BuT WhAT AbOUt ThE WiTcH HuNtS!!!!!!!!!!Secular humanism, Western liberalism, abolitionism, human rights, mass literacy, the university system, facilitation of the rise of modern science...
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What have (some) religions ever done for us?
- Thread starter Mock Turtle
- Start date
Augustus
…
Bruno was in no way a scientist so is pretty much irrelevant, and the majority of scientists agreed with the church at the time of Galileo, who could have continued to promote his ideas on heliocentrism as long as he framed it as a hypothesis (which it was at that time) rather than a proven fact (which it was not).
But you facilitate the rise of modern science by being the largest funder of scientific activities, the biggest preserver, translator and spreader of scientific texts, the biggest provider of education to non-elites, etc.
Not to mention that experimental science was widely perceived as useless ivory tower intellectualism at first but gained funding and legitimacy due to its perceived theological value.
Who knew? Anybody who bothers to read actual scholarship rather than uncritically accept pop-culture myths as fact
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Of course, by the time the Pope had his kerfuffle with Galilei, the early modern monarchies of Europe had already started to replace the Catholic Church in that function to a significant degree.
cuius regio, eius scholae, so to speak.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Anarchism, communism, public healthcare, evolutionary genetics, climate science, feminism...Secular humanism, Western liberalism, abolitionism, human rights, mass literacy, the university system, facilitation of the rise of modern science...
Imo the only thing that religion ever did for us was inspire art,the Lindisfarne chronicles,the al hambra mosque,the Egyptian hieroglyphs,Viking metal working,there’s too many to list really.
The downside is a lot of people were killed and persecuted along the way especially by the proselytising religions,it’s not an easy task to find enough positives to make a case for it,IMO of course.
The downside is a lot of people were killed and persecuted along the way especially by the proselytising religions,it’s not an easy task to find enough positives to make a case for it,IMO of course.
I recently watched the BBC series, Tudor Monastery Farm, which included segments on the role of the Catholic Monastery in the lives of farmers at that time.
Those who hate religion, especially Christianity and Islam, focus on the negative and see religion using the lens of the 21st century. A more accurate view looks at both the positive and negative aspect of religion in the past and the present.
I know of many dedicated Christians who take it as their duty as Christians to care for the suffering, act with love as best they are able and care for the Earth. So even today, the positive and the negative are in evidence.
Those who hate religion, especially Christianity and Islam, focus on the negative and see religion using the lens of the 21st century. A more accurate view looks at both the positive and negative aspect of religion in the past and the present.
I know of many dedicated Christians who take it as their duty as Christians to care for the suffering, act with love as best they are able and care for the Earth. So even today, the positive and the negative are in evidence.
For his time, his thinking was often scientific. Certainly he was a mathematician, and a cosmological theorist attempting to continue the work of Copernicus -- going so far as to propose that the stars were distant suns with planets of their own, some of which might harbour life. Pretty good for prior to 1600. In fact, though he certainly didn't discover as much, I think he was not unlike Newton, who also had some pretty "non-scientific" beliefs.
That is not quite accurate, you know. The Church considered Galileo's idea that the earth moved (that in itself was problematic) around the sun to be heresy. And heresy, as you know, is nothing worse than arguing against "orthodoxy" (or "correct belief").
And now you are talking about universities, and yes, it is true that various churches contributed funds to those, but so did governments.But you facilitate the rise of modern science by being the largest funder of scientific activities, the biggest preserver, translator and spreader of scientific texts, the biggest provider of education to non-elites, etc.
Not to mention that experimental science was widely perceived as useless ivory tower intellectualism at first but gained funding and legitimacy due to its perceived theological value.
Who knew? Anybody who bothers to read actual scholarship rather than uncritically accept pop-culture myths as fact
And I would not like you to forget that those same churches generally insisted that a very large proportion (and for a long time in the 16th/17th centuries, the majority) of what was taught was again -- orthodoxy.
Augustus
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Still outnumbered. You can do better than this.
