Religions actively employ the cycle of abuse.

infrabenji said:

We have many different systems for identifying abuse. A quick google search will tell you that. What you don’t find are religious organizations admitting that widespread abuse occurs and I haven’t found a truly in-depth study. One that crosses disciplines and cultures. There are mechanisms, systems etc. specific to religions that abusers leverage against others. Whether it’s Catholic SA or bilking old ladies for money on TV or throwing a gay person off a building or oppressing women. There are specific abuses with specific causes. Even as we saw today many people can at the very least accept that it is true and in many cases could also name the specific mechanism for the abuse they have observed. Is there an issue with people coming together to combat an endemic problem? You all consider yourselves individually to be intellectual Titans but when it comes down to it most everyone simply attacks each other. The most difficult tasks I’ve had today is getting people to stop insulting each other long enough to cooperate. I have born egregious affronts to my character today by people who don’t know me from god. And the last thing I need is you condescending to me about culture. I have bent over backwards to attempt to have meaningful discourse and all I’ve gotten in return is to have my personal, academic, and professional achievements dismissed off hand as if they are some small feat. Did you know I’m from Oslo? Did you know I spent many years of my life abroad in places such as Bali, Jakarta, Japan, South Korea, Guam, Okinawa, Mexico, Norway, South Africa, Guatemala, America and almost every state in it including Alaska? I have 3 degrees from 2 different universities and an working on my fourth. I’m independently wealthy but not as wealthy as my gorgeous fiancé who’s 15 years younger than me. I live on the oldest continuously inhabited land in America in the coolest house in one of the most highly sought after communities in the entire country. My friends personal beliefs are diverse and include the people of the red willow, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, Christians, Atheists, and Agnostics. I even have one messianic friend. We sit in the same room together, eat together, volunteer together, and share without insult to each other, our ideas and respective belief systems. So when you tell me that this is an international forum and my culture isn’t the only one do you mean my culture as a Tiwa, A Balinese, a Japanese, an American, a Norwegian, a Guamanian? What? You know what it doesn’t matter. I’m done with this forum. I thought this would be a fun and fruitful endeavor but it’s so rare that the atheist and even theists of different beliefs alike can’t seem to get through a single statement without insulting each other on this forum. Fortunately, I have a very rich life full of love and all good things. Unlike many of the people on here I can retire away from this forum back to my life and for the better. Raise middle finger. Goodbye and for the best.

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Wau, use some paragraphs and split the text. Now if you don't want to, I will copy your text and do it myself.

mikkel_the_dane said:

Yeah, and I believe it is not special to religion.

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Military brain washing begins in boot camp, where soldiers are trained to believe that they come in as worms and leave (with a couple of weeks of training) as highly trained soldiers impervious to bullets (supermen).

Cults brain wash members to give up their lifetime savings, submit to beatings, and often provide sexual favors to lure new members. This is how EST does it (aka Scientology).

KAT-KAT said:

Depends on the religious group. But I think you're painting with too broad a brush.

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That explains the Mona Lisa's iconic smile.

Clara Tea said:

Military brain washing begins in boot camp, where soldiers are trained to believe that they come in as worms and leave (with a couple of weeks of training) as highly trained soldiers impervious to bullets (supermen).

Cults brain wash members to give up their lifetime savings, submit to beatings, and often provide sexual favors to lure new members. This is how EST does it (aka Scientology).

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Well, I was brainwashed well. I am a former professional soldier, but I was not brainwashed like you claim.

infrabenji said:

Fire dragon how did you become the intellectual giant you are today? You parents must be so proud. Goodbye.

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A little boy went to a meeting of farm workers with his father. Where was that 9 foot tall leader with the huge intellect? Where was the leader...Caesar Chavez. There he is...pointing to a normal looking man, a bit old, and a bit short. Gasp....that could not be him. Yes....it is him. His father said "look with your heart, not your eyes."

Greatness is within each of us. Our ideas are not accepted at first, but they create tiny ripples that eventually reach receptive ears. Greatness is measured by how those ideas are perceived....not by who created them.

Housewives often post in forums...and they say "I'm only a housewife." Only? Nonsense....we all are powerful as long as our ideas are sound.

infrabenji said:

Fire dragon how did you become the intellectual giant you are today? You parents must be so proud. Goodbye.

