If humans can't unite on religion, is there a purpose to religion?

stvdv · May 27, 2021

MikeF said:
Are there non-religious paths to self-realization, if that is indeed the goal?

The Wise (Saints and Sages) have declared that Self Realization is the Goal
The Wise have also declared that only a handful will reach this Goal in this life

Many people have lots of different goals in their lives
Spiritual Goal is to become free of worldly attachments
Worldly Goal is to increase worldly attachments

Buddha was not a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist
So, I guess it's not about Religion

Following the Spiritual Goal makes me more happy

MikeF · May 27, 2021

stvdv said:
My Master told us that of all the people on earth:
1 out of 1000 start on the Spiritual Path
from those
1 out of 1000 continue on the Spiritual Path
from those
1 out of 1000 reach the Goal

That's only 7 or 8 who reach the Goal of all humans on earth

So, I am not sure if "we" can reach Self-Realization (with or without Relgion)

Well, given those odds, seems best to chuck it all, not worry about it, and just live the best life you can live, as determined by one's self.

1213 · May 27, 2021

Link said:
To me, that answer is definitely no.
...

Why should there be? I think religions are organizations created by people. Not God’s way or God’s creation. God told us what is good way to live and that’s it. Everyone should be free to choose do they want to live accordingly or not. There is no need for religion, which is mainly only human organization, which purpose is to elevate some people to high position.

I think the same is with all governments. People should be free individuals, without earthly government to rule them.

URAVIP2ME · May 27, 2021

MikeF said:
Well, given those odds, seems best to chuck it all, not worry about it, and just live the best life you can live, as determined by one's self.

Interesting to say ' given the odds ' because those 'odds' were the corrupted religious leaders in Jesus' day.
To me, that did Not make Jesus as wrong, but that those corrupted religious leaders were wrong.
Jesus instructed Not to worry, Not be anxious, but can people direct their step _______
How would a psychopath live the best life he can live as determined by his own self ________
The 'odds' today is that internationally people can hear or learn about Jesus as never before in man's history.
So, once a person comes in contact with the biblical then they are responsible to decide what course to follow.
Thus, each person is free to act responsibly toward God.

URAVIP2ME · May 27, 2021

1213 said:
...........There is no need for religion, which is mainly only human organization, which purpose is to elevate some people to high position.
I think the same is with all governments. People should be free individuals, without earthly government to rule them.

In Jesus' day I find that the religion of the Pharisees was of human construct ( outside of Scripture ).
So, I would conclude it is ' false religion's ' purpose to elevate some people......
Rather than 'elevate' Jesus taught to 'serve' at John 13:15-16; Matthew 20:25-27; Matthew 23:11-13 (No elevated power issue)
Jesus connected worship with religion - John 4:23-24, as so does James at James 1:27 about pure religion.
Thankfully, God Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is Not an earthly government but God's government from heaven over earth.

MikeF · May 27, 2021

URAVIP2ME said:
Interesting to say ' given the odds ' because those 'odds' were the corrupted religious leaders in Jesus' day.
To me, that did Not make Jesus as wrong, but that those corrupted religious leaders were wrong.
Jesus instructed Not to worry, Not be anxious, but can people direct their step _______
How would a psychopath live the best life he can live as determined by his own self ________
The 'odds' today is that internationally people can hear or learn about Jesus as never before in man's history.
So, once a person comes in contact with the biblical then they are responsible to decide what course to follow.
Thus, each person is free to act responsibly toward God.

The path described by Jesus is not the only path from which to choose. There is still a gamble, that of all available paths, a path other than that described by Jesus is the true path. The path presented by Jesus came so late in human history, why should one assume that this is a valid path? What of the billions of people who came before Jesus had described and set out his path? Did billions of people live and die without any hope of reaching the goal?

As you rightly point out, I think a psychopath living his best life might not be good for everyone else. Perhaps it would be better to say that we should live our best lives, as we see fit, within the bounds of mutually determined parameters, agreed to by the members of society. Like the US Constitution for example.

John1.12 · May 27, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I believe that in Jesus' day the green door was Christianity and God wanted everyone to come to the green door and made it available to all.

