Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Trailblazer · Aug 25, 2021

samtonga43 said:
You said this recently, and have often said something similar:
"I know because I have looked at the evidence".

I said I know that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be because of the evidence, I never said that I know what will happen to us after we die.

samtonga43 said:
Why do you assume that I need to hound you?

Perhaps because you are hounding me.

samtonga43 said:
I am responding to YOUR posts, Tb. That's how forums generally work.

Some of those posts were posted to you, others were not.

CG Didymus · Aug 25, 2021

Tiberius said:
His self as the messenger and his works as the messenger are also not yet supported and so can not be used as evidence.

You'd think that with all the prophecies in the Hebrew Bible about the Messiah coming, and then all the prophecies about Jesus coming back in the NT, that things would get fulfilled in a way that it is obvious that this guy is the Messiah or is Jesus and has returned. But the "fulfillment" by Baha'u'llah of most of the prophecies are not all that obvious. So, I wonder, what was it good for if God isn't going to have his guy fulfill it a way to get people to know and believe?

It's so bad that TB doesn't even like using prophecies, because they can so easily be interpreted in so many ways. But then what about his "self"? What is that? That he was a good guy? That he let himself be put in prison? Then what's the difference between his revelation and his writings? For me his writings are too flowery, but when others have written down what the main points were, then, sure, he wrote some good stuff.

But there's just so many unanswered questions and questions that he didn't give a good answer to, or didn't mention at all. So he close, like in horseshoes or hand grenades, but is the the "Promised One of All Ages"? The one that every major religion was prophesying about? Maybe, but maybe not. The worst thing for me is that even though they "say" they believe in all the other religions, they really don't. They contradict many beliefs of the other religions, and, of course, they say that Baha'u'llah is right and those other religions are wrong, because people messed with the religion and essentially lost the "original" teachings of the prophet. But who knows? Can the Baha'i Faith work? Can it bring peace and unite the world? I'm not convinced.

CG Didymus · Aug 25, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I do not go chasing after Christians on different threads questioning them about what they believe.
They have a right to believe what they believe, and if they told me they know, it would not bother me one bit. What they believe or know is their own business. It does not threaten me in any way because I am completely secure in what I believe and know. As I have said before, I do not think that certitude comes from me.

So it doesn't bother you that some Christians believe in a Trinitarian God in which Jesus is part of it? That some of them believe Jesus literally rose from the dead? That Jesus is coming back to get his people and cast Satan and all the bad people into hell? That some Christians believe that we all inherited a sin nature from Adam, and without Jesus we are lost in our sins?

How many times have you posted the verses that say that Jesus' work is finished? How many times have you said that Baha'u'llah is the "Comforter" and not the Holy Spirit like Christians believe?

Trailblazer said:
So what is your problem? Why do you need to hound me?

You say that the "Christ" has returned. People are going to want you to prove it. But you can't. Yet, you keep saying it. So people keep asking and questioning you and other Baha'is. What do you expect? After you've given an answer that doesn't satisfy them do you expect them to stop asking? Or, you could stop posting things that get people to question you and the Baha'i Faith. But that's not going to happen is it. And if you keep saying things like, "Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies", then I know I'll keep pointing out that "No", I don't see it, and I don't believe it. And I'll state and re-state my problems with the Baha'i interpretation. Is that alright with you? Or would you rather have me stop "hounding" you?

Trailblazer · Aug 25, 2021

CG Didymus said:
So it doesn't bother you that some Christians believe in a Trinitarian God in which Jesus is part of it? That some of them believe Jesus literally rose from the dead? That Jesus is coming back to get his people and cast Satan and all the bad people into hell? That some Christians believe that we all inherited a sin nature from Adam, and without Jesus we are lost in our sins?

No, it does not bother me. It is just like water off a duck's back. Do you see me hounding any Christians about their beliefs? Do you see me on Christian threads telling Christians that their beliefs are false?