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Hmm. If you think some kind of ad hominem is a foundation to your confidence, it just shows there is none.

Ciao.

infrabenji said:

I totally agree that goes for both religious people and non religious people alike. Though no one is making that argument. The purpose is not to single out any one specific religious group or an individuals beliefs. It is to identify the methods of abuse across disciplines and help people extricate themselves from abuse. Please read more than just the title post of a several hundred paragraph multi layered conversation involving multiple religions so your contribution can be something meaningful that moves the conversation forward. Instead of being the 29th person to walk into the room post the same comment. Let me know if you need clarification. I’ve been trying to have a polite and good natured conversation that benefits more than just myself all day.

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So maybe you might like to write more accurate titles?

I don't think that religions are more controlling or demanding than secular institutions. Examples of both that are outrageous can be found.
For example, North Korea is an atheist state, and life there can be very very dodgy.

I hear lots of adverse comments about Iran but I have read that Jews living there are can live their lives with less problems than,say, in France.

infrabenji said:

I show you courtesy and you return it with mockery.

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Rubbish. You showed me ...

and I returned it with contempt for the pretentious bigotry inherent in such a pathetic, blanket condemnation.

So, yet again:

• how many religious people?
• typifying how many religions?
• how frequently?
• based on what evidence?

Jayhawker Soule said:

Rubbish. You showed me ...

​

and I returned it with contempt for the pretentious bigotry inherent in such a pathetic, blanket condemnation.

So, yet again:

• how many religious people?
• typifying how many religions?
• how frequently?
• based on what evidence?

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And is that specific to only religious people? Or is a variation particular to religion, yet part of a more general human behavior?

idea said:

For those leaving Mormonism, there are many resources. The following may be helpful to those who have left other faiths as well:
https://www.daretodoubt.org/resources
Resources - Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
4 Things Everyone Leaving Mormonism Should Know
Faith After Mormonism
Recovery from Mormonism - the Mormon Church
Quitmormon

For those with children who were abused in the Mormon church:
About
for LGBTQ kids: https://www.mamadragons.org/

The above are for those who leave Mormonism, but there are other similar groups and organizations for other cults. There are podcasts, meetup groups, just start googling and you will find them.

That said, anyone leaving a community they have devoted their lives to and entrenched themselves in for long periods of time, it will be difficult to create a new community, define new beliefs, and get used to a new life. There are those who bounce from one unhealthy group to another, like those who bounce from one unhealthy relationship to another... For anyone who has depended on a group to tell them what to wear, what to eat, filled every spare minute with mindless rituals and things to do - just thinking for yourself, and being independent is a struggle. Anyone strong enough to leave, is strong enough to become self-reliant too. Don't look for any support group to be the new "support", the final goal is to learn to support yourself.

Hope that will be helpful, and that others who have left other abusive faiths will add to the resource list.

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Thanks. I definitely think the ex - _________ forums have a place for discreetly finding someone to talk to about it, although personal abuse isn't always the reason somebody joins an ex ______ forum.

infrabenji said:

I believe religious people frequently employ the cycle of abuse as a method for indoctrination and inculcating unquestioning devotion. I feel there is a strong parallel between indoctrination and the cycle of abuse. I have confidence that this practice causes emotional, physical, and psychological damage to the victim. I believe the abuse manifests in different forms such as identity loss, guilt syndrome, stygiophobia, death anxiety, sexual repression, compulsivity, self blame, and more. I believe victims often, actively and unknowingly, participate in their own abuse. I also believe these abuses have deleterious long term impacts for the victim and can be correlated to higher levels of depression, anxiety, self deception, denial, somatic concerns, dissociative patterns, etc. Do you agree or disagree that this can be the case? I’d like to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance for everyone’s insight.

Edit: The generalization is intentional as I perceive it may be a sensitive subject for many religious people. I don’t want to isolate anyone or make any one group feel singled out.

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In my experience, Left wing atheists are the worse abusers on internet discussion web sites. This is a religions site. Here the atheist are only mildly abusive. They have little positive to say about anyone not in their atheist religion. This is a form of conditioning. The negativity will stop if you join their gang.

