Who else? As Jesus on earth ,who else is the Father? A false god ?
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Bro Rando
Member
God doesn't have a Father. God is eternal.
Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)
Yes ,how else should Jesus address the Father ?
God the Son ,does have a father( God the Father ) , according to the verse you quoted .
Why don't you put NWT ? this could confuse people that your quoting from a recognised Translation . Out side of the watchtower ,the New World Translation, is not recognised as ' Christian ' .
This won't read the same in your version sadly but here's Hebrews 1
5¶For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6¶And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, Oh God , is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God , hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13¶But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
1. It is impossible for it to be referring to the Messiah, because his kingdom is forever and he will rule forever. Luke 1:31-33
2. Whoever was handing the kingdom back was going to do it after their last enemy was conquered. If it was referring to the Messiah as you think, then he would have already had to have given the kingdom back, because he has already conquered death. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26
3. Many versions may say Christ is handing the kingdom over in that passage, but that word (Christ) is not in the original. Sometimes these type translations ( paraphrase or dynamic equivalence) tell what they think a verse means, and may even make it seem to be easy to understand, but simply mislead people because they don't get it right.
4. son of man can also refer to the descendants of man. And verse 24 you referenced says "he" - so the question is who is the "he" being referred to. I say it is man. Psalms 8:4-8
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus has a God because Jesus is a man.
His Father became His God when He became a man. (Ps 22:10)
Before that Jesus was not a servant and so was not a created angel as the WT claims.
Phil 2:6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.…
(and no it does not mean that Jesus was a spirit just as God is and then became flesh------"existing in the form of God" is a present participle and shows that Jesus stayed in the form of God while being a man. The passage contrasts His inner form, He nature, with His outer appearance as a man. This is probably why "form" is translated "nature" in many translations)
Phil 2 is about humility amongst equals. Jesus was equal to God in nature/form but humbled Himself. It is not about the humility of Jesus to His equal if He actually was not equal as the WT and the New World Translation say.
Do you say Jesus as a man had a spirit? That is what the WT teaches this passage means,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well they don't teach that but that is what WT has made the passage say by insisting that "form of God" means Jesus was a spirit. They did not take the participle into consideration.
Do you say that Jesus was not and is not equal to His Father in nature? This is what the WT teaches and what the New World Translation says. Then you are saying Jesus is not the Son of God and are denying that the passage is about humility between equals.
The truth is that Jesus had a spirit as a man and is equal to His Father in nature,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even if not in authority.
But He was exalted and given all authority in heaven and on earth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which of course are rightly His because everything that the Father has belongs to Him. (John 16:15) and Jesus is patient and the good Son who does not take what is His but waits to be given it.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I think it is referring to the Messiah because the Messiah is ruling and who has conquered death but death does not disappear completely until all are resurrected and judged and death is thrown into the lake of fire.
Since Jesus is ruling that means He is not subject to the Father even if everything He does is in accordance with the Father's will.
The Father serves Him by putting all His enemies under His feet but He is a man and His Father is His God so He gives the Kingdom back and subjects Himself to His God and Father "so that God may be all in all" including all in Him because He is a man and His Father is God, even if Jesus is equal to His Father in nature.
That does not mean that the Kingdom does not belong to Jesus since He said that "all that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15) And it does not mean that He will not rule over the Kingdom forever.
1Cor 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
I ask you again. How can the Messiah ever hand the kingdom over to the Father and yet rule forever? Once again - The scripture says there is no end to his kingdom. Luke 1:32-33
And also as mentioned previously. The Messiah has already conquered the last enemy which is death. So that would mean if it was referring to the Messiah as you say, then he has already handed the kingdom over. Because all his enemies are already under his feet.
And as stated previously - 1 Corinthians 15:27 does not really have the word Christ in it as you are trying to show above.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
The Messiah has conquered death by coming back to life but death still happens and will happen till the end of the judgement, when the second death is complete and death is thrown into the lake of fire and nobody else will die.
The Messiah sits on the thrown of David forever and is ruler of creation ( Luke 1:32,33 Rev 3:14)
Handing back the Kingdom to God His Father is something that happens so that Jesus, a man, is not all and in all and so that the Father is all to Christ and Jesus becomes subject to His Father. This would being back the state of affairs as it was in the beginning when the Son was subject to His Father.
However the Kingdom still belongs to Jesus because everything the Father has belongs to Jesus (John 16:15) and Jesus still rules over the Kingdom in the position He has inherited. But His Father is not dead and so that means His inheritance has come early and the rule is a co-rule as happened frequently in OT times with the Kings and their sons.
Phil 2 seems to be telling us that the Son did not refuse to become a servant and suffer and die even though He was equal in nature to His Father and so God has exalted this servant to Kingship alongside Himself and given Him, by inheritance, the name above all names so that we worship Him.
I has Christ in 1 Cor 15:27 because the NIV has it that way. The NIV is like that at times unfortunately.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Easy! Any of those beliefs that I don't like can be a cult!
Well, that's how mostly everybody else files religions.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Sorry you aren't able to see the truth of the matter.
Brian2
Veteran Member
1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Do you say that the Son does not become subject to the Father?
Do you say that the "Son" in this passage is mankind in general?
If so, do you say that man is not now subject to God?
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The son does become subject to the Father. But the son is not referring to the Messiah in this verse, but to man and the descendants of man. Once again there is no end to the rule of our great King. Luke 1:31-33
Yes - the son in this passage is referring to mankind in general.
God currently allows mankind freedom to make choices - good or evil. When he returns this freedom will be taken from man. Man will no longer be able to do as he pleases. God will judge each of us based on the life we have lived. We will no longer have any choice in anything.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Interesting interpretation.
Does that also include Jesus is humanity, since Jesus was raised back to life as a man?
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The Messiah was God himself. God had simply made himself a body to dwell in and sacrifice for our sins. The body was raised up a glorified eternal spiritual body. It was no longer a body like we currently have now.
Brian2
Veteran Member
It is true that the body was raised up a glorified spiritual body and it is true that it is the body of Jesus. (Jesus of course is not just a man that we see walking down the street. He, in the Spirit fills all things and is everywhere, including living in Christians Eph 4:10, John 14:23)
When you say that the messiah was God Himself, do you mean the Jesus was the Father?
When you say that "God had simply made himself a body to dwell in and sacrifice for our sins" it sounds as if you are saying that Christ was not a man and did not get resurrected as a man. Is that true?
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
1. There is only one God.
2. That one God is a Spirit - John 4:24
3 That one God is a Holy Spirit. (The Holy Spirit isn't another person.)
4. A Spirit doesn't have flesh and blood.
5. God looked out through the expanse of time and knew there would never be anyone who could live a perfect life and be that perfect sacrifice for man's sins. He said his arm wasn't shortened - he would do the job himself. So the Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and made a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for the sins of man. The Spirit was the Father of the body, so he could call it his Son. God is an eternal Spirit and can't die. But the body he took on could die. The body was originally the body of a man. But when the body was raised up it was an eternal spiritual body. The Spirit (the Father) raised up the body (the Son) and ascended to heaven and took the throne of God to reign forever.
So you could say the Messiah was both the Father and the Son at the same time. The eternal Spirit dwelling in the body was the Father, while the body itself was the Son.
So the difference between the Father and the Son was that the Father was the Spirit, while the Son was the flesh. But it wasn't two different individuals. God himself took on a body and shed his blood for our sins.
Brian2
Veteran Member
How is it that a spirit can be father to flesh?
God is the father of our spirit, not our flesh. ( Heb 12:9 )