Being the greatest unifying force in human history, preventing countless wars, providing massive amounts of charity, promoting the idea that charity is a virtue, motivating people to create great music, art, literature, architecture, aiding the intergenerational transmission of knowledge and experience, providing community, solace and hope, promoting equality and egalitarianism, providing opposition to tyranny, creating social reform, etc., etc.
Given religions have been the single biggest influence on human socio-cultural development they have impacted almost everything to some degree.
The good and the bad of religion is basically the good and bad of human nature.
Augustus
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He was basically a mystic and can't be compared to people like Copernicus who actually were trying to use maths and empirical observations to underpin their theories. Bruno just said "I think this..."
Saying he was 'continuing the work of Copernicus' is like saying my own personal musing on space-time would be 'continuing the work of Einstein'.
(note that Copernicus' text on heliocentrism was published by a Bishop and dedicated to the Pope suggesting it wasn't quite the problem you think it was)
He was told (under censure) he could teach it as a hypothesis, but not as a fact.
He then taught it as fact and called the Pope a simpleton.
17th C power-holders, religious or secular, didn't really take too kindly to people breaking their agreements and publicly mocking them.
The main reason Galileo was punished was because he was a bit of **** who overplayed his hand.
With a bit more tact he would have been fine.
Not really.
Theology was a post-graduate degree in an age where most people didn't even graduate.
Before you got taught 'orthodoxy' you got taught classical and natural philosophy (science) and all kinds of other secular learning.
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Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Yup.
If it is actually true about Secular Humanism being derived or borrowing from religions I'm sure the believers in the former will be rather grateful to any of the latter as to providing a means for their (religions) demise. But perhaps it isn't so because even Christianity is partially based on an earlier, and possibly non-religious belief, that of the Golden Rule, and from where many things have emanated - like Western Liberalism perhaps and human rights. Most religions and ideologies share a common thread, and particular with regards morality, even if many do have their differences, and many would argue that such is more innate in humans and stemming from their evolution. Not sure that religions can claim to be the educators either, given that it took them so long to achieve much. The latter, as to science, I would argue that this would have occurred with or without religions, given that knowledge tends to build on itself, and hence tends to have a life of its own, even if we might quibble as to religions advancing or slowing any such progress.Secular humanism, Western liberalism, abolitionism, human rights, mass literacy, the university system, facilitation of the rise of modern science...
Still outnumbered. You can do better than this.
PS I should know better than to post in haste before logging off.
Well I tend to agree with much of this and religions have been one of the easier means to control people - whether for their own good or not.
PureX
Veteran Member
For a lot of people, "pleasing God" is about gaining divine assistance: seeking control by controlling that which controls what we cannot. And religions are happy to sell this illusion of control, and use it to control us, even as they are preaching that God is controlling it all.
This fear of not being in control of our own destiny drives us to obsess about gaining control of it, even if only delusionally. And that drives us to behave like crazy people.
Just so but I was thinking more of the wealthy and powerful gaining by their use of religion in controlling the masses.
So, a bit of a conundrum, as to their negative as well as positive effects, and like most things that humans tend to invent or discover?
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Not to be taken too seriously - so more a bun fight than last man standing.
Well, they gave us - yet another basis for arrogance and for possibly despising others; appeal to emotion rather than to reason; unhelpful things like sin and evil; religious divisions and subsequent conflicts; the concept of 'Chosen People'; circumcision; FGM - possibly; the Inquisition; burning witches; the burqa and the niqab; religiously inspired terrorists; Holy Wars; confession; idolatry - even when not recognised as such; blasphemy; apostasy; exorcism; ex-communication; heretics; karma; religious guilt-tripping; numerous gods - so on the good side, lots of choice
OK, we could quibble over some.
PS And this thread is especially for those who rant on about religions not being the major cause of wars.
Any religion that values dogma over people, animals and the environment has the propensity to do damage.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Torture, greed, vanity, ethnic and cultural supremacism, persecution, oppression, terrorism...