If religion was so abusive, the shoe should be on the other foot, especially on religious sites like this. Atheists would fear religious sites, less they become abused and brain washed victims. It is the way around, with the turn the calm and rational other cheek of the religious, empowering the bullies. They are not held accountable, since the impact of their efforts is minor on the faithful.

If you go on an atheist led discussion site and you say you are religious and/or try to defend religion from the bullies, expect packs of wild dogs to try to isolate you, break you down and/or scare you away. There are even packs of LGBT activists on some sites who will gang tackle religious people who do not blindly drink the cool-aid.

In more real life, where people meet face to face, the most abusive internet groups people hide their inner Nazi, since they do not have good rational arguments for peaceful debate and they cannot their hide their emotional and psychological abuse behind anonymity. Religious people tend to be more uniform in behavior in all the different settings.

In real life, LGBT activists group will sometimes gang tackle religious individuals who do not obey their bidding; bakery owner. They will try to destroy businesses of good people who do not obey and help compensate for their own inner doubt. That is an abuse of political power.

Smaller religious groups; individual churches, sometimes become more abusive compared to larger religious groups. This is because smaller groups have more personal connection with each other and can more easily tailor the abuse to each individual. There is more anonymity in larger groups, so one size fits all abuse, can backfire or be ineffective.

I never felt abused in church, but rather I felt safe and positive due to being part of a larger peaceful organization. Even the bullies of the real life; adults and children, would not dare be abusive anywhere near the church or priest. I left the church as a teen not to run away from abuse, but to run toward the sirens and lures of the secular world. That was a type of abuse since it was an illusion that destroys innocence under guise of fun based conformity. One becomes harder, more competitive and less emphatic toward others, all for fun and profit.

infrabenji said:

...identity loss...

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In my religion, this is kind of the goal.

infrabenji said:

I believe religious people frequently employ the cycle of abuse as a method for indoctrination and inculcating unquestioning devotion. I feel there is a strong parallel between indoctrination and the cycle of abuse. I have confidence that this practice causes emotional, physical, and psychological damage to the victim. I believe the abuse manifests in different forms such as identity loss, guilt syndrome, stygiophobia, death anxiety, sexual repression, compulsivity, self blame, and more. I believe victims often, actively and unknowingly, participate in their own abuse. I also believe these abuses have deleterious long term impacts for the victim and can be correlated to higher levels of depression, anxiety, self deception, denial, somatic concerns, dissociative patterns, etc. Do you agree or disagree that this can be the case? I’d like to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance for everyone’s insight.

Edit: The generalization is intentional as I perceive it may be a sensitive subject for many religious people. I don’t want to isolate anyone or make any one group feel singled out.

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It's a matter of perspective, really. Those outside the window looking in can certainly perceive this to be the case, but the indoctrinated individual is typically ignorant to this and goes about their path. As I see it, this is a result of their karma.

That said, this is not unique to religion. As I see it, any sort of attachment or desire, especially those that are a result of ignorance, leads to suffering.

I left a job that had a "cycle of abuse." I put up with it for a long time because of attachment to the money. I shed that attachment, overcame ignorance, and no longer suffer as a result.

infrabenji said:

I believe religious people frequently employ the cycle of abuse as a method for indoctrination and inculcating unquestioning devotion. I feel there is a strong parallel between indoctrination and the cycle of abuse. I have confidence that this practice causes emotional, physical, and psychological damage to the victim. I believe the abuse manifests in different forms such as identity loss, guilt syndrome, stygiophobia, death anxiety, sexual repression, compulsivity, self blame, and more. I believe victims often, actively and unknowingly, participate in their own abuse. I also believe these abuses have deleterious long term impacts for the victim and can be correlated to higher levels of depression, anxiety, self deception, denial, somatic concerns, dissociative patterns, etc. Do you agree or disagree that this can be the case? I’d like to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance for everyone’s insight.

Edit: The generalization is intentional as I perceive it may be a sensitive subject for many religious people. I don’t want to isolate anyone or make any one group feel singled out.

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And non-religious people are more involved in sexual abuse, violence, drugs, theft, broken homes etc..
Once upon a time most European nations held the death penalty for adultery, for instance. Now we have
a completely sexualized culture - and this eventually spread into the churches. Sorry but removing religion
is not going to help.

SalixIncendium said:

In my religion, this is kind of the goal.

