Judaism vs Christianity: Second Coming of Messiah

Rival said:

Why?

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Personally I see it is all about our heart and what we get attached to, beleive me there is no I'll intent offered in these thoughts, as every one of us has to find the change within ourselves.

Over time the outer forms of the Faith take priority over the spiritual bond we all have. The Message of Abraham, Moses and the Prophets of the Jews all had the potential to embrace all humanity, but then there is mankind, their Nature, Nurture, choices they face and then the smallness of the world they lived in compared to the last 200 years.

I personally can be One with the Jews in their practice of faith, it is that eternal bond of Love and Virtues that bring us together. The outer forms of religion the laws and observances are suited for a time and a place and I always like to consider that G_d did not leave India or China without guidance, yet their given Laws and Observances are different.

The promise is that the Later day Messiah will bring to us the Knowledge of the One God and that the Name will then become One. This promise is found in other scriptures and ancient traditions.

The Jews originally lost the Holy land due to the rejection of other Messengers. I consider they never really had to leave the land or their Faith, they just had to let go of the Old Law and embrace the New. I also see 3 Faiths have shared the Holy Land since Judaism and they are also now have a eternal bond to that Land.

I do wonder what it will take for us to become One people under One God. I have spent 2 x 9 day Pilgrimages in Haifa, praying for that outcome, all the while watching many of the Jewish Faith embrace with Love and Tolerance a New Name that sits upon Mount Carmel. We as Baha'i are already bonded and share the Holy land with the blessings of the Jew, as do the Christians and the Muslims.

I see the rest of the world has now also embraced Israel, as I have witnessed all people of all Faiths come and worship One God on Mount Carmel, and many take the wider pilgrimage.

Thank you for asking and if course I must add IMHO.

Regards Tony

Kk4mds said:

Most rabbis agree about what prophecies are messianic. There are a few that are points of contention. A couple that are accepted by all include that all people will know Hashem and acknowledge Him as the one true god and there will be world wide peace. Therefore, neither the Jews nor anyone would reject him. An innocent person dying for another’s sins is anathema to Judaism as is human sacrifice.

I’m not trying to convince anyone that the messiah has not come. All I am doing is pointing out some the problem the Judaism has with the concept of a second coming.

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Jesus was not really sacrificed, he was killed however and God made it into a sacrifice for sin.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
This passage is about that sacrifice and also shows that He will be resurrected, and the passage below speaks of His rejection by most Jews.
Psalm 89: 38 But you have rejected, you have spurned,
you have been very angry with your anointed one.
39 You have renounced the covenant with your servant
and have defiled his crown in the dust.
This was done so that the Word/Law could go out from Jerusalem/Zion and so that He could be a light and salvation for the Gentiles.
Isa 49:6 “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
Isa 2: 3And many peoples will come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4Then He will judge between the nations and arbitrate for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
And that last verse (Isa 2:4) shows us when He will come back and judge the nations and bring peace to the world. At the moment He is the Prince of Peace (Isa 9:6) because He brings peace between God and man and then He will bring peace to the whole of creation.
But yes I know that Judaism has a problem with the concept of the second coming, but Judaism has a problem with the concept of Jesus and His resurrection and the whole New Covenant.

Thanks Tony that was a pretty thorough post.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It was on Mount Carmel, not far from the Cave of Elijah. The German Templers also predicted the return and built their homes at the base of Mount Carmel, they are preserved on both sides of Ben Gurion Avenue, they had the one they awaited actually visit them. Above one of the doors is ensribed The Lord is Nigh.

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The New Jerusalem and all the nations flow up the Mountain of the Lord.

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Zech 14:3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south.

It is as the angel said after Jesus ascended (Acts 1:11). He will return as the disciples saw Him ascend,,,,,,,,,,,,and that was from the Mt of Olives, east of Jerusalem, the direction He will come from to go to Jerusalem/Zion, the place that is the Mountain of the Lord according to the Bible.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

There was indeed many happenings, all the Kings and Rulers and the Priests, the Pope's, the peoples of the world were notified. All it needs is our heart to look.
That is all IMHO.
Regards Tony

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If the kings and rulers and priests and popes etc had to be notified it was not the return of the Lord.
Matt 24:26 So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Unfortunately this passage identifies Baha'u'llah as a false Christ, so we still await the real one, and then there will be no need for notifications to be sent out to say, "He has arrived and He is in the desert in a prison room". We are warned specifically about such messages and are told not to go.

