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Featured Which one is a Cult? A or B?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Bro Rando, May 9, 2021.

  1. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know whom this post is to but I will give a quick answer.
    I did address the "firstborn" issue in my previous post.
    If you are saying that the nature of God is spirit you should consider Phil 2:6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    If the form of God, His nature, just means that He is spirit then this passage should make you think because the Greek grammar for "existing" is a present participle and means that Jesus was in that form and kept that form into the future even when He became a man. Jesus as a man had a spirit. I bet the WT never teaches that one to you.
    In fact it is because He had a spirit and existed as a spirit in a physical body that He was able to see and hear etc with His physical body. A material body even with a life force cannot be aware. Atoms do not possess that ability as you show us with your quotes. It is only the spirit that has that ability and is the spirit that is alive in the body and survives the death of the body, which is when it leaves the body and lives on. (Matt 10:28)
     
  2. Bro Rando

    Bro Rando Member

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    It proves that Jesus is not God since "Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power." (1 Corinthians 15:24)

    For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

    Are getting the sense of what Jesus Christ was saying? The Father and I are one doesn't mean the Son becomes the Father but rather this plea to His God and Father that, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:22)

    Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you SENT ME. I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.” (1Corithians 15:26)
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If you deny the scriptures that tell us that Jesus rose from the dead as a man and is still a man (Resurrection stories, Acts 17:31, 1Tim 2:5 etc) Men have Gods even though Jesus is equal in He divine nature to His Father. And the Father became the God of Jesus when Jesus was in His mother's womb. (Psalm 22:10)
    It is only right that God's Kingdom is given back to the one who is the God of everyone. Jesus is still of course the God of everyone except the Father, and you should call Jesus your God as Thomas did.
    Jesus of course still owns the Kingdom as the Son, because He owns everything that the Father has. (John 16:15)

    It's true, the Son is not the Father. Nevertheless they are ONE in more than agreeing about everything. They are "one" (neuter gender) meaning one thing.
    Believers are also one, we are one thing, the body of Christ. (all of us not just a select few 144000, which the WT claims to be the case on it's own authority and not according to what the Bible says)
    Christians are joined in spirit to Jesus and so are joined in spirit to each other through Jesus. We are one body with the one spirit. (It may be hard to see what I mean if you do not believe that humans have a spirit. The WT deception is indeed a tangled web)

    Obviously knowing the name of God does not mean that we become more loving. Knowing what God is like certainly can help however and being joined to Jesus (the one who knows the Father) in spirit means that we can get to know Jesus, the Son and so know the Father. (1Cor 6:17, John 14:23, John 17:3, 2Cor 3:17 etc)
    Certainly being sent by the Father does not mean that the Son has not the same nature/essence as His Father. If it did that would mean that you are saying Jesus is not really the Son of God.
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I certainly know what "agape" means as that's why I posted it.

    One characteristic of the meaning on that word in Greek is that it's an "action noun", namely that one just doesn't alone believe in agape but they also live it. And living it isn't just talking-the-talk but also walking-the-walk. Not only are we to be charitable to people within our own faith but we need to be charitable to people in all faiths or non-faiths as all people are the children of God. As Catholics, we do this and have done it for almost 2000 years now.

    I live not far from the city of Detroit, and the highest proportion of our regional Catholic charity goes to those who live in the inner city, and the vast majority of them are not Catholic. That's what true compassion looks like. IOW, it's not just self-serving "charity".
     
  5. Bro Rando

    Bro Rando Member

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    Thank you for your response. Notice this is a false charge from the Opposers of Jesus Christ John 5:18 Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

    Why do you say it was a false charge. Jesus was breaking the Sabbath and was making Himself equal with God by calling God His Father.
    ===========================================================================

    I say this because you have sided with the Opposers of Jesus Christ and that is the purpose of the trinity, to deny Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. (2 John 1:7)

    By making the false accusation that "Jesus was breaking the Sabbath and was making Himself equal with God by calling God His Father." You are now making the Son of Man into a sinner like your forefathers did.

    " Likewise, John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine, but you say: ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of man has come eating and drinking, but you say: ‘Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ (Luke 7:33-34)

    But in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” he said to the paralyzed man: “I say to you, Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.” (Luke 5:24)

    Who is Lord of the Sabbath?
     