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Always been an ongoing goal of mine to go unnoticed in daily stuff. In sports, they say the best umpire or referee is the one that goes unnoticed.

Vinayaka said:

I asked you about what you meant by cycle of abuse--

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Going off cycles of abuse, are you familiar with the process of door-to-door proselytizing? Perhaps not; it's really simple. A couple of old women, or maybe two young men in white shirts on bikes, knock on your door and ask you if you've got a moment to talk about Jesus. Maybe sometimes there's a conversation, but often people decide to be rude or dismissive or take that time to rip on their beliefs. And then they go away. Maybe the Jehovah's Witnesses mark your door in an inconspicuous way so that other JW's know that you're a "lost cause", and maybe they keep pestering you. But the Mormons? Won't be seeing those two again.

Simple, right? Only it's not.

From reports by people who do these "Missionary Trips", only a reported 25% (roughly) engaged in civil conversation. There are no numbers on how many people actually convert. But it's not about us. It's not actually about converting people and growing the congregation. It's about instilling the "Us vs Them" mentality. I don't know so much for the JW's, I don't know how their whole process rolls. But for the Mormons, they're sent out into the wilderness (as it were) and met with rudeness. Not necessarily because people are inherently mean, but because their presentation is designed to be annoying. They're immediately recognizable. They intrude on people's personal life, call their personal beliefs into dismissive question. Often they'll straight up interrupt people to spread their "important message". I was once in a Walmart catching up with a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years, and a couple Missionaries literally interrupted our conversation completely out of Left Field to talk about Jesus. It's 2021; everyone's heard about Jesus.

The purpose for this is that they come back to their congregation or church feeling awful. They've been yelled at, insulted, their faith has been mocked and picked apart and scrutinized. And they're met with open arms. "Oh, poor child, come to us, you're safe now." They're made to feel safe, as though they belong there and only there. Those are the people who love them, who care for them, and the outside world is evil and bad.

Cyclical abusive reinforcement.

The Kilted Heathen said:

Going off cycles of abuse, are you familiar with the process of door-to-door proselytizing? Perhaps not; it's really simple. A couple of old women, or maybe two young men in white shirts on bikes, knock on your door and ask you if you've got a moment to talk about Jesus. Maybe sometimes there's a conversation, but often people decide to be rude or dismissive or take that time to rip on their beliefs. And then they go away. Maybe the Jehovah's Witnesses mark your door in an inconspicuous way so that other JW's know that you're a "lost cause", and maybe they keep pestering you. But the Mormons? Won't be seeing those two again.

Simple, right? Only it's not.

From reports by people who do these "Missionary Trips", only a reported 25% (roughly) engaged in civil conversation. There are no numbers on how many people actually convert. But it's not about us. It's not actually about converting people and growing the congregation. It's about instilling the "Us vs Them" mentality. I don't know so much for the JW's, I don't know how their whole process rolls. But for the Mormons, they're sent out into the wilderness (as it were) and met with rudeness. Not necessarily because people are inherently mean, but because their presentation is designed to be annoying. They're immediately recognizable. They intrude on people's personal life, call their personal beliefs into dismissive question. Often they'll straight up interrupt people to spread their "important message". I was once in a Walmart catching up with a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years, and a couple Missionaries literally interrupted our conversation completely out of Left Field to talk about Jesus. It's 2021; everyone's heard about Jesus.

The purpose for this is that they come back to their congregation or church feeling awful. They've been yelled at, insulted, their faith has been mocked and picked apart and scrutinized. And they're met with open arms. "Oh, poor child, come to us, you're safe now." They're made to feel safe, as though they belong there and only there. Those are the people who love them, who care for them, and the outside world is evil and bad.

Cyclical abusive reinforcement.

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The JW's have me marked as 'no chance, going to hell'. OTOH, Mormon missionaries lived in a mission house donated by a local member across the back fence. I took the initiative to engage them on the one afternoon they had off from mission work, to do laundry. I always made it clear right away I was Hindu and had no interest in their faith, but since I like people, I had no reason to shun them from across the fence. The shoveled neighbourhood walks, helped me move my rose plants, and were generally nice kids, I saw them as people, not as missionaries, and more than once I heard somebody mumbling about how he just wanted to go home, or about how they hated the door to door bit. They much preferred teaching a Mormon youth class. One guy kept asking many questions about Hinduism, which my wife generally got to answer. Twice we had some over for dinner.