CG Didymus said:
How many times have you posted the verses that say that Jesus' work is finished? How many times have you said that Baha'u'llah is the "Comforter" and not the Holy Spirit like Christians believe?

If it is relevant to the conversation I am having I will post these things about what I believe which is congruent with what is in the Bible. I consider it my job to correct what I believe is false information.

CG Didymus said:
You say that the "Christ" has returned. People are going to want you to prove it. But you can't. Yet, you keep saying it.

Nobody can prove that except to themselves. It is not my job to prove it to other people and I couldn't even if I wanted to. Why do you think I can prove it to other people? If they really want to know they can look at the evidence and prove it to themselves.

CG Didymus said:
So people keep asking and questioning you and other Baha'is. What do you expect? After you've given an answer that doesn't satisfy them do you expect them to stop asking?

That would be the reasonable thing to do, stop asking, and that is what most people do. Do you see many people asking the same things over and over again, once I gave them an answer? There were a few and some remain but most went on their way.

CG Didymus said:
Or, you could stop posting things that get people to question you and the Baha'i Faith. But that's not going to happen is it.

It will happen as soon as people stop posting to me and asking questions about what I believe and why. If people stop posting to me I will stop posting to them. The Baha'i Faith is that last thing I want to talk about, I just respond out of courtesy. Do you see me starting new threads that might elicit conversation about the Baha'i Faith? No, it is other Baha'is that do that.

CG Didymus said:
And if you keep saying things like, "Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies", then I know I'll keep pointing out that "No", I don't see it, and I don't believe it. And I'll state and re-state my problems with the Baha'i interpretation. Is that alright with you? Or would you rather have me stop "hounding" you?

If you don't see it and you don't believe it do you think repeating that over and over is going to change that?
If any progress is being made then there might be a reason to discuss it further but if you have made up your mind why discuss it?

Tiberius · Aug 25, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The United Nations is a step in the same direction but it is not really the same. Look at the difference.

The United Nations is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights.
History of the UN | United Nations Seventieth Anniversary

"In His Epistles He asked the parliaments of the world to send their wisest and best men to an international world conference which should decide all questions between the peoples and establish universal peace. This would be the highest court of appeal," – The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 388.

It's the same, but it's not the same?

No, that is not what I am saying at all. The goal of Jesus is what Jesus stated in the New Testament:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith did not state the goal of Jesus. He was simply putting the revelations Jesus and Baha'u'llah in a historical context and speaking in terms of social evolution. I can understand why you thought that since I paraphrased what he said and it was taken out of context. Below is the full quote:

“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity. The whole surface of the earth was as yet unexplored, and the organization of all its peoples and nations as one unit could, consequently, not be envisaged, how much less proclaimed or established. What other interpretation can be given to these words, addressed specifically by Bahá’u’lláh to the followers of the Gospel, in which the fundamental distinction between the Mission of Jesus Christ, concerning primarily the individual, and His own Message, directed more particularly to mankind as a whole, has been definitely established: 120 “Verily, He [Jesus] said: ‘Come ye after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.’ In this day, however, We say: ‘Come ye after Me, that We may make you to become the quickeners of mankind.’”
The Promised Day Is Come, Religion and Social Evolution, pp. 119-121

Okay, so when it comes to Jesus's goal, who should we believe? The Guardian of Baha'i Faith, or Jesus himself? In post 1373, you said they were two different things.

I don't know what you mean, change people how?

What if we do a genetic test on a child in the womb and find that the child is going to have an increased likelihood of getting certain diseases? Is it okay to alter the child's DNA to make them LESS likely to get those diseases?

I would not call it an aversion, let's just say that porn is not exactly in keeping with the teachings of the Baha'i Faith, although it is not prohibited. No, people should never be put in situations they did not agree to.

But drawing a picture of a person doing something isn't the same as making them actually do it, is it?

No, that is not the case. Since Baha’u’llah wrote these tablets in the present age (Age X), both of the statements are someone speaking in the present age (Age X).