    #25 Bro Rando, May 13, 2021
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  6. Bro Rando

    Bro Rando Member

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    Here's a few scriptures about Jesus being Firstborn even though you don't believe it.

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (Colossians 1:15) He can't be firstborn of creation unless all other things were created after him, right?

    "because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist," (Colossians 1:16-17)

    John 1:1 says, "In the Beginning was the Word," The use of feminine nouns emphasis the fact that the Word was created. When? "In the Beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) Words such as godlike, divinity, or deity are all in the feminine sense.

    Strong's Concordance:
    arché: beginning, origin
    Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: arché
    Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
    Short Definition: ruler, beginning
    Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

    HELPS Word-studies 746 arxḗproperly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e."the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

    Therefore Jesus Christ is preeminent which means ahead of the rest. He would be Firstborn of All Creation. (1Colossains 1:15) The other creations did not come before him but after him.

    However, Jesus Christ would become Firstborn a second time or Born Again. "and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him" (Colossians 1:18-19)

    So here we see Jesus Christ become the Beginning of Creation a second time, this time a Re-Creation as in a New Creation. (Note * Some translations use the term Creature, since creatures are creations.)

    Strong's Concordance
    ktisis: creation (the act or the product)
    Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: ktisis P
    honetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
    Short Definition: creation, creature, institution
    Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

    Colossians speaks about his deity and that he assumes a Godhead position which is what? A creation or creature.

    Strong's Concordance
    theotés: deity
    Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: theotés
    Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
    Short Definition: deity, Godhead
    Definition: deity, Godhead.

    Feminine nouns bring out the point that creation was brought forth, made to exist, or begotten.

    Hope this helps.
    Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

    Therefore, if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence. (2 Corinthians 15:17)
     
    #26 Bro Rando, May 13, 2021
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Whom are you responding to as the above doesn't relate to my last post?
     
  8. Bro Rando

    Bro Rando Member

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    Brian2
     
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  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Why say that Jesus was not breaking the Sabbath when He actually was breaking the Sabbath? The only reason you say He was not breaking the Sabbath is because you use that to show that what John said about what the Jews thought was wrong. You need the sabbath not to be broken so you can say that the Jews were wrong about that and so were wrong about the Son of God being equal with God.
    But it is true, Jesus was breaking the Sabbath but was doing so in order to obey the more important law of loving you neighbour.
    That makes Jesus a doer of the law and not a law breaker.
    It is a bit like when David was given the shew bread to feed his troops. That did not mean he was sinning, it meant that he was loving his troops and doing what was right by the law.
    It is like when a priest works in the temple on the sabbath and so breaks the sabbath but is not guilty.



    Jesus Christ came in the flesh. See I don't deny it. That has nothing to do with whether Jesus Christ came in the flesh, it is about who Jesus Christ is. He is the Son of God and so is equal to His Father in nature.



    Jesus exposed the hypocrisy if the Jewish leaders and showed that to care for your neighbour or even an *** that had fallen in a ditch on the sabbath over rode the sabbath law in importance.

    The son of man is lord of the sabbath.
     
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  10. Bro Rando

    Bro Rando Member

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    Excellent Context.. You wrote, "He is the Son of God and so is equal to His Father in nature." Let's investigate some scripture and look at a quote from Jesus Christ.

    Jesus answered, “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32) SO, If the Son was equal in position or nature wouldn't Jesus know?? But he did not.

    Another one. In the past I had many trinitarians scream and this one. "For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:5)

    What do you think?
     
