Why do people leave Christianity?

[Tiberius]

Anyone can be wrong because humans are not infallible. Do you understand why what other people believe with conviction is no proof that I am wrong even if they are wrong? Logically speaking my religion is either true or false and it has nothing to do with what I believe or what other people believe about it. You need to determine for yourself if it is true or false, if you want to know.

Are you open to the idea that you could be wrong?

It eliminates anything that was not an impending fate.

Well, since you claimed that God also knows for absolute fact everything that is going to happen, we can eliminate all these impending fates and leave only the actual fate. Thus, impending fate doesn't exist, since God can instantly rule it out.

By the way, you didn't address the next thing I said, asking if you were withdrawing your claim. I take it that you are then?

It does apply to anyone but the caveat is that things happen to humans that are not what they willed whereas everything God does is according to His will and nothing ever happens to God against His will. The same cannot be said for humans who have things done to them against their will or outside of their will. Accidents and injuries are not willed by humans, they just happen to humans.

So then they happen without anyone's will? Just random stuff?

I am not here to win a debate or prove anything. I just explain things as best I can.

That doesn't have anything to do with me calling you out on changing the definition of will in order to prove your point. If you have to resort to that kind of sneakiness, your point isn't worth making.

It sure is different because God is different from a human.

And yet the end result - God made something happen - is the same.

It was still an impending fate until you decided to stay home, do the groceries tomorrow and just order a pizza for dinner tonight. What God knew would not happen had nothing to do with it.

If it is an impending fate, then it has some possibility of happening. Thus, there needs to be some chance that I will get the groceries today and have chicken for dinner.

But any action that would eliminate an "actual fate" is impossible. Me getting groceries today is impossible because that would mean I don't get them tomorrow.

So you are at once saying that it is possible for me to get groceries today and at the same time it is impossible for me to get groceries today.

You still do not understand, do you? God did not provide the help because God knew that John would not become a believer even if God helped John. So that is why God did not help John, because God knew God would not choose to become a believer even with God’s help. God’s help is no guarantee that John will become a believer, John still has to choose.

You still don't understand. Please read the situation again careful, particularly the bit where I say VERY CLEARLY that if God helped John then he WOULD become a believer.

To try to keep this simple, let’s just say that anything that would make it impossible for you to have dinner with your girlfriend would be locked out, but that does not mean that everything you do during the day would be locked in, because many different things could lead up to and make it possible for you to have dinner with your girlfriend.

But there are an infinite number of ways that the day could end up with it being impossible for me to have that dinner. And then bear in mind that we have to take into account the actions of everyone else as well. So I must be locked out of any action that would render it impossible for me to have that dinner, and everyone else must be locked out of any action that would make it impossible for me to have that dinner. That's a lot of free will that suddenly isn't free at all.

And that's the point I am trying to make.

Because it is what was fated by God to happen unless we did something differently, like praying.

In other words, "It's absolutely guaranteed to happen, unless it doesn't."

No, because all the way up until I did not get into medical school it was my potential fate, but as soon as I did not get into medical school that interfered with what could have happened, making it impossible for me to attend medical school. This is no different from your dinner scenario. All the way up to the time that you had the dinner with your girlfriend it was your potential fate to have the dinner, until something happened that interfered and made that dinner date impossible.

How can you ever have a potential fate that in any ways contradicts your actual fate?

Remember, a potential fate must have some chance of actually happening.

But anything that contradicts your ACTUAL fate has zero chance of happening.

Your claims about potential (or impending) fate only work if those fates have a chance that is both zero and, at the same time, more than zero. And that just doesn't work.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you open to the idea that you could be wrong?

I am open to anyone who wants to try to prove that my religion is wrong. I have listened to many such people.

Well, since you claimed that God also knows for absolute fact everything that is going to happen, we can eliminate all these impending fates and leave only the actual fate. Thus, impending fate doesn't exist, since God can instantly rule it out.

By the way, you didn't address the next thing I said, asking if you were withdrawing your claim. I take it that you are then?