The one thing I did learn from all that is that they're people ... all with different stories, different backgrounds. I met a Brazilian, several from Utah, a European, A Filipino, and several from eastern Canada.

They too no longer come to my door.

I've also hosted some at the Hindu temple I go to.

infrabenji said:

...Have you come across someone who was abused in some way by a religious organization or individual within a religious organization?...

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Thanks for the clarification. I have not come across someone who was abused. But, if someone is claiming to be a Christian (=disciple of Jesus) and abuses others, it is sad and wrong.

Vinayaka said:

Thanks. I definitely think the ex - _________ forums have a place for discreetly finding someone to talk to about it, although personal abuse isn't always the reason somebody joins an ex ______ forum.

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Each person has a different story. I did leave because of abuse - child abuse by a bishopric councilor. It was not just one bad apple, it was an an entire organization who protected him, and allowed the abuse to continue for multiple decades. Child abuse is pretty common in many religious organizations due to the shame culture and unhealthy sexual beliefs and practices of many groups. I know have a testimony that those in the Mormon church are NOT called of God, that the priesthood does NOT protect anyone but themselves, that the church is NOT true, that the Mormon scriptures were plagiarized, that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were adulterous pedophiles themselves, that many of the men in the church hold to sick polygamous pedophile fanaticism due to worship of the founders of that religious faith who are no different from Warren Jeffs. I testify that brain washing is real - that there are amazing sensations - warmth and tingling herd/social bonding sensations but that those feelings are NOT from God - it is a weird social bonding thing that exists in many cult groups:


I will share the above video over and over and over again to anyone who thinks they were "called" of God, or thinks that warm/tingly good feeling testifies of truth. That feeling does NOT protect you. It does NOT testify of truth, it is NOT from God. It is social elevation emotion. I watched - everyone "feel the spirit" during general conference, then read news afterwards as story was removed because it was completely fake:
Mormon Apostle Withdraws Embellished Story

Here is another example - this time the "prophet" telling a story that everyone "felt the spirit" over, and that story was fake:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/opf8cw/breaking_president_nelsons_flight_story_proven_to/

So you have to re-associate that feeling with what it is - NOT the truth, NOT protection, NOT from God, but a strange social/heard thing. Those convinced that feeling is God - please watch the video, you are feeling the same thing those girls in the polygamous groups are feeling, you are feeling the same thing people in Heaven's Gate felt - it is the same thing, and it is NOT from God.

Their current "prophet" is polygamous, remarried as soon as first wife died, and brags about his "wives" during conference. Mormon men believe the highest degree of glory is for those who have multiple wives. In the temple, women covenant - not to God - but to their husband. For Mormon women, their husband is their Lord and their God. For Mormons reading this, pay attention next time in the temple - you covenant, not to "Heavenly Father", but to "the Lord", and the Lord is the one who meets you at the veil, it is your husband. Oh, and your husband does not covenant to be loyal to you, or to provide or protect you.

I will testify that cognitive dissonance is real. When your survival depends on some kind of situation - like little abused kids dissociating because their mind needs to protect itself, needs to survive, so your mind really will separate itself and refuse to acknowledge information that attacks what it believes to be "survival"...

It takes sitting with detectives, watching videos of kids being abused - some of the videos from inside the Mormon church building - and taking a few times watching it to realize the extent of the horror.

Those nice people? It is "grooming". The worst kind of twisted sickness - they are not being nice, they are grooming you.

I bear my testimony, I know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is FALSE. is EVIL.

Vinayaka said:

The one thing I did learn from all that is that they're people ... all with different stories, different backgrounds. I met a Brazilian, several from Utah, a European, A Filipino, and several from eastern Canada.

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Yes - some Mormons you meet, their minds are actually brain washed - they are entrapped in their delusions, and you can treat them like they have a mental illness.

Others are in the cult from family obligations - they have started figuring things out, but they have no community or understanding outside of the church so they need help. Many missionaries figure it out while "serving" after having the chance to really talk with those outside their faith. Do what you can for those poor kids, they need all the support and help they can get.