  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    As with this scripture and others Luke 12:40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect.”
    Do you take that 100% literally or does it mean that nobody knows when the Son of Man would return?
    If it is the latter then why did the Governing Body set date after date after date for His return?
    But getting back to your question. Being equal in nature as Jesus is and was even as a man on earth, that does not mean that He could fly through the air or walk on water or heal someone at a distance or know all things unless His Father gave Him the power to do and knowledge to know. Jesus humbled Himself and lived as a man, not as a God man with incredible powers. It is only in His last few years that the Father gave Him the power and knowledge He needed for His ministry. One thing the Father held back is the time of His return. (Not that they would have understood it if He had given a date) But He was given what would happen before He came, the signs of His coming or presence.
    On that subject, if the generation of people who see those things will not pass away till all the things happen how come it has been 107 years since 1914. I guess some people are still alive now who were then but where do you draw the line?
    Actually I know where the Gov Bod drew the line. They decided that a generation was not going to mean a generation because they had been so wrong in the past about dates they knew this would be the nail in the coffin and the JWs of course follow whatever they say, even to the change of definitions of words.(I am very cynical aren't I) No more Watch Towers with "Millions now living will not die" (or whatever that was that used to be on the front of the Watch Towers.
    But I digress even if it is relevant to the thread.

    There is one Lord, Jesus Christ. Does that mean that the Father is not the Lord? It saws in the OT that Yahweh is the Lord. (Sorry I cannot find the places at the moment but that is what is said) So is there more than one Lord? No because Jesus is Yahweh along with His Father and the Spirit (2Cor 3:17 in the NWT).
    So anyway back to your scripture. Is the Father the only true God? Yes. He is the source of His Spirit and His Son who are in Him and have been from eternity. Does that make sense to you?
     
    #31 Brian2, May 14, 2021
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  12. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Just a correction here (nitpicking really). It was Russell and Rutherford who set dates for the end, 1914, 1925 etc. The governing body alluded to the the end coming in 1975 but never explicitly said it. Russell lead the group, and then Rutherford lead the group alone. The governing body was only established in 1943.
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that. It got me to check the dates up and found that it was not until 1971 that the Board of Directors was officially called the Governing Body. There was a Board of Directors before that however. This info is from this site: Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses | Avoid JW.org
    I have been pulled up for using Watch Tower (WT) which I was told was a publishing company so started using Governing Body (GB). Maybe I should be more careful but I think it is understood what I mean.
     
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  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    That is correct yes. The Governing Body are the ones who are considered the Faithful and Discreet slave at this point of time, so they are the ones making decisions about everything spiritual and legal. The reason why the term Watchtower is still used is because historically the group was called the "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania " as well as the Watchtower magazine being their most well known publication. I think that people might also be referring to Watchtower as the legal entity but I am not sure about that.

    What you mean is generally understood but it opens up opportunities for people to use those inaccuracies as "evidence" to discredit you.
     
  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Of course I believe He is firstborn, but I do not deny the use of "firstborn" in the scriptures as a term of rank and not just a word that means "first one born of a group".
    Israel is called God's firstborn son even though it was not the first nation to be born or begotten by God.
    Deut 32:8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
    when he divided all mankind,
    The other nations were also sons of God and a later son, Israel, is called His firstborn. Israel of course is a type of Jesus in parts of scripture and Jesus also is God's firstborn even though He was not the first one born of men.
    We can see this in Psalm 89:27 where the man that Jesus found (Jesus) is appointed to be the firstborn even if many were born before Him.
    The Watch Tower has to deny this usage of "firstborn" so it can make false statements about other passages. (The ones you will probably use below)



    He can be "of creation" because He stepped into creation when He became a man. His body was part of creation, His spirit is the part that is not created, just as our spirit is not created but is our life from God, and is more than just a life force. (eg see 1Cor 2:11 which shows that God's Spirit also is more than just an active force). The word "spirit" is another word which the WT denies the full meaning of in the scriptures. The pick out some verses where it is used in one way and use them to deny the other verses where it is used in another way,,,,,,,,,,similar to "firstborn".
    So anyway as I was saying, Jesus can be of creation because He stepped into creation. But of course we know that the word "firstborn" in this place does not mean "first one born" of creation because we know from other more straightforward scriptures that Jesus was not created, He did not have a beginning. We can see this in a number of verses, try this one for example, from the New World Translation.
    John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
    Jesus therefore did not come into existence unless He was created through Himself.
    In Col 1 the word is used to show Jesus position in creation, He is over it. This use of the word can be seen in Ex 4:22 and Psalm 89:27 where it even points to the word being used in that way.
    Psalm 89:27 I will indeed appoint him as My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
    Notice also that it is in the future tense. He "will be" appointed. If it was used in the way you suggest then it would be he "is my firstborn".