I don’t know what claim you are referring to but if you want to eliminate impending fates and leave only the actual fate that is your prerogative. I don’t want to argue about it anymore.

So then they happen without anyone's will? Just random stuff?

Yep.

That doesn't have anything to do with me calling you out on changing the definition of will in order to prove your point. If you have to resort to that kind of sneakiness, your point isn't worth making.

I am never sneaky and I am not trying to prove anything. I am just explaining what I believe. Beliefs can never be proven, they either make sense to your or not, but first I have to explain them.

And yet the end result - God made something happen - is the same.

Yep, it is the same in the sense that something was willed and something happened as a result.

If it is an impending fate, then it has some possibility of happening. Thus, there needs to be some chance that I will get the groceries today and have chicken for dinner.

But any action that would eliminate an "actual fate" is impossible. Me getting groceries today is impossible because that would mean I don't get them tomorrow.

So you are at once saying that it is possible for me to get groceries today and at the same time it is impossible for me to get groceries today.

No, I am saying that it is possible for you to get groceries today and have chicken for dinner in which case your fate would be an actual fate. You could still get more groceries tomorrow.

You still don't understand. Please read the situation again careful, particularly the bit where I say VERY CLEARLY that if God helped John then he WOULD become a believer.

That is not my scenario, that is your scenario.

You said: I said that John would not become a believer if he doesn't receive help, but he would become a believer if he does receive help.

By your logic, God could provide no help, John will remain an unbeliever, and God would say, "See? I told you he wouldn't become a believer, that's why I didn't help him."

God knew that John would not CHOOSE to become a believer even with God’s help and that is why God did not bother to help. As a rough analogy, if dad knew that his son Mike was not going to choose to go to college, it would not do any good if dad offered to pay all his tuition. Mike still would not choose to go to college!

In my scenario it does not matter if God helps John or not, John still has to CHOOSE to become a believer.

But there are an infinite number of ways that the day could end up with it being impossible for me to have that dinner. And then bear in mind that we have to take into account the actions of everyone else as well. So I must be locked out of any action that would render it impossible for me to have that dinner, and everyone else must be locked out of any action that would make it impossible for me to have that dinner. That's a lot of free will that suddenly isn't free at all.

And that's the point I am trying to make.

That’s true, may things you might choose would make it impossible for you to have that dinner, but you are still free to choose those things. Bear in mind you would not know any of what we are discussing in this hypothetical scenario, and you would not know that making it to dinner would lead to meeting your future wife, you would just be trying to make a dinner date.

In other words, "It's absolutely guaranteed to happen, unless it doesn't."

That’s one way of putting it, yes.

How can you ever have a potential fate that in any ways contradicts your actual fate?

Remember, a potential fate must have some chance of actually happening.

But anything that contradicts your ACTUAL fate has zero chance of happening.

Your claims about potential (or impending) fate only work if those fates have a chance that is both zero and, at the same time, more than zero. And that just doesn't work.

A potential fate may or may not contradict an actual fate. If the potential fate never happens it contradicts the actual fate but if a potential fate happens it becomes an actual fate so there is no contradiction between the two fates.

You are correct in saying that a potential fate must have some chance of actually happening.

You are correct in saying that anything that contradicts your ACTUAL fate has zero chance of happening.

Potential (or impending) fate works if everything that would be necessary to lead up to the actual fate has a chance that is more than zero. If the chance of anything that would be necessary to lead up to the actual fate is zero then the actual fate can never happen.

 

[Tiberius]

I am open to anyone who wants to try to prove that my religion is wrong. I have listened to many such people.

That's not what I asked.

I am never sneaky and I am not trying to prove anything. I am just explaining what I believe. Beliefs can never be proven, they either make sense to your or not, but first I have to explain them.

And yet you had to change the definition you were using in order to make your point. That seems sneaky to me.

Yep, it is the same in the sense that something was willed and something happened as a result.

So then why do you claim it is so different?

No, I am saying that it is possible for you to get groceries today and have chicken for dinner in which case your fate would be an actual fate. You could still get more groceries tomorrow.

Once again, you miss my point and I'm starting to think it is deliberate.

