Which one is a Cult? A or B?

TrueBeliever37 · Jul 6, 2021

Brian2 said:
What I am saying is that the Father is the Father of Jesus because Jesus had a spirit and that spirit came from heaven to dwell as a man in a physical body. Jesus the man is the whole man, body and spirit and God prepared a body for Jesus and places Jesus spirit in that body.
If the Son was just the body (as you seem to be saying) and not the spirit in the body also then God would not be His Father. That would be like saying God is the Father of the rocks.

Jesus is from heaven, from the Father and returned there.
John 16:28
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.”

He was the Son of God from eternity. It is the Son through whom all things were made.
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

It is the prehuman Jesus who had a mind to take the form of a servant and become a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

It is the man Jesus who did not exist as a man before His conception. The eternal Son existed before He became a man but the human Son did not exist.

John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
In the spirit of Jesus is the Father who is in Jesus as Jesus is in the Father. God cannot be split up. Father and Son are together in the one Spirit.
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
The fullness of deity dwells in Jesus because in Him is the Father and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the ruler of creation and has all power and authority in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28:16 Rev 3:14)

Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father because Jesus is the image of the invisible God and is the imprint of God's nature and has the glory of the Father. (Col 1:15 Heb 1:3)
That does not mean He is the Father however imo.
They do not look alive because the Father is not a man but they are identical in other ways.
The Father and the Son both come and make their dwelling with and in someone who loves Jesus and obeys His teaching and this happens when we receive the Holy Spirit (in whom is the Father and Son) John 14:23

I used Isa 40:3 earlier today to show that Jesus is Yahweh.
I also use other NT quotes from the OT which are about Yahweh in the OT and about Jesus in the NT to show that Jesus is Yahweh.
To me, as a Trinitarian it does not mean that the Father is His Son.
Yahweh was alone spreading out the heavens but the Son did it. (Heb 1:10 Psalm 102:25 Isa 44:24)
To me that means that the Son and Father are the one God. The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father and the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, the one Spirit (Romans 8:9 Eph 4:4)
Yahweh is one (Deut 6:4) in a compound way.
I and the Father are one means one "thing" ("one" is in the neuter and so it means one thing)
Of course they agree, that goes without saying, but that is not what Jesus meant and the Jews knew it and so wanted to stone Him. (John 10:30)

Your answers flip flop all over the place. YHWH is the Father. So if you proved earlier using Isaiah 40:3 that the Messiah was YHWH then you are already contradicting yourself. Because one time you are saying he is YHWH, then in the next breath you say he is not the Father.

Starlight · Jul 6, 2021

TrueBeliever37 said:
Your answers flip flop all over the place. YHWH is the Father. So if you proved earlier using Isaiah 40:3 that the Messiah was YHWH then you are already contradicting yourself. Because one time you are saying he is YHWH, then in the next breath you say he is not the Father.

You misunderstand the trinity dictrine.
According to the trinity both the Father, Jesus and Holy spirit is the One God, named YHWH.

According to the trinity God is one Being but at the same time three persons.

According to the trinity the Father, Jesus, Holy spirit is the one God of the universe/universes named YHWH

Most Christian is the world believe that. They believe God is one divine Being, three persons

So yes, according to most christians Jesus is YHWH but at the same time Jesus is not the Father. So Brian2 do not contradict himself

TrueBeliever37 · Jul 6, 2021

Meandflower said:
You misunderstand the trinity dictrine.
According to the trinity both the Father, Jesus and Holy spirit is the One God, named YHWH.

According to the trinity God is one Being but at the same time three persons.

The Father, Jesus, Holy spirit is the one God of the universe/universes named YHWH

No, I understand the Trinity. It is a doctrine that teaches there are 3 separate distinct persons in the Godhead that are each totally and completely God, yet supposedly there is only 1 God.

Do you believe each is only 1/3 of God?

Starlight · Jul 6, 2021

TrueBeliever37 said:
No, I understand the Trinity. It is a doctrine that teaches there are 3 separate distinct persons in the Godhead that are each totally and completely God, yet supposedly there is only 1 God.

You are wrong. What you describe is a heresy called tritheism. What you describe is not the offical trinity doctrine.

The offical trinity doctrine is that God is only one divine Being. That the three persons share the same divine Being.

The trinity do NOT teach that God is three beings. That is the heresy called tritheism

TrueBeliever37 · Jul 6, 2021

Meandflower said:
You misunderstand the trinity dictrine.
According to the trinity both the Father, Jesus and Holy spirit is the One God, named YHWH.

According to the trinity God is one Being but at the same time three persons.

According to the trinity the Father, Jesus, Holy spirit is the one God of the universe/universes named YHWH

Most Christian is the world believe that. They believe God is one divine Being, three persons

So yes, according to most christians Jesus is YHWH but at the same time Jesus is not the Father. So Brian2 do not contradict himself

John 4:24 says that God is a Spirit. It doesn't say anything about God being 3 persons.