    The 4 uses of the word "other" in the passage you quoted do not appear in the Greek. The WT used to have those words in brackets but these days they have removed the brackets so that people do not realise they have added the words and have thus change the meaning of the scripture.
    dCol 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    The above passage is more accurate than the NWT and shows the meaning of "firstborn" as being something like the supreme one, a title of rank and has nothing to do with when He was born,,,,,,,,,,,,,since we already know that He did not come into existence.



    I don't know Greek but did some Latin at school and have looked at some things about the Greek language and know that words are given a gender, (masculine, feminine and neuter, as in Latin) and that does not change. What you have said above sounds like bad Greek and bad reasoning from the Greek language. There is no use of feminine nouns to emphasise the fact that the Word was created, it just so happens that maybe the nouns are feminine.

     
  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus body was born again but He already had the Holy Spirit. Our body is also born again at the resurrection.
    Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
    Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
    This is about those whom the WT say are the anointed and will become spirits. They felt the need to say "redemption from our bodies" instead of "redemption of our bodies". In the Kingdom Interlinear Translation the Greek shows "redemption of our bodies" and the English says "redemption from our bodies". (even though they did not use that word "redemption")

    There is another rebirth which happens to all Christians when they are born of God, and it happens to our spirits which become joined to Christ.
    1Cor 6:17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
    This happens here and now.
    1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments.…

    Wrong about feminine nouns again. They have nothing to do with bringing out the point of creation as far as I can see. Do you have any references for that?
    I presume you are speaking about Col 2:9.
    The translations on this site are better than the NWT and show a better meaning for theotes. This is a word which does not appear much in Greek literature and where it does it means absolute deity.
    Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
    From the NWT we have: Col 2:9.......because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.
    Theiotes is another word that can be translated "divinity", "divine power" "majesty" and it is what we can see of God from His creation. It appears in Romans 1:20.
    Theotes means what the quote from the Strongs Concordance says. It is God, Deity, Godhead as directly revealed, God's personality. (From The New Testament Complete Word Study by Dr Spiros Zodhiates)
    Vines Expository Dictionary if New Testament Words says similar and in even stronger terms.
    The NWT does not show this really, it downgrades it to what I show below.
    Col 2:9....... because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.

    Regeneration, as in Matt 19:28, means restoring of creation to what it was before, not creating it again.
    It is the same with the resurrection which is a restoration of the life of the body and a standing up of the same person who died as happened with Jesus. The WT wants to make that into a re-creation. The body will have to be made again and given immortality and made incorruptible but if we ignore such passages as John 10:28 and say we go out of existence at death then a recreation of the whole person would be required. That would make only a copy of a person. If God did that to you now it would be a copy and if He did that after you died it would be a copy also. Unless there is a spirit of the person that survives the death of the body (Matt 10:28) and goes back into a new body then the recreated person would not be the same person.
    "Soul" as appears in Matt 10:28 is another word that which the WT refuses to believe has more meaning than what is shown in Genesis 2:26, but which obviously does. In JW theology at the death of the body the soul dies and so they make up a "they live in the memory of God" to cover Matt 10:28. This is deceptive imo, but necessary to get around the obvious meaning, which contradicts the JW doctrines.
    2Cor 15:17 refers to what those in Christ are now. They have the the Spirit of Christ joined to their spirit and so have spiritual life in them which they did not have before being born again.
     
  17. Bro Rando

    Bro Rando Member

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    At least your beginning to use scripture and I am thankful for that.
    John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments.…

    Notice Jesus Christ has been born of GOD not that he is God. Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

    God has No Brothers as trinitarians claim....
     
  18. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    If Jesus is ' first born ' as you say , who is the mother goddess that birthed him ? And the word ' other ' here : //All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things,// is not in the bible. The NWT adds ' other ' to Scripture.
     
  19. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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  20. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    If Jesus is ' first born ' as you say , who is the mother goddess that birthed him ? And the word ' other ' here : //All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things,// is not in the bible. The NWT adds ' other ' to Scripture.This is how it reads in a real bible
    15¶Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him:

    17And he is before ALL THINGS , and by him ALL THINGS consist.

    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
     
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