedia

What is the Jewish Understanding of Exodus 6:3, YHWH, G-d, and Hashem?

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)