And Ephesians 4:4 says there is only one Spirit. So now please explain how that allows a Trinity.

TrueBeliever37 · Jul 6, 2021

Meandflower said:
You are wrong. What you describe is a heresy called tritheism. What you describe is not the offical trinity doctrine.

The offical trinity doctrine is that God is only one divine Being. That the three persons share the same divine Being.

The trinity do NOT teach that God is three beings. That is the heresy called tritheism

Well according to the Catholic's own writings that IS what they believe. Of course they don't say there are 3 Gods because the scripture clearly says there is only one God.

Look at the Trinity diagrams they put out.
They say:
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father is not the Son.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Holy Spirit.

Then they turn around and say there is only one God. How is that not what I stated as the doctrine of the Trinity?

Starlight · Jul 6, 2021

TrueBeliever37 said:
John 4:24 says that God is a Spirit. It doesn't say anything about God being 3 persons.

And Ephesians 4:4 says there is only one Spirit. So now please explain how that allows a Trinity.

Yes according to the trinity doctrine God is only one divine Being. And because of this God is only one divine spirit

According to the trinity doctrine God is only one divine Being/One spirit the three persons share

Starlight · Jul 6, 2021

TrueBeliever37 said:
Well according to the Catholic's own writings that IS what they believe. Of course they don't say there are 3 Gods because the scripture clearly says there is only one God.

Look at the Trinity diagrams they put out.
They say:
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father is not the Son.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Holy Spirit.

Then they turn around and say there is only one God. How is that not what I stated as the doctrine of the Trinity?

According to the catholic doctrine there is only one God because God is only one Being/Spirit shared by the three persons

Yes the Father is not the son
The Father is not the Holy spirit
And the son is not the Holy spirit

The persons of God is different yes
BUT they share the same divine Being. And that is because God is only one Being. And because God is only one Being, God is One.

TrueBeliever37 · Jul 6, 2021

Meandflower said:
According to the catholic doctrine there is only one God because God is only one Being/Spirit shared by the three persons

Yes the Father is not the son
The Father is not the Holy spirit
And the son is not the Holy spirit

The persons of God is different yes
BUT they share the same divine Being. And that is because God is only one Being. And because God is only one Being, God is One.

Ok if the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Father is not the Son, then that is more than one God already.

You may claim to only believe in one God, but in reality you are believing in 3 Gods. Just do the math!

You say the Father is not the Holy Spirit, but the scriptures say the Father is the Holy Spirit - Just read Matthew 1:18-20

Starlight · Jul 6, 2021

TrueBeliever37 said:
Ok if the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Father is not the Son, then that is more than one God already.

You may claim to only believe in one God, but in reality you are believing in 3 Gods. Just do the math!

I do not believe in the trinity. I believe in strict monotheism like jews and baha'is. The trinity is soft monotheism

No the offical trinity do NOT teach three gods. That is because the trinity doctrine is that God is only one Being. And because God is only one Being, God is one. The trinity teaching is that God is only one Being shared by three persons

The offical trinity doctrine is NOT that God is three beings. That is a heresy called tritheism

TrueBeliever37 · Jul 6, 2021

Meandflower said:
I do not believe in the trinity. I believe in strict monotheism like jews and baha'is. The trinity is soft monotheism

No the offical trinity do NOT teach three gods. That is because the trinity doctrine is that God is only one Being. And because God is only one Being, God is one. The trinity teaching is that God is only one Being shared by three persons

The offical trinity doctrine is NOT that God is three beings. That is a heresy called tritheism

The Trinity doctrine is obviously false. I never said they teach there are 3 Gods. They have to say there is only one God because the scripture is so clear on that. But they are believing in 3 Gods no matter what they say.

When you have a Father that is God, and a Son that is God, and a Holy Spirit that is God. If they are 3 separate distinct persons then that is 3 Gods.

The only way around that would be if they believed each was only 1/3 of God. And they don't believe that.

metis · Jul 7, 2021

TrueBeliever37 said:
Well according to the Catholic's own writings that IS what they believe.

In order to understand how we use "Trinity" in the Church, one need to understand the concept of "essence", which was a concept used by Aristotle and Plato that was reflected in the early Church writings in Koine Greek.

Thus, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God, which makes them God even though there's a difference between them. It's sorta like if I said "I am of the essence of my ancestors" even though I am not technically my ancestors.

In the case of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, that essence is "Divine", an example of which is where Jesus says that if "you know the Father you know me" [paraphrased].

YoursTrue · Jul 7, 2021

TrueBeliever37 said:
The Holy Spirit is the Father. There are NOT 3 equal persons called God.

Well, since there are various explanations about the trinity, I'd like to get a little more specific about your belief. Do you believe Jesus is God, the Father who was in heaven when Jesus was on the earth is God, and the Holy Spirit is God?

YoursTrue · Jul 7, 2021

metis said:
In order to understand how we use "Trinity" in the Church, one need to understand the concept of "essence", which was a concept used by Aristotle and Plato that was reflected in the early Church writings in Koine Greek.

