Judaism vs Christianity: Second Coming of Messiah

[Sand Dancer]

That sounds like a reference to the Second Coming of Christ.

The second coming is a Christian thing, because since, Jesus died, prophecy didn't get fulfilled, so the story was changed.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Most "Messianic Jews" aren't Jews.

Cultural Jews but religious Christians.

 

[Skywalker]

The Jewish messiah was a king who lived to avenge their enemy. Jesus was not a king and he died.

Jesus is the king spiritually over those who follow Him.

 

[Skywalker]

The second coming is a Christian thing, because since, Jesus died, prophecy didn't get fulfilled, so the story was changed.

The Old Testament talks about the reappearance of the Messiah even though it doesn't use the term second coming.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Jesus is the king spiritually over those who follow Him.

Okay, but the Jewish Messiah was an actual king, not spiritually.

 

[Skywalker]

Okay, but the Jewish Messiah was an actual king, not spiritually.

The idea of Jesus being the King during his second coming is not inconsistent with the Old Testament and it resolves apparently contradictory teachings that sound like there being two Messiahs.

 

[gnostic]

If this is an attempt to imply that because it was something so local to Ahaz that it could therefore not at all have referenced something later, well this proof falls short in that Ahaz himself didn't even see the battle(or siege); he died in the second year of Hezekiah(2Ki 17:1,18:9) and Assyria threatened in his fourth(2Ki 18:9) so he wouldn't have seen the fulfillment of the prophecy given in Isaiah 7:17. Either way it refers to something he didn't see, yet if it should refer to the Messiah(as per 2 Samuel 7) in any prophetic way(because that's in the future) it is rubbish?

I wasn’t talking about Assyria during Hezekiah’s reign.

Isaiah 7:14-17 had to do with Ahaz and the unnamed Assyrian king (Tiglath-pileser in 2 Kings 16:7 & 15:29).

Are you really going to completely ignore Isaiah 7:1-2 & 2 Kings 16:5?

1 In the days of Ahaz son of Jotham son of Uzziah, king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and King Pekah son of Remaliah of Israel went up to attack Jerusalem, but could not mount an attack against it. 2 When the house of David heard that Aram had allied itself with Ephraim, the heart of Ahaz and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind.

This siege is also mentioned in 2 Kings 16:5 -

5 Then King Rezin of Aram and King Pekah son of Remaliah of Israel came up to wage war on Jerusalem; they besieged Ahaz but could not conquer him.

Jerusalem was under siege by Rezin of Damascus and Pekah of Israel, at the time when the signs given in 7:14-17 and Isaiah 8:1-10, particularly 8:3-4.

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. 15 He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on your ancestral house such days as have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah—the king of Assyria.”

...and here in Isaiah 8...

8 Then the Lord said to me, Take a large tablet and write on it in common characters, “Belonging to Maher-shalal-hash-baz,” 2 and have it attested for me by reliable witnesses, the priest Uriah and Zechariah son of Jeberechiah. 3 And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; 4 for before the child knows how to call “My father” or “My mother,” the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away by the king of Assyria.

5 The Lord spoke to me again: 6 Because this people has refused the waters of Shiloah that flow gently, and melt in fear before Rezin and the son of Remaliah; 7 therefore, the Lord is bringing up against it the mighty flood waters of the River, the king of Assyria and all his glory; it will rise above all its channels and overflow all its banks; 8 it will sweep on into Judah as a flood, and, pouring over, it will reach up to the neck; and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.

9 Band together, you peoples, and be dismayed;
listen, all you far countries;
gird yourselves and be dismayed;
gird yourselves and be dismayed!
10 Take counsel together, but it shall be brought to naught;
speak a word, but it will not stand,
for God is with us.

Twice, the signs were given in regarding to Ahaz’s war with Rezin and Pekah, when the two kings had Jerusalem under siege (Isaiah 7:1-2).