There are three ages being referred to:

1. Ages X-1 = the previous age (Age of Muhammad, 610 AD – 1852 AD)

2. Age X = the present age (Age of Baha’u’llah, 1852 AD – 2852 AD)

3. Age X+1 = a future age (Age of the next Messenger of God, any time after 2852 AD)

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions (Age X) can never be the same as that which a subsequent age (Age X+1) may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day (Age X) should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before (Age X-1). How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

Woah, please don't make that assumption. These could easily be the ages that occur ten thousand years in the future. The whole idea of calling them Age X and Age X+1 was so that they would not be tied to a specific age.

If you want more specifics, here you go: the false Christian doctrines

Sounds to me like these doctrines are considered false simply because they contradict Baha'i teaching.

And I can have my cake and eat it too. That is the beauty of the Baha'i Faith.

Yeah, that's not a good thing.

Tiberius · Aug 25, 2021

Trailblazer said:
It can also be understood from the points of view of all these religions which are all valid because spiritual truth is the same in all the religions and it is eternal.

That would be a lot more convincing if different religions didn't contradict one another.

No, it is not a claim, I have just verified for myself that Baha'u'llah's claims are true. I make no claims because I have nothing to claim.

Incorrect. You claim it is verified.

I cannot know what is going in subconsciously because it is not conscious. Why do you think I would be biased by my subconscious? If that was the case the same would apply to anyone who believed anything because everyone has a subconscious mind, so where does that leaves us?

It leaves us needing some method that allows us to find the truth (or at least, as close to the truth as we can get) and that method is science.

That analogy absolutely DOES NOT apply to religion. What you are suggesting is that if many people checked out the evidence and they believe then it is more likely to be true and that is the fallacy of ad populum.

You bet your life that I am NOT going to believe that Jesus is God or that Jesus rose from the dead because millions of people believe those things. That is the worst reason to believe anything.

Special pleading. You claim that it doesn't apply to science, but you don't give any good reason why it doesn't.

Give it up for lost. Your bias is impossible to break through because you can't even see it. Did you even read the passage I posted before you formed an opinion? No you just jumped to conclusions as to what He meant, another fallacy. Baha'u'llah WAS NOT telling us how to recognize Him; He was telling us how to recognize a Manifestation of God. He was saying not to go by what other people say or do but rather you should investigate for yourself. That was the only criteria He gave.

Perhaps you are calling me biased simply because I do not share your biases.

If you cannot understand why peer review does not work for religion after I explained it I give up.

We never want to believe something just because our peers believe it, we only want to believe it because we have determined it is true for ourselves. Science is completely different because we are dealing with subject matter that can be proven by objective means, tests and end experiments. so we want to see if others have come up with the same findings.

You obviously do not understand science and you do not understand peer review.

Peer review is NOT believing something just because other people believe it.

Peer review is accepting something as more likely to be accurate because other people have examined your work and found that there are no parts where your personal biases could be influencing the results, and because these other people have tried your results and gotten results that agree with yours.

Just give me an example of how you think peer review would work for religion and how that would lead someone to discover the truth about Baha'u'llah.

That's my point. Peer review DOESN'T work for religion because religious beliefs are not accurate representations of reality.

Tiberius · Aug 25, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The sources are not the claim! The claim is IN some of the Writings of Baha'u'llah, but I told you what we are supposed to look at as evidence that supports the claim. You need to look at His Person, His Life, what He accomplished during His Mission on earth, and what He revealed (His teachings). Of course that is presented by the Baha'i Faith because the Baha'is are the people who have the documented information about Baha'u'llah which was passed down by Baha'is who lived in the 19th century! The Baha'i Faith organization has also documented everything that has happened in the Baha'i Faith every step of the way since that time.

You miss my point, once again.

Until Mr B is supported, then we can't take ANYTHING of his as evidence that he really was who he claimed to be.

Please show me that Jesus is who He claimed to be without referring to the New Testament.

Why should I do that when I don't believe it?

