Why do people leave Christianity?

Trailblazer said:

Yep. I could not have said it any better. The original is lost.

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Indeed, but Jesus Christ came to get us back what we lost....God's original purpose in putting humans on this planet will be restored. (Isaiah 55:11) He never intended to take humans to heaven because he already had a large family who were created to live there. The material Universe and Planet Earth are for material creatures to enjoy.

Our unique Jewel in space...


With everything that could bring us the delights of our senses....





There are no 'accidents' here.....these are works of art....

Deeje said:

The material Universe and Planet Earth are for material creatures to enjoy.

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I know there is a lot of beauty in this world, but even though I am very wealthy by most standards I am afraid I will never see much of this world owing to my life circumstances.
I guess you cannot imagine anything better than this world but I know there is something better because I have faith.
It is the waiting that is so difficult.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

Trailblazer said:

I know there is a lot of beauty in this world, but even though I am very wealthy by most standards I am afraid I will never see much of this world owing to my life circumstances.

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Why do you assume that this life with all its troubles will continue? What is the point of wealth if there is no way to enjoy your life? The Bible teaches that God never intended for us to live like this....why do you think he made the world so beautiful? And why did he give us our senses, without which all that beauty would be wasted? If we couldn't hear, see, smell, taste and touch....what would be the point of living?
The Earth was made for us, and we were made for the earth...isn't it obvious?

If God doesn't take us back to Eden, then he is a failure....he can never be a failure at anything. (Isaiah 55:11)

I guess you cannot imagine anything better than this world but I know there is something better because I have faith.
It is the waiting that is so difficult.

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Faith is also what keeps me grounded....and its true, waiting is difficult.....but I know that the world as it stands now can never give us our heart's desire, no matter how wealthy we are.....there is too much heartache and tragedy, and the rulers of this world have failed miserably to provide for the needs of their subjects, whilst lining their own pockets and living the high life.

The three elements that have the world under their complete control are Politics, Religion and Commerce....a satanic trinity. (1 John 5:19) These have lived as leeches on the common people for thousands of years.....humans have been at the mercy of the wealthy leaders of all three aspects of this world for far too long.....human nature doesn't change with the times. Exploitation has always plagued mankind, and will continue to do so until God actively steps in to put a stop to the rot. I believe that this will be very soon. Time is running out.

The "something better" that I am waiting for is a cleansed earth, when God gets rid of all the elements of this world that cause us heartache, suffering and pain...only then can he take us back to the beginning....(Revelation 21:2-4)

I have no desire to go to heaven when my heaven is right here on earth, just waiting to be restored and enjoyed for all time to come...

Deeje said:

Simple...they are not leaving genuine Christianity, but a gigantic fraud masquerading as something Jesus taught, when he never did. Jesus and his apostles foretold that this fake kind of Christianity would surface because humans can never stick to doing as they are told.....they must embellish and enlarge it all until the original is lost. Like a diamond lost in a pile of broken glass.

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That's pretty much what Christianity morphed into. But for those of us who were born-again and lived in it, then grew, learned and changed, it's a step in the right direction.

I understand what you are saying, but sadly, most people lose sight of what GOD wants in the hunt for what THEY want.

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Nobody knows exactly what any gods want, but things written by authors long ago. We just take what we can glean and go on with life, trying to be the best we can be.

Deeje said:

Why do you assume that this life with all its troubles will continue? What is the point of wealth if there is no way to enjoy your life?

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My purpose in life is not to enjoy life; my purpose is to serve God. As Jesus said to his disciples:

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gains eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the whole world but we lose our soul because our soul will not gain eternal life, it will lose eternal life.

Deeje said:

The Bible teaches that God never intended for us to live like this....why do you think he made the world so beautiful? And why did he give us our senses, without which all that beauty would be wasted? If we couldn't hear, see, smell, taste and touch....what would be the point of living?
The Earth was made for us, and we were made for the earth...isn't it obvious?