Brian2 said:

Baha'u'llah as a false Christ, so we still await the real one, and then there will be no need for notifications to be sent out to say, "He has arrived and He is in the desert in a prison room". We are warned specifically about such messages and are told not to go.

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That is your choice Brian2.

We were warned of many things, but we were also warned not to be caught like a thief in the night.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah can be shown to have fulfilled Biblical Prophecy, but many only look to the Material aspect and that is why the Jew still reject Jesus and have not yet fully considered the Latter day Messiah.

The issue of rejection without a just search, as the Bible tells us to do, is our own downfall and I see if the Love of Christ was first in our heart, we would look for that Love from wherever it blooms.

Some thoughts as to why the Latter day Messiah was missed, basically not many looked for the Spirit, they await for flesh.

1 John 4:1-6

Test the Spirits
4 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

So are we looking for the Spirit, or do we await a Magic show put on by God, a show that no other Messenger has brought us, but to those that overcame and were born again.... In the Spirit.

IMHO

Regards Tony

Brian2 said:

Baha'u'llah as a false Christ, so we still await the real one, and then there will be no need for notifications to be sent out to say, "He has arrived and He is in the desert in a prison room". We are warned specifically about such messages and are told not to go

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This is a link to a series of Talks by William Sears on this topic.


They will be worth listening to IMHO

Regards Tony

gnostic said:

In Christian doctrine, Jesus was the messiah, and he died and supposedly was resurrected, and according to Christian lore, Jesus will come back again, hence the Second Coming.

Do Judaism support the idea of the Second Coming too in their messianic prophecies?

Or is simply Second Coming merely Christian thing?

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The big picture is, does salvation matters?

If salvation doesn't matter, no religion is important to humans. So for the sake of argument let's assume that salvation is true. God to humans is thus not something optional as He becomes the only solution of the fate of all mankind!
Again if this is not the case then no religion is crucial. It's all up to human individual to choose religion or no religion.

However in contrary if salvation matters then we have to ask which religion saves! Does Judaism save? At best it saves only the Jews and converts. This represents the less than 20 mil vs the 8 billion humans on earth. In contrary Christianity can save up to 1/3 as it extends to the so-called gentiles. Your bet is thus, God plans to save only the Jews such that religion becomes another dummy for you, as whether you choose a religion or not you have no hope to be saved as a gentile. Judaism has nothing to do with you. In reality and along human history in the past 2000 years the number of humans circumcised and converted to Judaism are neglectable. Or God chooses to provide salvation to gentiles as well, of course, through Christianity.

That said. If Christianity saves then Jesus is the key. Who being the Messiah is subject to God's interpretation. Today's Judaism is called Rabbinic Judaism. Rabbis on the other hand are never legitimate. The line of legitimacy extended from Ezra till the Pharisees (i.e., the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem). This line of legitimacy was destroyed along with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It is more than 200 years later that a group of rabbis coming from no where to revive today's Judaism. While God allows their Temple to be removed from earth such that they can't even abide by Mosaic laws to perform their rites inside the Temple. Basically they lost their contact with God.

As a sign, the oral laws are conveyed through the line of legitimacy. The rabbis had to make them written as it marks the end of the line of legitimacy!!!

Hawkins said:

The big picture is, does salvation matters?

If salvation doesn't matter, no religion is important to humans. So for the sake of argument let's assume that salvation is true. God to humans is thus not something optional as He becomes the only solution of the fate of all mankind!
Again if this is not the case then no religion is crucial. It's all up to human individual to choose religion or no religion.

However in contrary if salvation matters then we have to ask which religion saves! Does Judaism save? At best it saves only the Jews and converts. This represents the less than 20 mil vs the 8 billion humans on earth. In contrary Christianity can save up to 1/3 as it extends to the so-called gentiles. Your bet is thus, God plans to save only the Jews such that religion becomes another dummy for you, as whether you choose a religion or not you have no hope to be saved as a gentile. Judaism has nothing to do with you. In reality and along human history in the past 2000 years the number of humans circumcised and converted to Judaism are neglectable. Or God chooses to provide salvation to gentiles as well, of course, through Christianity.

