Which one is a Cult? A or B?

[Brian2]

Read (John 3:16)

If Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation that means he was firstbegotten. It means he was created, made to exist or brought forth as though with labor pains.

FIRST-BEGOTTEN

furst-be-got'-'-n (prototokos):

This Greek word is translated in two passages in the King James Version by "first-begotten" (Hebrews 1:6 Revelation 1:5), but in all other places in the King James Version, and always in the Revised Version (British and American), by "firstborn." It is used in its natural literal sense of Jesus Christ as Mary's firstborn (Luke 2:7 Matthew 1:25 the King James Version); it also bears the literal sense of the firstborn of the firstborn of men and animals (Hebrews 11:28).

Would you like a few more scriptures?

The WT has decided that for their doctrines to work they have to revise the definition of "firstborn" and ignore places in the scripture where it is used solely in the sense of being pre-eminent. One such place is Psalm 89:27
Speaking of the man Jesus, He said:
Psalm 89:26He will call to Me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock of my salvation.’ 27I will indeed appoint him as My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
This man, who was not the first man born, is appointed to be firstborn.
So what do JWs do? Ignore that and speak of scriptures which are less straightforward or where "firstborn" is used as meaning "first one born". Unfortunately the WT theology is built on deceptions like that.
The scriptures also plainly tell us that Jesus did not have a beginning and was not created. I gave you John 1:3 and you have not replied.
John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, but did Jesus Christ create himself or was he begotten by someone else Before him??

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him:
ALL things means ALL things. Jesus was not created.
"Firstborn" is a word of pre-eminence here as shown in this translation.
Even if you insist that the passage shows Jesus is part of creation then so what, Jesus became a man and so stepped into the creation.
Trinitarians can use the passage as is to show that Jesus did not come into being.
JWs have to add the word "other" after "all" in order for the passage to show the JW teaching. Adding to scripture is not a good idea.

 

[Bro Rando]

So Jesus is in heaven now right?

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

 

[Bro Rando]

there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

 

[Brian2]

So Jesus is in heaven now right?

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

I cannot tell to whom you are posting.
However, what is wrong with a man being in heaven? A man with an incorruptible and immortal body?
Or are you saying that Jesus is not a man because He is in heaven now?
If Jesus is not a man now then what are you saying about 1Tim 2:5 and Acts 17:31 and the resurrection story of the man Jesus coming back to life? Are they wrong?

 

[Bro Rando]

I cannot tell to whom you are posting.
However, what is wrong with a man being in heaven? A man with an incorruptible and immortal body?
Or are you saying that Jesus is not a man because He is in heaven now?
If Jesus is not a man now then what are you saying about 1Tim 2:5 and Acts 17:31 and the resurrection story of the man Jesus coming back to life? Are they wrong?

You're a little off heh? I gave you a quote and because I quoted I'm wrong. You must have some visitors in your head. You tell me ARE THEY WRONG?

So Jesus is in heaven now right?

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

 

[Brian2]

You're a little off heh? I gave you a quote and because I quoted I'm wrong. You must have some visitors in your head. You tell me ARE THEY WRONG?

I had to guess to whom the post was for and I had to guess what it was about in relation to what I had said and what JWs teach.
Of course the quotes you gave are not wrong, it is what the WT says about them which is wrong. That is what we are answering here.
Tell me if what I said was wrong and why?

 

[Brian2]

there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

YHWH was our Lord in the OT and remains so.
Jesus was YHWH in the OT (Heb 1:10 compared to Ps 102:25, 1Peter 2:8 compared to Isa 8:14) and remains to.
There is one God, the Father because He is the source of His Son and His Spirit. But the Spirit is living and so is the Son and they have been around from eternity.
John 1:1 In the beginning............
This refers to the beginning of creation (Gen 1:1) the place where time began, the place before which there was only God. The Word was already there. The Word was not created because through Him all things came into being. (John 1:3) The Word did not come into being, the Word has always been.

 

[sojourner]

Which one is a Cult? A or B?

'Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.' (1 Corinthians 15:24)


A. Trinitarians Claim that God hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father
B. Christians Claim Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father

Trinitarians are Christian.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Which one is a Cult? A or B?

'Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.' (1 Corinthians 15:24)


A. Trinitarians Claim that God hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father
B. Christians Claim Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father

That verse is talking about man handing the kingdom of this world back over to God when he returns. God gave man dominion over the animals and the things he created here in this world. He put us in charge so to speak. He put everything under our feet. (except himself of course) So right now man has free will and we can do as we choose. (good or evil) However, when he returns we will no longer have free will. He will judge us as to where we spent eternity. Psalms 8:4-8

There is no end to the kingdom of the Messiah. He will rule forever. So he isn't handing the kingdom over to anyone. Isaiah 9:7

 

[Bro Rando]

That verse is talking about man handing the kingdom of this world back over to God when he returns. God gave man dominion over the animals and the things he created here in this world. He put us in charge so to speak. He put everything under our feet. (except himself of course) So right now man has free will and we can do as we choose. (good or evil) However, when he returns we will no longer have free will. He will judge us as to where we spent eternity. Psalms 8:4-8

There is no end to the kingdom of the Messiah. He will rule forever. So he isn't handing the kingdom over to anyone. Isaiah 9:7

Close.... it is the Son of Man that hands back the Kingdom to his God and Father. (1 Corinthians 15:24)

 

[Brian2]

So Jesus is in heaven now right?

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

Then why is it that JWs say that Jesus is not a man?

 

[Brian2]

there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Are you trying to say that God is not our Lord and that Jesus is not our God just as He was the God of Thomas (John 20:28)?

 

[Bro Rando]

Are you trying to say that God is not our Lord and that Jesus is not our God just as He was the God of Thomas (John 20:28)?

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

 

[Brian2]

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

You quote that and do not believe Jesus is a man.
Christianity believes Jesus is a man mediator.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

So Jesus is our God and the Son of God. How can that be?
It is because a son has the same nature as His Father.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

It is not that the Son looks like God on the outside, He is exactly like God is on the inside, same nature, and has the His Fathers glory.

The Jews knew what He meant when He called God His Father and said that He and His Father were one, that He was equal to God and was God. They did not believe Jesus was the true Son of God also, just like the JWs.

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” 18 Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

 

[Bro Rando]

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

You quote that and do not believe Jesus is a man.
Christianity believes Jesus is a man mediator.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

So Jesus is our God and the Son of God. How can that be?
It is because a son has the same nature as His Father.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

It is not that the Son looks like God on the outside, He is exactly like God is on the inside, same nature, and has the His Fathers glory.

The Jews knew what He meant when He called God His Father and said that He and His Father were one, that He was equal to God and was God. They did not believe Jesus was the true Son of God also, just like the JWs.

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” 18 Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

Why did Jesus perform many other signs? 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

 

[Brian2]

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

Why did Jesus perform many other signs? 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The whole passage is true.
Jesus is our Lord and God and Jesus is the Son of God.
If we want to find out the truth we should ask how is this possible and not end up denying bits of the passage to fit a preconceived notion.
The answers to how it is possible are in other parts of scripture.
We could start with John 1:3 which shows that the pre human Jesus, the Word, was not created.
We could go to Heb 1:3 and see that Jesus is the exact representation of God's being, His inner nature, and that He has the glory of God. (Something God said He would not share with another god Isa 42:8)
We could go to Psalm 22:10 and see that Jesus Father was not His God until He entered the womb of Mary and became a man.
We could go to Phil 2:9 and Heb 1:4 and see that Jesus has inherited the name above all names.
We could go to Heb 1:10 or 1Peter 2:8 and see quotes about Jesus from the OT which are about Yahweh in the OT.
We could go to places like 2Peter 1:1 and see that Jesus is called our God by Peter.
We could go to John 10:30 and see that Jesus and His Father are one (thing).
We could go to Eph 4:4 and see that there is one Spirit (not 2, not the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. There is only one Spirit)
If we want to find out about the Spirit we could go to places like 2Cor 3:17 and see that the Lord is the Spirit (in the NWT, "Jehovah is the Spirit")
We could go to many many places in scripture which are all true and piecing them together we could come up with the picture of Jesus which is true and which does not deny any of those scriptures.
I have ended up with a Jesus who is the Son of God and is equal to His Father because He is the Son and has the same nature, but that the 2 are one thing and the Father is the true God because His Son owes His existence to His Father. (But the Son was not created and God has been the Father, in whom is the Son and the Spirit, from eternity)

 

[John1.12]

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

Why did Jesus perform many other signs? 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

How do you sensibly read your translation ? ""Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.""

How wooden ,and awkward is that lol?

 

[John1.12]

there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

How should Jesus refer to the Father? He's not an Atheist .

 

[Bro Rando]

How should Jesus refer to the Father? He's not an Atheist .

Jesus refers to his Father as the only true God in (John 17:3)