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No, it is not obvious at all if you look at what Jesus said. Jesus did not say to live for the things of the flesh, quite the contrary.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And Jesus did not say to live for the things if this world.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Baha'u'llah reiterated what Jesus said about the world.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, pp. 328-329

Deeje said:

If God doesn't take us back to Eden, then he is a failure....he can never be a failure at anything. (Isaiah 55:11)

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God never intended to take is back to Eden because God does not live in the past or want others to live in the past. Humanity is always moving forward, not backwards. That is God’s way.

Deeje said:

The "something better" that I am waiting for is a cleansed earth, when God gets rid of all the elements of this world that cause us heartache, suffering and pain...only then can he take us back to the beginning....(Revelation 21:2-4)

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God has never intervened on earth except when He sent His Messengers. Why do you think that God is suddenly going to change His modus operandi and intervene in human affairs? There is nothing in the Bible that says that, so any such belief is just a gross misinterpretation of the Bible.

God will not be doing anything because He already did His part when He sent Baha’u’llah. Now it is time for humans to pick up the ball and run with it. Humans will be changing the world, and the process has been underway since the Coming of Baha’u’llah. This there is nothing to be waiting for.

Those of us who are Baha’is can see the new world order it slowly rising. The old world order is dying and a new world order is rising in its stead.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

Deeje said:

I have no desire to go to heaven when my heaven is right here on earth, just waiting to be restored and enjoyed for all time to come.

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Enjoying life on earth runs completely contrary to what Jesus taught. It does not matter what you desire, it only matters what God has in store for all of us when we die. You can continue to live in a fantasy or accept reality. All the other Christians are not wrong about heaven, nor was Jesus wrong.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Thirza Fallen said:

That's pretty much what Christianity morphed into.

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Yes...but Jesus and his apostles warned that it was going to happen. What happened to Judaism, was going to happen again, and for exactly the same reasons.....human ideas replaced God's word.

Jesus was tempted three times by the devil and he never denied the devil's claim to be ruler over all the kingdoms of the world. If they were not his to give, then the temptation would have been meaningless. (Luke 4:5-8; 1 John 5:19) He said that this rulership had been 'handed over' to him......who else but God could do that...but for what reason? Do you know?

If satan has jurisdiction over this world as its unseen ruler, then the world itself is going against the God of Jesus Christ......in fact James wrote...."Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God." (James 4:4) That is why Jesus told us to be "no part" of it. (John 17:14; John 15:18-21)

If you think about it, what branch of Christendom is not up to its neck in affiliated politics? Who among the "faithful" are not "friends" with their favorite politicians? Who among them will refuse to go to war in the mistaken notion that their patriotism is somehow meshed with their Christianity? Jesus taught the exact opposite.....this is how you can tell a true Christian from one who simply claims to be one.
Matthew 5:43-44...
"You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you".
How can you "love your enemies" with guns or bombs and missiles? (2 Corinthians 10:3-4; Romans 12:17-21)

But for those of us who were born-again and lived in it, then grew, learned and changed, it's a step in the right direction.

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What does being "born again" actually mean? Do you know? It is this notion, when misunderstood, that also distorts the Christian message. It doesn't mean what the churches have implied.

Thirza Fallen said:

Nobody knows exactly what any gods want, but things written by authors long ago. We just take what we can glean and go on with life, trying to be the best we can be.

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If we are Bible believers, then all we need to know to live a successful and happy life is to follow its directions. It's a user manual with all the perks and pitfalls clearly outlined......by following its guidance, we can't go wrong. Only when we do what "we" want, against what the scriptures tell us is a wise course, do troubles begin....and multiply.

IMO, only those who wander off the path have doubts and fears.....no institution is more culpable that Christendom for leading people off that path. They hacked out a path of their own and turned it into a superhighway where all who profess "belief" in Jesus Christ are saved, no matter what.....nothing could be further from the truth. (Philippians 2:12-13) We can stay on the right path, with God's help.