The 2 signs (highlighted in red), were about WHEN the king of Assyria will intervene on Ahaz’s behalf, and Assyria arrival will occur when the boy reach a certain age - Isaiah 7:15-17 & 8:4.

And Immanuel wasn’t just mentioned once in 7:14; Immanuel’s name reappear in Isaiah 8:8, which I highlighted in blue.

Are you going to also ignore 2 Kings 15:29 and 2 Kings 16:5-10?

For a Christian, user4578, you really need to brush up your reading.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jewish scripture does not say, a Messiah comes, and then He goes to heaven and then returns another time.
But a careful reading of Jewish scriptures, appears to talk about two different time prophecies. One is about a Messiah and a later prophecy regarding End Time, when a Ruler appears, whose name is the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Glory of the God of Israel, and Lord of Hosts.

But Baha'is do believe Jesus was the Messiah. And Baha'is also believe that Muhammad was a manifestation of God as was Jesus. And they believe that two manifestations were predicted in the end times, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Is all that found in a "careful" reading of Jewish Scriptures. Oh, and that Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, along with Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses were also manifestations of God. Is that found in the Jewish Scriptures? It's the same old story. Christians find Jesus in the Jewish Bible and Baha'is find Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. What's funny is when Baha'is argue with Christians over who fulfilled which Bible prophecies, their guy or Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

I wasn’t talking about Assyria during Hezekiah’s reign.

Isaiah 7:14-17 had to do with Ahaz and the unnamed Assyrian king (Tiglath-pileser in 2 Kings 16:7 & 15:29).

Are you really going to completely ignore Isaiah 7:1-2 & 2 Kings 16:5?

The child in Isa 7 is the same one in Isa 9 who is undoubtedly the Messiah and who seems to come from the Galilee are.

​

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If I can make a few comments about the title and the question presented in this thread. As we all know the title of this thread is "Judaism vs Christianity: Second Coming of Messiah."

Yet, in reality there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. As far as Jews/Torath Mosheh/Judaism is concerned Christians can beleive whatever they want. Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion, adjust their religion, or even to accept Jewish texts (including how they are understood by Jews).

According to us Jews, in reality, this is not a topic that really involves us since we are not competition with any of the religions of the world. Further, since there is no Jewish requirement to convert or convince people to be Jewish or accept Jewish infomation we have no real stake in these kinds of debates. When Jews get involved in topics like this it is often when mis-information is presented about Jews, Jewish views, Jewish history, and Jewish texts (IN HEBREW) are being presented (otherwise most of wouldn't care) or when Christian missionaries are targeting Jews to try to convert us to Christianity. Kind of like that topic where a person who had NO knowledge of the Hebrew language made false claims about what a Hebrew word means while contradicting the sources they themselves provided and tried to use to prove their point. Yet, most Jews would just ignore this.

Even the terminology used in "English" in this type of back and forth is not a Jews vs. Christian matter because if were to take place in Hebrew you could end the discussion in about 10 minutes. For example, if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate. It would be 100% clear what the Jewish text (The Hebrew Tanakh) really says and what it does not say. I.e. the tricks are played with the topic by way of translation into Greek or English.

Lastly, the "English word" messiah, along with a number of other "English" words used in conversations like this, means one thing to Christians and it means something completely different to Jews. For example:

• Messiah: Christians definition = Jesus, dying for sins, sometimes god/sometimes not, personal salvation. (Definitions based on Greek NT and the Church Fathers).

