sealchan
Well-Known Member
My father is an avid Trump supporter. Earlier today I visited my parents and my father and I indulged in an intense discussion about this difference while my mother and my wife stepped away to the proverbial "ladies parlour" to sit out the discussion.
There was no yelling, but I was "verklempt" almost the whole time. I have had arguments with my father before (and this was more of a heated debate/discussion without any personal vitriol) so that wasn't anything new. We were able to rejoin polite society when our better halves returned to the scene.
At one point I stated that I was really upset when I first learned he was a Trump supporter and he said he was surprised at how emotionally disgusted I was with Trump when I first expressed that.
Before and after the discussion the visit was fine...even the argument was fine. I felt compelled to personally hash some of this out with him face to face. I think that a father and a son need to do this. I keep asking myself, how did my father, who I see as an early moral compass and source of wisdom in my life, come to this? Even after four years of the worst presidency ever he still sends occasional articles about tampered voting machines and blues guitarists who worry that government is over-reaching with vaccine mandates.
One of the things I came to realize as I have debated with people here or on Facebook about their political views is that my sense of truth is not the same as the person with whom I am talking. My father had printed out one article, an essay written by a professor who was the head of a department of Education in Michigan(?) I think...he wanted me to read it because, he said, it really spoke to what he believes. I could hardly get through the second paragraph as it made outrageous claims with no evidence. The first thing it said was "everyone knows" that the Meuller investigation's sole aim was to remove the President from office.
I realized somehow in this moment something about what was the problem...I asked him about the evidence. And he said he doesn't know particulars. I said something to the effect that "you have to at least trace any claims of truth back to someone who, if caught in a lie or misrepresentation, would stand to loose something." I guess in lieu of a poll or research studies or what-have-you I realized that we all rely on trusted authorities and we don't fact check everything back to the Big Bang in order to consider it as truth. But we CAN quite practically trace back a statement to someone who stands something to loose if they speak out of turn. I realized now that this is what is behind all the ethical rules and such that people like Trump blithely ignore...a set of rules that make it hard for someone with bad intent to look good. Heck it even can make it drudgery or someone good to look good. But having jumped through those hoops, we know we have a more ethical system of business or government or what have you. Its all about checks and balances and having the character to withstand that for the sake of transparency.
But to that my father could only say, "I don't know those things...what matters is that this explains what I feel is true". I know that we each need to work hard sometimes bolstering our sense of self-worth in a great big world full of people with good and bad intents who do things that intentionally or unintentionally do others harm including ourselves and those close to us. But I cannot accept that we have no better sense of truth than what it is that makes us feel good. It can never be that simple. You would have to be monumentally naive to think so.
My father taught me something of the value of objective reality...I know he did. But now he seems desperate enough, in the sphere of politics, to leave all that behind.
Any and all thoughts welcome.
There was no yelling, but I was "verklempt" almost the whole time. I have had arguments with my father before (and this was more of a heated debate/discussion without any personal vitriol) so that wasn't anything new. We were able to rejoin polite society when our better halves returned to the scene.
At one point I stated that I was really upset when I first learned he was a Trump supporter and he said he was surprised at how emotionally disgusted I was with Trump when I first expressed that.
Before and after the discussion the visit was fine...even the argument was fine. I felt compelled to personally hash some of this out with him face to face. I think that a father and a son need to do this. I keep asking myself, how did my father, who I see as an early moral compass and source of wisdom in my life, come to this? Even after four years of the worst presidency ever he still sends occasional articles about tampered voting machines and blues guitarists who worry that government is over-reaching with vaccine mandates.
One of the things I came to realize as I have debated with people here or on Facebook about their political views is that my sense of truth is not the same as the person with whom I am talking. My father had printed out one article, an essay written by a professor who was the head of a department of Education in Michigan(?) I think...he wanted me to read it because, he said, it really spoke to what he believes. I could hardly get through the second paragraph as it made outrageous claims with no evidence. The first thing it said was "everyone knows" that the Meuller investigation's sole aim was to remove the President from office.
I realized somehow in this moment something about what was the problem...I asked him about the evidence. And he said he doesn't know particulars. I said something to the effect that "you have to at least trace any claims of truth back to someone who, if caught in a lie or misrepresentation, would stand to loose something." I guess in lieu of a poll or research studies or what-have-you I realized that we all rely on trusted authorities and we don't fact check everything back to the Big Bang in order to consider it as truth. But we CAN quite practically trace back a statement to someone who stands something to loose if they speak out of turn. I realized now that this is what is behind all the ethical rules and such that people like Trump blithely ignore...a set of rules that make it hard for someone with bad intent to look good. Heck it even can make it drudgery or someone good to look good. But having jumped through those hoops, we know we have a more ethical system of business or government or what have you. Its all about checks and balances and having the character to withstand that for the sake of transparency.
But to that my father could only say, "I don't know those things...what matters is that this explains what I feel is true". I know that we each need to work hard sometimes bolstering our sense of self-worth in a great big world full of people with good and bad intents who do things that intentionally or unintentionally do others harm including ourselves and those close to us. But I cannot accept that we have no better sense of truth than what it is that makes us feel good. It can never be that simple. You would have to be monumentally naive to think so.
My father taught me something of the value of objective reality...I know he did. But now he seems desperate enough, in the sphere of politics, to leave all that behind.
Any and all thoughts welcome.