Matthew 7:13-14...
"Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."
Genuine Christianity is the cramped and narrow road.....hard to navigate in a world of opposition....but only those who stick to it will get to the desired destination. Those who choose the easy way are heading towards a dead end.

We have to be "doing the will of the Father" if we want to have an everlasting future in God's Kingdom. We are all in the process of either qualifying or disqualifying ourselves by the exercise of our free will. (Matthew 7:21:23)

That is what I believe the scriptures are telling us....

Barry Johnson said:

How so ?

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You said that God only predestines some things in our lives, not all. However, I showed that the things that God does not predestine - the small everyday things - can lead to dramatic changes in our lives. I am showing that if God has predestined some aspects of our lives, then it follows that he must also predestines any of the things which can alter those parts of our lives that he has predestined. And by extension, he has predestined those things which can alter the things which can alter the parts of our lives that he has predestined. And following this logic, it follows that he must have predestined ALL of our lives, since if he has not, then the smallest thing we are free to chose on our own can completely change how our lives turn out, thus ruining the predestined life God had planned for us.

Your response, about free will, our dominion over animals, the command to go forth and multiply, etc, does not address that in any way whatsoever.

Trailblazer said:

That all depends upon what you mean by hard evidence. If you mean proof, no, as nobody can ever prove that someone was a Messenger of God.

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So your "greatest proof" is not actually proof at all.

You are making a straw man. They either had good fruits or bad fruits. False messengers have bad fruits and True Messengers of God have good fruits

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

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Ah yes, the black and white view of reality, where anything bad is entirely bad, and anything good is perfectly righteous in every way.

You know the real world is not so clear cut, right?

It would apply only if every action was fated by God (predetermined) but that is not necessarily the case. Do you really want to enter the dark gloomy hallways of fate and predestination?
free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=free+will+definition

I am not saying that we are free to choose anything we want to choose, because free will has constraints, but that is not because of God, it is because of other factors that cause us to choose what we choose (e.g., childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances.) It is the combination of these factors that will determine what we will choose to do. Also, if someone else does something that prevents us from doing something (like catching the bus) then we are not free to do it.

Here is the dictionary definition of free will:

free will

1 : voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Definition of FREEWILL

Here is my own definition of free will:

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make some choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

Some things are probably fated to happen and the way we know is that they will happen no matter how hard we try to prevent them from happening. For example, if someone is being treated for cancer that is incurable they have a certain fate that cannot be turned around no matter what they do. However, some diseased might have been prevented if we had ‘chosen’ to do something differently

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I believe I've addressed this in my discussion with Barry. Please see my response to him in post 155 for an example.

As that quote I quoted says: “Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man.” So we have free will to choose between right and wrong, and we can make moral choices. That is why criminals are held accountable for their crimes in courts of law. Free will is assumed.

“Everyone wants to hold criminals responsible for their actions. This “responsibility” has its foundation in the belief that we all have the free will to choose right from wrong. What if free will is just an illusion, how would that impact the criminal justice system? Free will creates the moral structure that provides the foundation for our criminal justice system. Without it, most punishments in place today must be eliminated completely. Its no secret that I’m a firm believer in free will, but I’m also a firm believer in arguing against it when it helps my clients. That’s what we lawyers do (call me a hypocrite if you like, I can take it). Now, let’s delve into the issues and practical effects of eliminating free will.”

To continue: Free WIll, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System

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Now, let's be clear about something here.

I am not trying to say that we don't have free will, and I am not trying to say that we DO have free will (although I do place myself in the free-will side of things).

What I am saying here is that we can't have free will if some parts of our lives are predestined.

My reason for this is that something we choose with our free will could render the predestined bits impossible to achieve.

Deeje said:

2:17-21)


What does being "born again" actually mean? Do you know? It is this notion, when misunderstood, that also distorts the Christian message. It doesn't mean what the churches have implied.
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To decide to turn from sin and trust in Christ as personal Savior and Lord and to have a relationship with him, and making a public profession of that decision.