Thus, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God, which makes them God even though there's a difference between them. It's sorta like if I said "I am of the essence of my ancestors" even though I am not technically my ancestors.

In the case of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, that essence is "Divine", an example of which is where Jesus says that if "you know the Father you know me" [paraphrased].

May I ask how you feel about the following scripture: "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

YoursTrue · Jul 7, 2021

metis said:
In order to understand how we use "Trinity" in the Church, one need to understand the concept of "essence", which was a concept used by Aristotle and Plato that was reflected in the early Church writings in Koine Greek.

Thus, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God, which makes them God even though there's a difference between them. It's sorta like if I said "I am of the essence of my ancestors" even though I am not technically my ancestors.

In the case of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, that essence is "Divine", an example of which is where Jesus says that if "you know the Father you know me" [paraphrased].

If I may, he didn't say that he and the Father and the holy spirit were equal in essence, did he?

metis · Jul 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
May I ask how you feel about the following scripture: "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

I certainly agree with this, which leads me to believe you may not understand what I wrote or maybe I didn't write it as good as I maybe could have. Again, the Trinitarian concept, from our point of view, does recognize that there is a difference between the Three but nevertheless They all are of the "essence" of God the Father.

metis · Jul 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
If I may, he didn't say that he and the Father and the holy spirit were equal in essence, did he?

The word "essence", as I explained before, is not used within the scriptures itself as that concept came from the Greeks and was utilized in the writing of the New Testament in Koine Greek in the 1st century. However, the word itself was not used but is implied.

All language is symbolic, thus understanding the idiosyncrasies of a given language is important. Even modern Hebrew is different than ancient Hebrew. My wife is from Italy, and sometimes she has difficulty taking an Italian word and trying to find the appropriate word in English for it.

The same held true when the scriptures were written, namely that the authors wrote them in Koine Greek and used that language that included implications that the Church in the diaspora would understand.

TrueBeliever37 · Jul 8, 2021

metis said:
In order to understand how we use "Trinity" in the Church, one need to understand the concept of "essence", which was a concept used by Aristotle and Plato that was reflected in the early Church writings in Koine Greek.

Thus, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God, which makes them God even though there's a difference between them. It's sorta like if I said "I am of the essence of my ancestors" even though I am not technically my ancestors.

In the case of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, that essence is "Divine", an example of which is where Jesus says that if "you know the Father you know me" [paraphrased].

Paul warned not to let any man spoil you through philosophy. He said the fullness of the Godhead dwelled in Messiah bodily. Colossians 2:8-9 (It's too bad people won't listen to what the word of God says.)

All that talk of essence is just man made doctrine, which makes it worthless. If it was truth it would be found somewhere in the scriptures. It would have been taught by the apostles.

TrueBeliever37 · Jul 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
Well, since there are various explanations about the trinity, I'd like to get a little more specific about your belief. Do you believe Jesus is God, the Father who was in heaven when Jesus was on the earth is God, and the Holy Spirit is God?

I believe there is only one God.

That one God is a Spirit, just as it says in John 4:24.

The Holy Spirit is another way of referring to God the Father - it's not another person. God said he would pour out his Spirit on all flesh. Joel 2:28 After all the scripture also says there is only one Spirit in Ephesians 4:4, and the Spirit of God is Holy.

The Messiah was the image (the body) of the invisible God. See Colossians 2:8 In other words, God himself took on a body that could shed blood and die. The flesh prayed to the Spirit for strength but that doesn't mean it was another person.

YoursTrue · Jul 9, 2021

TrueBeliever37 said:
I believe there is only one God.

That one God is a Spirit, just as it says in John 4:24.

The Holy Spirit is another way of referring to God the Father - it's not another person. God said he would pour out his Spirit on all flesh. Joel 2:28 After all the scripture also says there is only one Spirit in Ephesians 4:4, and the Spirit of God is Holy.

The Messiah was the image (the body) of the invisible God. See Colossians 2:8 In other words, God himself took on a body that could shed blood and die. The flesh prayed to the Spirit for strength but that doesn't mean it was another person.

OK, so when Jesus said he would send the holy spirit, how does that work? In other words, did he send "God the Father"? (P.S. I don't believe that God is a combination unit of 3 equal persons, just so you know.)

TrueBeliever37 said:
I believe there is only one God.

That one God is a Spirit, just as it says in John 4:24.

The Holy Spirit is another way of referring to God the Father - it's not another person. God said he would pour out his Spirit on all flesh. Joel 2:28 After all the scripture also says there is only one Spirit in Ephesians 4:4, and the Spirit of God is Holy.

The Messiah was the image (the body) of the invisible God. See Colossians 2:8 In other words, God himself took on a body that could shed blood and die. The flesh prayed to the Spirit for strength but that doesn't mean it was another person.

So this image prayed to ?? -- the real thing?? (Not an image?)

Which one is a Cult? A or B?

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aged ecumenical anthropologist

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)