You are so biased that it is impossible to break through your bias. You can't think logically with that kind of bias. You imagine that there are people trying to fool you.

I see lots of people trying to get me to believe their claims about religion are true while resorting to logical fallacies.

No, I am just telling you where the information is located. Where do you think you are going to get 'accurate information' about the Baha'i Faith, from other religions that disagree with us such as Jews, Christians, or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists? Why would they give you accurate information? Is a Chevy dealer going to tell you how great Fords are?

Ah, so for accurate information about Islam, go to a Muslim. For accurate information about Judaism, you speak to a Jew. Yet you would have me believe that Baha'is are better qualified than Christians to tell me the correct interpretation of the Bible.

Funny, that.

The information closest to the Source is always the most accurate and that is why the Bible is the most accurate Source of information if you want to know about Christianity.

Not always.

If a person is seeking to deceive, or if a person is mistaken, then their information is not going to be accurate, even if they are the source. How many cult leaders have written manifestos? But that doesn't mean that those manifestos are accurate, does it?

Tiberius · Aug 25, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Sorry, but that is the best evidence.

If you are trying to decide if you want to vote for a certain person for President you would look at the character of the person and what they have accomplished in their lives, particularly in their political career. You might also look at what they wrote if they wrote any papers or books.

You would not know how good of a President he or she would be until he or she got into office, but you would still vote based upon what you know.

Why would the process of assessing and deciding if a man a Messenger be any different?

Because we don't elect messengers from God.

There's a big difference between trying to decide if a person can do a particular job well and a person who claims that reality is a certain way.

CG Didymus · Aug 25, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Where do you think you are going to get 'accurate information' about the Baha'i Faith, from other religions that disagree with us such as Jews, Christians, or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists? Why would they give you accurate information? Is a Chevy dealer going to tell you how great Fords are?

Unfortunately, we aren't necessarily going to get accurate information about Fords or Chevy's from the Chevy dealer. And, as Baha'is tell us, we are not going to get accurate information about truth and God from the different religions. But if we go to people in the other religions and to Atheists, they will give us their reasons why they don't agree with the teachings and claims of the Baha'i Faith.

Like with Christians... born again Christians tell us what to look for to know when Jesus coming back. Jews tell us what to look for to recognize when the Messiah comes and so on with the rest of the religions. It's a big puzzle and even within one religion all the pieces don't fit right. But Baha'is say all the pieces in all the religions have come together and show that Baha'u'llah is the Promised One. We have those pieces... and they don't all fit. Do Baha'is try and force them to fit? I think so. But are Baha'is too biased and too assured that they are right that they are convinced those pieces do fit? For example... Bill Sears taking a smoky day, a meteor shower and an earthquake that happened thousands of miles from Persia and several years before 1844 and made them into fulfillment of prophecies. And you have posted them several times. And unless we are literal believing Christians or Jews, do any of us take the Bible literally? Yet, Baha'is take some verses about someone coming over mountains and rivers and things. Anyway, here's that verse...

King James Bible
In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

So Baha'is say "he" is Baha'u'llah and Persia was part of Assyria in those days. But...

New King James Version
In that day they shall come to you From Assyria and the fortified cities, From the fortress to the River, From sea to sea, And mountain to mountain.
New International Version
In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

So which is it? "He", "They", "People"? Why take the King James Version over the others? Because it fits the Baha'i solution to the puzzle? That's why I can't trust anything any religion tells me. Most all try to sell me their version of the truth. And you probably know how I feel about the six times Baha'is use prophecies that can be made into 1260 years. But all of them start and end at different times, yet Baha'is make them all start in 621AD and end in 1844. To me, that's manipulating things to make them say what you want them to say. So what's a person supposed to do when they do as the Baha'is say, and they investigate the truth for themselves, but it doesn't agree with what they are being told the Baha'is?

CG Didymus · Aug 25, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Please show me that Jesus is who He claimed to be without referring to the New Testament.