Thirza Fallen said:

To decide to turn from sin and trust in Christ as personal Savior and Lord and to have a relationship with him, and making a public profession of that decision.

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What born again means according to Jesus...

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Tiberius said:

You said that God only predestines some things in our lives, not all. However, I showed that the things that God does not predestine - the small everyday things - can lead to dramatic changes in our lives. I am showing that if God has predestined some aspects of our lives, then it follows that he must also predestines any of the things which can alter those parts of our lives that he has predestined. And by extension, he has predestined those things which can alter the things which can alter the parts of our lives that he has predestined. And following this logic, it follows that he must have predestined ALL of our lives, since if he has not, then the smallest thing we are free to chose on our own can completely change how our lives turn out, thus ruining the predestined life God had planned for us.

Your response, about free will, our dominion over animals, the command to go forth and multiply, etc, does not address that in any way whatsoever.

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Which verse says so is my point? Which verse says that God predestines the way you believe he does ?

Thirza Fallen said:

To decide to turn from sin and trust in Christ as personal Savior and Lord and to have a relationship with him, and making a public profession of that decision.

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That is actually a description of becoming a Christian and getting baptized....being born again is a whole other thing.

Jesus was speaking about the "elect" or "the chosen ones". What are they chosen for? Specific roles in the Kingdom.....These alone have "the heavenly calling".
"Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge—Jesus." (Hebrews 3:1)
Did you notice that Jesus has taken on a role in heaven? It is one that he did not have on earth.....he is called a "high priest".....His disciples also have a role in heaven that they did not have on earth.....they were to be "kings and priests" to rule with Christ in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

In order to be "born again" they "must be born of water and spirit".....water by their baptism, and spirit with adoption by God's spirit, as his spiritual sons. They must put off their bodies of flesh and be 'born again' as spirit beings in order to enter heaven. Flesh and blood cannot go there.

Its not just a internal transformation on becoming a Christian, but an anointing by God's spirit to fulfill a specific future role in heaven. When God's Kingdom "comes" then God's will can "be done on earth as it is in heaven". Those with the "heavenly calling" will rule earthly subjects.

The role of a high priest is to serve God by directing the worship of the people, assisted by his priesthood. This was foreshadowed by the Temple arrangement with the Jewish priesthood.

Heaven is where they serve God, but their subjects are on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Paul also called Jesus an "apostle" which means "one sent forth" and we know that Jesus was sent by his God and Father. (John 4:34; John 17:3)

Barry Johnson said:

Which verse says so is my point? Which verse says that God predestines the way you believe he does ?

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Are you really going with the "If the Bible doesn't say it directly, then it didn't happen" argument?

I mean, the Bible never states that jesus went to the toilet, does that mean you think he never went?

Trailblazer said:

What born again means according to Jesus...

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

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Are you sure it was Jesus?

Thirza Fallen said:

To decide to turn from sin and trust in Christ as personal Savior and Lord and to have a relationship with him, and making a public profession of that decision.

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You know, having " a personal relationship with Jesus Christ" is something that evangelicals came up with on their own. You won't find that expression in the New Testament.

firedragon said:

Are you sure it was Jesus?

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No, not at all. It probably wasn't.

filthyrottendirty said:

I was on the ex Christian sub and lot of people there seem to have only surface level knowledge of Christianity meaning they were either mislead by false teachers or they never truly understood the doctrine. Why do you think some people, when they don't understand something, they keep digging until it makes sense?

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Sometimes it’s just wrong. You don’t keep studying to make 2+2=8.

Tiberius said:

So your "greatest proof" is not actually proof at all.

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It is proof, just not hard proof.

Tiberius said:

Ah yes, the black and white view of reality, where anything bad is entirely bad, and anything good is perfectly righteous in every way.