But time marches on and the green door is no longer Christianity. I believe that the green door is now the Baha'i Faith, but since God has given us free will to choose which door we want to walk through, most people still walk through the doors of the older religions. I believe that eventually that will change and all the peoples of the world will walk through one door unite behind it, but it will take a long time since most people prefer old doors to new doors.[/QUOTE)

Trailblazer said:
You are free to believe that Jesus is the Only Way if you want to because you have free will, but as you know I believe that there is more than one way to God although the Way God wants us to know Him and relate to Him in this age is through Baha'u'llah because He is God's Manifestation for this age.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Jesus' warning no longer applies because it was given to people who were living in the past. The entire Bible applies to the past, not to the present. The past is gone and humanity is trying to move forward, but that is difficult to do when so many people cling to the past religions and insist that they still apply to the present.

Moreover, Jesus gave that warning because He knew that many false prophets would come in His name claiming to be Christ:
List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

That warning does not apply to Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah did not claim to be Jesus. Baha'u'llah came with a new name, just as the Bible had prophesied.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Jesus literally warns about the very thing you believe in . And no Jesus didn't give instructions Just for then . Most of what Jesus says was aimed at the future . That still hasn't happened yet . And :
Hebrews 13:8

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”

stvdv · May 27, 2021

MikeF said:
just live the best life you can live, as determined by one's self.

That is the definition of living a Spiritual Life

Link · May 27, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
And how is it, do you think, that "those who know truth" came by it? How can anybody say that "so and so is the truth, even though there's not a scrap of evidence for it?"

I can't tell you whether there's a purpose to religion or not, which is your question, but I can tell you that the reason humans can't unite on it is because there's nothing to base their ideas about religion on. Everything, absolutely every notion about religion held by anyone today, from the greatest religious scholar to strangest cultist, is based on nothing but ideas in human minds. And on those, humans will never agree. Each mind is, after all, unique.

I believe God would not have revealed a religion at any time if it was not possible for humans to come to agreement about it. To me, I believe proofs exist.

My topic is clear. It appears that we can't agree on truth because we haven't. But this is not true, it's an illusion. We can unite on the true religion.

Truth get's hard when the people leading religion all are people who take it as a game, and those who follow know that to be the case, but don't care to hold their leaders accountable.

Islam has not been properly presented for a long, long time. But I believe God would not have revealed it if it was not possible for it to guide humanity.

Link · May 27, 2021

The_Fisher_King said:
You seem to be suggesting that the great majority of humans in their heart of hearts know God/that what is required of them is submitting to God but would rather follow their desires - is this what you are suggesting? If so, is this really the case?

We been ingrained morality but part of morality we been ingrained is to seek guidance and act on it. If we don't seek guidance nor act on it, we are betraying our human nature.

Link · May 27, 2021

Hermit Philosopher said:
Dear @Link
The question of whether there is a purpose to [organised] religion, is a good one.

I really believe if guidance cannot guide everyone, then either some of everyone should not have been created or religion/guidance not revealed. This is different then to say, if guidance has not guided everyone. I'm saying the possibility of guiding the human race has to be there for God revealing a religion.

MikeF · May 27, 2021

stvdv said:
That is the definition of living a Spiritual Life

Cool, that was easy!

Link · May 27, 2021

sealchan said:
There is no such thing as a cohesive, final, consistent rational epistemology. Even the human brain would never stand for such a thing. What we have is a plurality of different ways of knowing truth.

This is true, but this doesn't mean we can't agree on a lot of truths and unite on Messengers sent by God.

sealchan said:
Religion doesnt deal well with proofs. Proofs are for science. Religion is about finding your subjective value in a creation which might obliterate you at any moment and not so much as far as a result. To accomplish that you have to entertain some really wacky, but in the end, revelatory stuff. Religion works...especially if it isnt taken literally and then used as an irrational club to make others fall in line.

Well, in case of Quran, it claims it's a book of signs, insights and proofs. But I don't understand, if God exists, you saying he can't prove everything about his religion including setting up proofs for his Messengers?

Link · May 27, 2021

Hermit Philosopher said:
Dear @Link
Yet, to ask if there’s a purpose to [different] faiths is to me a strange question, because faith is not about purpose. We don’t believe things because it serves us to, do we...?

I'm not saying if we haven't united on religion, religion ceases to have a purpose. I'm saying there is no purpose to revealing a religion on God's part if humanity is not able to unite on it. We obviously haven't united, my argument, is though, it's not because we can't. If there is a true religion, it certainly can be arrived at by humans.