Okay, who does the NT say that Jesus is? The Word of God. The Word made flesh. And the Word was God? Okay, forget that because we don't believe it, and even the Baha'i Faith doesn't believe it. Jesus is not God. And on the third day the tomb was empty? And he, Jesus, had risen from the dead? No, we don't believe that either, and, again, even the Baha'i Faith says that's not true.

Tiberius said:
Why should I do that when I don't believe it?

Yes, the NT says things that lots of us don't believe are true, but they are true to Christians. Likewise, things written by Baha'u'llah can say all sorts of stuff, but how do we know it's true? Why would we believe it's true? How can we check it out to see if it's true? Look at his life and character? How? By reading about what people said about him? By reading what he said about himself? People think lots of religious leaders are great... then the guy says, "Here... I made you some nice, refreshing Kool-Aid."

Trailblazer · Aug 26, 2021

CG Didymus said:
Unfortunately, we aren't necessarily going to get accurate information about Fords or Chevy's from the Chevy dealer. And, as Baha'is tell us, we are not going to get accurate information about truth and God from the different religions. But if we go to people in the other religions and to Atheists, they will give us their reasons why they don't agree with the teachings and claims of the Baha'i Faith.

Like with Christians... born again Christians tell us what to look for to know when Jesus coming back. Jews tell us what to look for to recognize when the Messiah comes and so on with the rest of the religions. It's a big puzzle and even within one religion all the pieces don't fit right. But Baha'is say all the pieces in all the religions have come together and show that Baha'u'llah is the Promised One. We have those pieces... and they don't all fit. Do Baha'is try and force them to fit? I think so. But are Baha'is too biased and too assured that they are right that they are convinced those pieces do fit? For example... Bill Sears taking a smoky day, a meteor shower and an earthquake that happened thousands of miles from Persia and several years before 1844 and made them into fulfillment of prophecies. And you have posted them several times. And unless we are literal believing Christians or Jews, do any of us take the Bible literally? Yet, Baha'is take some verses about someone coming over mountains and rivers and things. Anyway, here's that verse...

King James Bible
In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
So Baha'is say "he" is Baha'u'llah and Persia was part of Assyria in those days. But...

New King James Version
In that day they shall come to you From Assyria and the fortified cities, From the fortress to the River, From sea to sea, And mountain to mountain.
New International Version
In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.
So which is it? "He", "They", "People"? Why take the King James Version over the others? Because it fits the Baha'i solution to the puzzle? That's why I can't trust anything any religion tells me. Most all try to sell me their version of the truth. And you probably know how I feel about the six times Baha'is use prophecies that can be made into 1260 years. But all of them start and end at different times, yet Baha'is make them all start in 621AD and end in 1844. To me, that's manipulating things to make them say what you want them to say. So what's a person supposed to do when they do as the Baha'is say, and they investigate the truth for themselves, but it doesn't agree with what they are being told the Baha'is?

I could go over those Bible prophecies again, but what would that prove or disprove? You will always find a reason to believe that Baha'u'llah did not fulfill them and that is easy for anyone to do depending on how they interpret the prophecies. It is ALL about interpretation.

As long as you keep trying to force all the other religions to FIT the Baha'i Faith you will remain struck forever. Baha'u'llah never enjoined us to look at Bible prophecies as proof of who He was. He clearly told us what we need to look at as evidence of His claim....

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Logically speaking, you do not look at older religions to prove that a new religion is true. You look at the new religion and judge it on its own merits... But you never look at Baha'u'llah, you just keep looking at all the older religions and trying to use them to prove that the Baha'i Faith is true. You keep trying to make the older religions FIT into the Baha'i Faith, but they will never fit, became they are different religions that were revealed for different ages and God never intended for them to FIT together with the Baha'i Faith. Rather, the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment of all the past religions that were revealed during the Adamic Cycle of religion.

All the other religions were revealed in the Age of Prophecy but we are now living in the Age of Fulfillment. It is now a whole new ball game, so you have to look at what is going on in the new ball game, not at the old ball games. This is just common sense.