You know the real world is not so clear cut, right?

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The real world is not black and white at all, but when it comes to true prophets and false prophets that is black and white because prophets are either true or false and three is no other option.

Tiberius said:

I believe I've addressed this in my discussion with Barry. Please see my response to him in post 155 for an example.

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That was a very well thought out post. You concluded with: “Of course, these aren't necessarily based on you. I don't know if you have lower back pain, or if you are a delivery driver, but the point is to show the kind of ways that a small decision can lead to large changes in your life. If God's plan was for you to die in a building fire because you can't get out because you are trapped by your wheelchair, then the conversation in the supermarket changes that. If God's plan was for you to die in a car crash during one of your delivery runs, that can't happen if you have a conversation that leads to you quitting that job.”

You just demonstrated how human free will decisions determine our fate. God of course already knows our fate before we make the decision and before the consequences unfold, because God is all-knowing. These things that you chose to do were fated to happen because they were written on the tablet of fate long before you were ever born, but God did not cause them to happen, you caused them to happen by making decisions and acting upon them. You chose to have that conversation in the grocery store that led to other things, for example.

For some reason I decided against going to the grocery stores as I do every Thursday night and it was raining and late so I had a bad feeling about going out and decided to go tomorrow night instead because tomorrow is supposed to be a clear day. By not being insistent about sticking to my regular routine I could have avoided an accident. I guess it was not my fate to go out tonight maybe also because I still had lots of posts to catch up on.

Tiberius said:

Now, let's be clear about something here.

I am not trying to say that we don't have free will, and I am not trying to say that we DO have free will (although I do place myself in the free-will side of things).

What I am saying here is that we can't have free will if some parts of our lives are predestined.

My reason for this is that something we choose with our free will could render the predestined bits impossible to achieve.

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I just explained above how free will works in conjunction with fate, and I hope I do not have to go over this again and again as I did with one of my favorite atheists on this forum, @ Nimos. He had the patience of Job to keep going back and forth with me.

Not to throw a monkey wrench into this, but I believe that God guides people in making their free will decisions if we listen to God, but if we insist upon our will, we might be fighting against what has already been fated for us. I do know that since I have been open to being guided by God my decisions come much easier, and usually I just know what to do and it turns out for the best.

Since I have scads of Word documents on the subject of free will and predestination from discussions I have had with many atheists over the years I am picking the best summary and posting it below.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
What God knows will happen in the future (what God foresaw) is not what causes it to happen in the future. God's knowledge is identical with what will happen in the future simply because the All-Knowing God knows what will happen in the future.

“The Prophets, through the divine inspiration, knew what would come to pass. For instance, through the divine inspiration They knew that Christ would be martyred, and They announced it. Now, was Their knowledge and information the cause of the martyrdom of Christ?......

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Human free will decisions and the ensuing actions are what causes things to happen and thus these decisions and actions determine what God already knows will happen in the future. We cannot deviate from what God knows we will do simply because what God knows is IDENTICAL with what we will choose to do (since God knows what we will choose to do). However, it is not God’s knowledge that causes us to do what we do; it is us who causes it to happen.

Fate and predestination is a whole different subject although it is related. You can say that we are acting out our own fate which has been predetermined by God, but not all of our fate is written in marble, since some of our fate is impending. There are two kinds of fate, irrevocable and impending. God never changes our irrevocable fate (even though He could) but our impending fate is subject to change according to what we do. For example, if we pray and supplicate to God to change our fate, God might change it, if it is in our best interest to do so. Of course, God knew he would change it because God’s knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before, during, and after they occur in this material world.

Again, what God foresaw is not what causes anything to happen. God does not make our moral choices, we do. Just because God perfectly foresaw what our moral choices would be that does not mean God made those choices for us.

Trailblazer said:

It is proof, just not hard proof.

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That sounds like an oxymoron to me...

The real world is not black and white at all, but when it comes to true prophets and false prophets that is black and white because prophets are either true or false and three is no other option.