Link · May 27, 2021

And the reason is because unproven religion, that is a just matter of taste of philosophy, would be on equal playing ground of all religions. To me, if God was going to reveal religion, he would make superior not only in practice of rituals wise, or how wonderful the holy book sounds, but in that, he would make erect it high with proofs and insights that humans from all sorts of backgrounds and understanding and knowledge can be guided back to God through it.

I believe we can be guided all together as a human race. I'm not saying it has happened or will happen.

Trailblazer · May 27, 2021

Barry Johnson said:
Jesus literally warns about the very thing you believe in.

No, that is not what Jesus was warning is about. You just believe that because you do not like what I believe.

Barry Johnson said:
And no Jesus didn't give instructions Just for then . Most of what Jesus says was aimed at the future.

That is true. Jesus was speaking to people of that time knowing that it would be read by people in the future.

Barry Johnson said:
That still hasn't happened yet.

You can choose to believe it has not happened yet but I know it has happened because all the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, as was clearly proven in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Aside from that the Bible proves that Jesus is never coming back to earth so the Christians who are waiting for Jesus to return are waiting for nothing. There is not one single verse in the entire New Testament where Jesus said He was coming back to earth after He ascended to heaven

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

Barry Johnson said:
And :
Hebrews 13:8

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”

That's true.

Link · May 27, 2021

What is interesting to me is the divisions that occur within the Muslim community does so despite Quran's ability to unite them on truth. This especially that Quran in 3:7 claims two things come out of Quran, clear signs from God which are the original mother of the book, and then ambiguities. People focus on what is ambiguous and don't focus to reflect on what is clear to them. According to hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a), "those who follow the best of it" refers to following the clear signs from Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) constantly forbid to follow what is unclear in terms of anything in religion but only follow what we have proofs and insights to.

Some people get so caught up on ambiguous stuff and never focus to reflect on what is plain, clear, and manifest signs. And Quran claims to be a clear book altogether, it's signs are all clear and it explains one another. Imam Ali (a) said nothing can clarify it's darknesses except through itself.

F1fan · May 27, 2021

firedragon said:
You mean religion as an entity uses sociology? My God. Thats not what I said. Let me say this once more.

Understanding religion/study of religion has two different approaches.
1. The sociological approach would deem that the "truths are subjective" and it stems from sociological foundations.
2. The other approach is the objective approach which is the theology is objective but influences sociology.

You should have just said that religious truths are subjective.
And no theology is objective.

I dont know whether the above clarifies it. I mean in studying theology. Studying religion. There are two very different, standard approaches.

A person can study religion objectively, but that means to not assume the supernatural elements that theists assume as the basis of their faith.

Trailblazer · May 27, 2021

Link said:
And the reason is because unproven religion, that is a just matter of taste of philosophy, would be on equal playing ground of all religions. To me, if God was going to reveal religion, he would make superior not only in practice of rituals wise, or how wonderful the holy book sounds, but in that, he would make erect it high with proofs and insights that humans from all sorts of backgrounds and understanding and knowledge can be guided back to God through it.

I believe that is exactly what God has done because people can understand and be guided to God through the Baha'i Faith. That has not happened on a very large scale yet mainly because most people are unwilling to relinquish the older religions and the belief that they are the only true religions. However, the proof that it is possible are the Baha'is who come from all sorts of religious backgrounds.

Link said:
I believe we can be guided all together as a human race. I'm not saying it has happened or will happen.

I believe that eventually their will be one common faith because that is what God has ordained, but it will take a long time before it is established for the reason noted above.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

Link · May 27, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I believe that is exactly what God has done and people can understand and be guided to God through the Baha'i Faith but that has not happened mainly because most people are unwilling to relinquish the older religions and the belief that they are the only true religions.

I believe Bahai Faith not to make a lot sense when it comes to how interprets Quran but Quran makes a lot of sense to me how it interprets the Bible. I believe part of the problem of disunity is we focus on ambiguity and not focus on what is clear. Bahai faith doesn't alleviate that problem as it heavily focuses on giving unclear and unproven interpretation of Quranic verses such as the clear verses about the day of judgment.

I researched Bahai Faith when I was in high school, but the main reason I stopped going deeper is that I read the interpretation of the day of judgment as well as the Bayan (by the Bab) saying Imams existed eternally and always existed and there is no way I can get myself to think God is that deceptive in speech.

If humans can't unite on religion, is there a purpose to religion?

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Free gift

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member