But maybe you don't care if the Baha'i Faith is true or not, maybe you just want to play the field till the day you die, but after that it will be too late to change your mind.

Trailblazer · Aug 26, 2021

CG Didymus said:
But all of them start and end at different times, yet Baha'is make them all start in 621AD and end in 1844. To me, that's manipulating things to make them say what you want them to say. So what's a person supposed to do when they do as the Baha'is say, and they investigate the truth for themselves, but it doesn't agree with what they are being told the Baha'is?

The Baha'is could not care less what the Bible prophecies say because THAT is not why we believe in Baha'u'llah.

Anyone can try to use the Bible to prove or disprove anything they want to prove or disprove.

To investigate the truth about the Baha'i Faith people are supposed to look at Baha'u'llah, not at the Bible prophecies.

samtonga43 · Aug 26, 2021

Trailblazer said:
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If He was a Manifestation of God of course He would have to know that.

Many people have said things like “I am God” or “God speaks to me”, or “God told me to tell you…” etc. etc..

Hospitals are full of them.

samtonga43 · Aug 26, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Baha'is could not care less what the Bible prophecies say because THAT is not why we believe in Baha'u'llah.

Anyone can try to use the Bible to prove or disprove anything they want to prove or disprove.

To investigate the truth about the Baha'i Faith people are supposed to look at Baha'u'llah, not at the Bible prophecies.

Anyone can try to use the B.man to prove or disprove anything they want to prove or disprove.

samtonga43 · Aug 26, 2021

Trailblazer said:
All the other religions were revealed in the Age of Prophecy but we are now living in the Age of Fulfillment. It is now a whole new ball game, so you have to look at what is going on in the new ball game, not at the old ball games. This is just common sense.

It is only common sense based on your assumption that there actually IS an Age of Prophecy and an Age of Fulfillment.
If there is not it is non-sense.

Trailblazer said:
But maybe you don't care if the Baha'i Faith is true or not, maybe you just want to play the field till the day you die, but after that it will be too late to change your mind.

NO!!! Careful, CG Didymus. You have been warned...

Trailblazer · Aug 26, 2021

samtonga43 said:
Many people have said things like “I am God” or “God speaks to me”, or “God told me to tell you…” etc. etc..

Hospitals are full of them.

How is that relevant in any manner shape or form. You just committed the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

Of course some deluded men say that, but that does not mean that a Real Messenger of God would not also say that.

It is the fallacy of hasty generalization to say that just because some men who said that were deluded, therefore all men who said that are deluded. What indicates whether they were deluded or whether they were a Real Messenger of God is the evidence they have to back up their claims.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables.

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

X is true for A.
X is true for B.
Therefore, X is true for C, D, etc.

Faulty generalization - Wikipedia

For example, if a person sees 10 people, all of them deluded men who said they spoke for God, they may erroneously conclude that there are no men who spoke for God.

If there is even one Messenger of God, then it is possible there are other Messengers of God, since an omnipotent God can send as many Messengers as He wants to, whenever He wants to.

Unless you can prove that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger that spoke for God all you have is a personal opinion.

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I could easily say the same thing about Jesus.
"Many people have said things like “I am God” or “God speaks to me”, or “God told me to tell you…” etc. etc..
Hospitals are full of them."

What MORE evidence do you have that God spoke to Jesus than I have that God spoke to Baha'u'llah?
I am still waiting for that evidence.

Trailblazer · Aug 26, 2021

samtonga43 said:
Anyone can try to use the B.man to prove or disprove anything they want to prove or disprove.

Nobody uses Baha'u'llah to try to prove anything, like Christians use the Bible. Baha'u'llah IS the proof.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

The difference between what Baha'u'llah wrote and the Bible is that what Baha'u'llah wrote cannot be misconstrued and interpreted in many different ways, like the Bible. In addition, Baha'u'llah appointed two interpreters of His Writings to explain what He wrote, for anyone who cannot understand it.