• messiah: Jewish definition = not the correct term, but only used due to presence in English speaking countries. Real word (משיח) meaning someone anointed with oil to do a particular job. Can include Kohanim and also Kings of the Jewish Torah based nation. One particular individual will be a future human king in the land of Israel from the tribe of Yehudah. Said individual will be a paternal descendant of David through Shlomo ben Dawith which will be proven before a Jewish Mosaic court in the land of Israel. This Davidic king will lead by example and teach Torah and Halakha to the Jewish nation - as it is taught in the Mishnah with a standing Mosaic court, Temple in Jerusalem, Kohanim and Levyim working in the Temple, and all Israeli tribes with returned land rights. Said future Davidic king will lead the return of Torah based Israeli/Jewish nation which will facilitate a return of Torah based institutions throughout the land of Israel and a return of descendants of all Jewish tribes to the land of Israel. This future Davidic king will have children, in their lifetime, and one of his sons, and grandsons, will be kings after he passes away. (Definitions based on Hebrew Tanakh/Aramaic Tanakh/transmission of information passed on from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) through the prophets of Israel and also the Torah based leaders of the Jewish people.)

Thus, there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. You can take the vs. out and simply title such a thread "Christianity: The Second Coming" and you can do a seperate thread titled, "Judaism: The Future Davidic King."

 

[Skywalker]

Okay, but the Jewish Messiah was an actual king, not spiritually.

Jesus will rule the kingdoms of the earth righteously from Jerusalem when he returns. Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah?"

Answer: The second coming of Christ is a major tenet of Christian theology, and we eagerly look forward to our “blessed hope” (Titus 2:13). But the knowledge that the Messiah would have two comings came to humanity gradually, as God’s revelation to mankind was progressive.

The Old Testament clearly teaches that the Messiah would come, but it does not explicitly say that He would come twice. The information God revealed about the Messiah started very basic, with more detail added bit by bit. People living in later times knew more than those who lived earlier. Abraham knew more about the purposes of God than did Noah. David knew more than Abraham. The prophets knew more than David. And finally, the apostles in the New Testament knew more than the prophets. The apostles after the resurrection knew more than they did before the resurrection.

The revelation concerning the Messiah progressed over time. Genesis 3:15 is a cryptic first promise of a Messiah. The seed of the woman will destroy the seed of the serpent. Who the seed of the woman is or how He will accomplish His mission is not revealed. Later, David is promised a lasting dynasty, which means that one of his descendants will reign continually. Again, we are not told exactly who this will be or how it will come about. Sometimes, the prophets speak of this reign as if God Himself will sit on the throne (Zechariah 14). At other times, the prophets expect a descendant of David (Psalm 2). Again, the prophets never explain how this will all come together. Jesus questioned the Jewish leaders regarding this tension in Matthew 22:41–45:

 

[Kk4mds]

The term mashiach (messiah) means anointed one and appears many times in Tanakh. It is even used for Cyrus, the Persian king. Most of the times it appears it is about what will occur when when he comes. There are about 12 prophecies (depending on who’s counting) about the messianic age. None of these have occurred.

For a person who claims to be the messiah but doesn’t fulfill the prophesies saying that will happen when the he returns makes the claim unverifiable. When he comes there will be no doubt he is the messiah. All the world will acknowledge Hashem as the one true god.

 

[Brian2]

For a person who claims to be the messiah but doesn’t fulfill the prophesies saying that will happen when the he returns makes the claim unverifiable. When he comes there will be no doubt he is the messiah. All the world will acknowledge Hashem as the one true god.

It does make the claim unverifiable.
If Jesus fulfilled other Messianic prophecies (most of which the Jews seem to dismiss as Messianic even if some Rabbis over the years have called them Messianic) and said that He would return and was rejected by most Jews (a prophecy) and rose from the dead after dying to bear our sins (another Messianic prophecy) and gives the Spirit of God to His followers, it is no wonder that Christians are prepared to wait for His return just as Jews are prepared to wait for His first coming.

 

[Kk4mds]

Most rabbis agree about what prophecies are messianic. There are a few that are points of contention. A couple that are accepted by all include that all people will know Hashem and acknowledge Him as the one true god and there will be world wide peace. Therefore, neither the Jews nor anyone would reject him. An innocent person dying for another’s sins is anathema to Judaism as is human sacrifice.

I’m not trying to convince anyone that the messiah has not come. All I am doing is pointing out some the problem the Judaism has with the concept of a second coming.