That said. If Christianity saves then Jesus is the key. Who being the Messiah is subject to God's interpretation. Today's Judaism is called Rabbinic Judaism. Rabbis on the other hand are never legitimate. The line of legitimacy extended from Ezra till the Pharisees (i.e., the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem). This line of legitimacy was destroyed along with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It is more than 200 years later that a group of rabbis coming from no where to revive today's Judaism. While God allows their Temple to be removed from earth such that they can't even abide by Mosaic laws to perform their rites inside the Temple. Basically they lost their contact with God.

As a sign, the oral laws are conveyed through the line of legitimacy. The rabbis had to make them written as it marks the end of the line of legitimacy!!!

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As your notion of "salvation" has no value in Judaism, claiming Judaism doesn't "save" is an empty claim. As to your statement about legitimacy and the rabbinic tradition, those are your faith based claims and are not valid as objective judgments of Judaism as a religion.

rosends said:

As your notion of "salvation" has no value in Judaism, claiming Judaism doesn't "save" is an empty claim. As to your statement about legitimacy and the rabbinic tradition, those are your faith based claims and are not valid as objective judgments of Judaism as a religion.

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You are kinder and gentler than I would have been. As you are no doubt aware this post is just the latest in a series of similar contempt for Judaism filled posts by this member.

gnostic said:

Do Judaism support the idea of the Second Coming too in their messianic prophecies?

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In judaism there is only one messiah, and this one messiah will come one time, and he will fufill all the prophecies, not just some of them. Anyone who does not fulfill ALL the prophecies is ruled out as being the messiah.

IndigoChild5559 said:

In judaism there is only one messiah, and this one messiah will come one time, and he will fufill all the prophecies, not just some of them. Anyone who does not fulfill ALL the prophecies is ruled out as being the messiah.

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That’s what I’m expecting, from the little that I know about Judaism.

IndigoChild5559 said:

In judaism there is only one messiah, and this one messiah will come one time, and he will fufill all the prophecies, not just some of them. Anyone who does not fulfill ALL the prophecies is ruled out as being the messiah.

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And of course you forgot to add that Judaism does not even see the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled as Messianic prophecies

Brian2 said:

And of course you forgot to add that Judaism does not even see the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled as Messianic prophecies

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Nor do we consider them to have been "fulfilled" by Jesus, messianic or not.

Harel13 said:

Nor do we consider them to have been "fulfilled" by Jesus, messianic or not.

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If you thought the resurrection story as true then you would see Jesus as the Messiah and would expand your concept of Messianic prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.
So imo the lie which that generation of Jewish leaders told about the resurrection is responsible for the Jews rejecting Jesus.

Brian2 said:

If you thought the resurrection story as true then you would see Jesus as the Messiah and would expand your concept of Messianic prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.
So imo the lie which that generation of Jewish leaders told about the resurrection is responsible for the Jews rejecting Jesus.

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Or the lie that others told about the resurrection is responsible for the misguided people's accepting Jesus.
Potayto, potahto

Brian2 said:

If you thought the resurrection story as true then you would see Jesus as the Messiah and would expand your concept of Messianic prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.
So imo the lie which that generation of Jewish leaders told about the resurrection is responsible for the Jews rejecting Jesus.

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Hah! That is quite hilarious. Whether or not I think the resurrection story is true is utterly irrelevant. Resurrection a messiah does not make.

Brian2 said:

If you thought the resurrection story as true then you would see Jesus as the Messiah and would expand your concept of Messianic prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.

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Where is the Tanakh passage about a resurrecting messiah a la Jesus?

I don't do Shabbat so I have all day and night and the next day...

Brian2 said:

And of course you forgot to add that Judaism does not even see the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled as Messianic prophecies

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Quite true!!!

rosends said:

Or the lie that others told about the resurrection is responsible for the misguided people's accepting Jesus.
Potayto, potahto

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Yes you can look at it in that way also, but it is not potayto, potahto because they are opposites.
There of course were many witnesses for the resurrected Jesus. In the law that would be accepted,,,,,,,,,,,,,if it was a trial.

Harel13 said:

Hah! That is quite hilarious. Whether or not I think the resurrection story is true is utterly irrelevant. Resurrection a messiah does not make.

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Really? If you think that God brought Jesus back to life that would be irrelevant to whom Jesus is?

Rival said:

Where is the Tanakh passage about a resurrecting messiah a la Jesus?

I don't do Shabbat so I have all day and night and the next day...

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Here is one place.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

This passage shows His death and resurrection and the reason for it. Other places show either one or the other.