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No, you're not biased by your beliefs at all, are you...?

That was a very well thought out post. You concluded with: “Of course, these aren't necessarily based on you. I don't know if you have lower back pain, or if you are a delivery driver, but the point is to show the kind of ways that a small decision can lead to large changes in your life. If God's plan was for you to die in a building fire because you can't get out because you are trapped by your wheelchair, then the conversation in the supermarket changes that. If God's plan was for you to die in a car crash during one of your delivery runs, that can't happen if you have a conversation that leads to you quitting that job.”

You just demonstrated how human free will decisions determine our fate. God of course already knows our fate before we make the decision and before the consequences unfold, because God is all-knowing. These things that you chose to do were fated to happen because they were written on the tablet of fate long before you were ever born, but God did not cause them to happen, you caused them to happen by making decisions and acting upon them. You chose to have that conversation in the grocery store that led to other things, for example.

For some reason I decided against going to the grocery stores as I do every Thursday night and it was raining and late so I had a bad feeling about going out and decided to go tomorrow night instead because tomorrow is supposed to be a clear day. By not being insistent about sticking to my regular routine I could have avoided an accident. I guess it was not my fate to go out tonight maybe also because I still had lots of posts to catch up on.

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And you completely missed my point.

If we are FATED to do something, then we have no free choice.

I just explained above how free will works in conjunction with fate, and I hope I do not have to go over this again and again as I did with one of my favorite atheists on this forum, @ Nimos. He had the patience of Job to keep going back and forth with me.

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You're explanation was wrong. You don't seem to understand that fate means, "This particular outcome is 100% certain and you can't escape from it."

Not to throw a monkey wrench into this, but I believe that God guides people in making their free will decisions if we listen to God, but if we insist upon our will, we might be fighting against what has already been fated for us. I do know that since I have been open to being guided by God my decisions come much easier, and usually I just know what to do and it turns out for the best.

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Here you say that God guides our free will, yet you've also told me that he doesn't interfere with our free will in another thread. Your position is waving around more than the tail on a happy dog...

Since I have scads of Word documents on the subject of free will and predestination from discussions I have had with many atheists over the years I am picking the best summary and posting it below.

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What God knows will happen in the future (what God foresaw) is not what causes it to happen in the future. God's knowledge is identical with what will happen in the future simply because the All-Knowing God knows what will happen in the future.

“The Prophets, through the divine inspiration, knew what would come to pass. For instance, through the divine inspiration They knew that Christ would be martyred, and They announced it. Now, was Their knowledge and information the cause of the martyrdom of Christ?......

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Human free will decisions and the ensuing actions are what causes things to happen and thus these decisions and actions determine what God already knows will happen in the future. We cannot deviate from what God knows we will do simply because what God knows is IDENTICAL with what we will choose to do (since God knows what we will choose to do). However, it is not God’s knowledge that causes us to do what we do; it is us who causes it to happen.

Fate and predestination is a whole different subject although it is related. You can say that we are acting out our own fate which has been predetermined by God, but not all of our fate is written in marble, since some of our fate is impending. There are two kinds of fate, irrevocable and impending. God never changes our irrevocable fate (even though He could) but our impending fate is subject to change according to what we do. For example, if we pray and supplicate to God to change our fate, God might change it, if it is in our best interest to do so. Of course, God knew he would change it because God’s knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before, during, and after they occur in this material world.

Again, what God foresaw is not what causes anything to happen. God does not make our moral choices, we do. Just because God perfectly foresaw what our moral choices would be that does not mean God made those choices for us.

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Irrelevant.

The causal mechanism makes no difference. The only thing that is important is that if we are fated to do something, we can not avoid it no matter what.

IndigoChild5559 said:

You know, having " a personal relationship with Jesus Christ" is something that evangelicals came up with on their own. You won't find that expression in the New Testament.

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I know. They embellished a lot.