Trailblazer · Aug 26, 2021

samtonga43 said:
It is only common sense based on your assumption that there actually IS an Age of Prophecy and an Age of Fulfillment.
If there is not it is non-sense.

Since you mentioned nonsense, what is nonsense is for Christians to continue wait for Jesus to return given what Jesus said.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

Trailblazer · Aug 26, 2021

Tiberius said:
It's the same, but it's not the same?

As I said, it is a step in the same direction but it is not really the same. Look at the difference.
Didn't you see the difference?

Tiberius said:
Okay, so when it comes to Jesus's goal, who should we believe? The Guardian of Baha'i Faith, or Jesus himself? In post 1373, you said they were two different things.

In post 1373, I said "That was Jesus' general goal according to the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, not what Jesus claimed as His goal. Jesus said that His goal was to bear witness unto the truth about God."

Then when I realized that was not the 'goal' of Jesus, I said in post 1472 "Whatever I said in The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith did not state the goal of Jesus. He was simply putting the revelations Jesus and Baha'u'llah in a historical context and speaking in terms of social evolution. I can understand why you thought that since I paraphrased what he said and it was taken out of context. Below is the full quote:"
Did you read the quote?

To answer your question, we should believe what Jesus said was His goal in the New Testament because that is the closed approximation to the words of Jesus that we have. We should always believe the person who stated their goal rather than assume we know or get that information second hand. For example, you should not assume you know my goals but rather you should believe me when I tell you what they are.

Tiberius said:
What if we do a genetic test on a child in the womb and find that the child is going to have an increased likelihood of getting certain diseases? Is it okay to alter the child's DNA to make them LESS likely to get those diseases?

I don't know why not. Advancements in science should be used to improve human life on earth.

Tiberius said:
But drawing a picture of a person doing something isn't the same as making them actually do it, is it?

No, it is not the same.

Tiberius said:
Woah, please don't make that assumption. These could easily be the ages that occur ten thousand years in the future. The whole idea of calling them Age X and Age X+1 was so that they would not be tied to a specific age.

What assumption do you think I made? Did you understand what I said about the passages, how they were Baha'u'llah speaking from the present age, and how the first passage was referring to a previous age (which could be any age in the past) and how second passage was referring to a future age (which could be any age in the future)?

Tiberius said:
Sounds to me like these doctrines are considered false simply because they contradict Baha'i teaching.

No, that is not the reason they are false. They are false because they are false and they were false BEFORE there was ever a Baha'i Faith, so that means they are not false because of the Baha'i Faith.

Tiberius said:
Yeah, that's not a good thing.

Why isn't it a good thing?

samtonga43 · Aug 26, 2021

Trailblazer said:
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How is that relevant in any manner shape or form. and you just committed the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization. Of course some deluded men say that, but that does not mean that a Real Messenger of God would not also say that.

That is my point. Note my emphasis.

Trailblazer said:
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It is the fallacy of hasty generalization to say that just because some men who said that were deluded, therefore all men who said that are deluded. What indicates whether they were deluded or whether they were a Real Messenger of God is the evidence they have to back up their claims.

And Mr.B has as much evidence that he is God, or that God speaks to him, as has someone who is deluded.

Trailblazer said:
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Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. For example, if a person sees 10 people, all of them deluded men who said they spoke for God, they may erroneously conclude that there are no men who spoke for God.

But that is not what I’ve done. You’re very good at C/Pasting but not so good at understanding your C/Ps.

Trailblazer said:
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Unless you can prove that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger that represented God it is just your personal opinion.

Illogical. It’s up to you to prove the POSITIVE statement (MrB IS a messenger). I ought to add that this is something you will never be able to do.

Trailblazer said:
$C:\Users\Eileen\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif$
What MORE evidence do you have that God spoke to Jesus than I have that God spoke to Baha'u'llah? I am still waiting for that evidence.

Do you know which logical fallacy you have just committed?

Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

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