 

[Riders]

How will he get here from flying out of the sky and then land where? How will we all see it he's just a man man sized?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The term mashiach (messiah) means anointed one and appears many times in Tanakh. It is even used for Cyrus, the Persian king. Most of the times it appears it is about what will occur when when he comes. There are about 12 prophecies (depending on who’s counting) about the messianic age. None of these have occurred.

For a person who claims to be the messiah but doesn’t fulfill the prophesies saying that will happen when the he returns makes the claim unverifiable. When he comes there will be no doubt he is the messiah. All the world will acknowledge Hashem as the one true god.

If only it was that easy and I would offer, taking into account our spiritual legacy of rejecting the 'Anointed Ones', why would we think we have got it right?

Would it not take that Anointed One to confirm, like Abraham or Moses coming to tell the people what is required!

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

How will he get here from flying out of the sky and then land where? How will we all see it he's just a man man sized?

There will be a loud trumpet blast (or more) and a loud shout and thousands of bright angels will be flying around and Jesus will be shining even brighter than the angels and the dead will rise.
It will be at a time when Israel is needing political salvation.
He will probably land on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem and bring political salvation for Israel.
No doubt there are other things that will happen.
It will be unmissable for everyone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There will be a loud trumpet blast (or more) and a loud shout and thousands of bright angels will be flying around and Jesus will be shining even brighter than the angels and the dead will rise.
It will be at a time when Israel is needing political salvation.
He will probably land on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem and bring political salvation for Israel.
No doubt there are other things that will happen.
It will be unmissable for everyone.

I see the Jews should have embraced Christ as the Messiah.

There in lays a warning for those that did not accept Muhammad.

There in lays a warning for all those that still wait the latter day Messiah.

I would add IMHO, from what Baha'u'llah offered all supported by the Bible, thus it is offerd from a Biblical perspective.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There will be a loud trumpet blast (or more)

There have been 3 since Jesus, also known as the 3 Woes. It is the Dawn of the promissed New Messages given by God, that are the Trumpet Balsts. So around AD720, AD1844 (AH1260) and AD1863.

and a loud shout

The new Message is given to all humanity. When given it becomes our new capacity, this ties into the OP started on that True Faith Teaches itself.

thousands of bright angels will be flying around and Jesus will be shining even brighter than the angel

These angels are the early beleivers who give their lives to the promulgation of the new Message, all the Concourse on High, all the pastt Martyrs all circle in the realms above. Christ again shines from the New Messenger and as promised by Jesus the New Name is accepted by those that receive the Message.

angels and the dead will rise.

The dead are those that accept the new Faith and they arise by being Born Again. I highlight that, as it is a concept that Christianity has coined, yet no Christian has considered they will need to do this for themselves.

It will be at a time when Israel is needing political salvation.

That was in 1844, the control of Israel was still under the Muslim Empire. In 1844 the Edict of Toleration was signed, which paved the way for the Jews to return, it was the 2nd Trumpet blast, the 2nd Woe that initiated the fulfillment of the 1260 year Prophecy, just as William Miller had predicted. The 7th Day Adventists are unaware how close they were.

He will probably land on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem and bring political salvation for Israel.

It was on Mount Carmel, not far from the Cave of Elijah. The German Templers also predicted the return and built their homes at the base of Mount Carmel, they are preserved on both sides of Ben Gurion Avenue, they had the one they awaited actually visit them. Above one of the doors is ensribed The Lord is Nigh.



The New Jerusalem and all the nations flow up the Mountain of the Lord.

No doubt there are other things that will happen.
It will be unmissable for everyone.

There was indeed many happenings, all the Kings and Rulers and the Priests, the Pope's, the peoples of the world were notified. All it needs is our heart to look.

That is all IMHO.

Regards Tony

 

[Rival]

I see the Jews should have embraced Christ as the Messiah.

Why?