I said that you decide to get the groceries tomorrow and just get a pizza for dinner tonight.

If it is your ACTUAL FATE to get the groceries tonight and have chicken for dinner tonight, then that eliminates any POTENTIAL FATE of you deciding to get the groceries tomorrow and getting a pizza for dinner tonight.

Let me make this as clear as possible:

The ACTUAL FATE eliminates the POTENTIAL FATE.

If you are 100% guaranteed to have the chicken for dinner tonight, you must have a 0% chance of having pizza. If the potential fate has a chance of 0%, then there is no potential.

That is not my scenario, that is your scenario.

You said: I said that John would not become a believer if he doesn't receive help, but he would become a believer if he does receive help.

By your logic, God could provide no help, John will remain an unbeliever, and God would say, "See? I told you he wouldn't become a believer, that's why I didn't help him."

God knew that John would not CHOOSE to become a believer even with God’s help and that is why God did not bother to help. As a rough analogy, if dad knew that his son Mike was not going to choose to go to college, it would not do any good if dad offered to pay all his tuition. Mike still would not choose to go to college!

In my scenario it does not matter if God helps John or not, John still has to CHOOSE to become a believer.

Now you are deliberately lying.

You said, "God knew that John would not CHOOSE to become a believer even with God’s help and that is why God did not bother to help."

And yet I clearly stated, "but he would become a believer if he does receive help."

Please note the words here. He WOULD become a believer if he received help.

I did my best to make it hard for you to miss, because you've missed it a few times now.

That’s true, may things you might choose would make it impossible for you to have that dinner, but you are still free to choose those things. Bear in mind you would not know any of what we are discussing in this hypothetical scenario, and you would not know that making it to dinner would lead to meeting your future wife, you would just be trying to make a dinner date.

So you are saying that it is possible to avoid something that is an ACTUAL fate?

So then it's just a potential fate?

That’s one way of putting it, yes.

Such a claim is meaningless.

A potential fate may or may not contradict an actual fate. If the potential fate never happens it contradicts the actual fate but if a potential fate happens it becomes an actual fate so there is no contradiction between the two fates.

You are correct in saying that a potential fate must have some chance of actually happening.

You are correct in saying that anything that contradicts your ACTUAL fate has zero chance of happening.

Potential (or impending) fate works if everything that would be necessary to lead up to the actual fate has a chance that is more than zero. If the chance of anything that would be necessary to lead up to the actual fate is zero then the actual fate can never happen.

Okay, then at least we are agreed that a potential fate can't be anything that would rule out the ACTUAL fate. No potential fate could ever have the slightest chance of ruling out an actual fate.

But the problem is that there are so many variables that ANYTHING can have an unintended consequence and rule out an actual fate. The only way to make sure that nothing could possibly rule out an actual fate is to eliminate the idea of potential fates entirely.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not what I asked.

Yes, I could be wrong. Anyone can be wrong, anyone except God or His Messenger.

So then why do you claim it is so different?

The difference is that whatever God wills always happens but what humans will does not always happen. I have been willing that my computer will start working the way it is supposed to but it still did not happen no matter what I tried to do. In other words, I cannot control everything by my will but God can control everything by His will…

Once again, you miss my point and I'm starting to think it is deliberate.

I said that you decide to get the groceries tomorrow and just get a pizza for dinner tonight.

If it is your ACTUAL FATE to get the groceries tonight and have chicken for dinner tonight, then that eliminates any POTENTIAL FATE of you deciding to get the groceries tomorrow and getting a pizza for dinner tonight.

Let me make this as clear as possible:

The ACTUAL FATE eliminates the POTENTIAL FATE.

If you are 100% guaranteed to have the chicken for dinner tonight, you must have a 0% chance of having pizza. If the potential fate has a chance of 0%, then there is no potential.

Why would I deliberately try to miss your point? Do you really think I like going in circles?

Okay, I understand now, I had forgotten about the pizza. I hope we are done with this now.

Now you are deliberately lying.

You said, "God knew that John would not CHOOSE to become a believer even with God’s help and that is why God did not bother to help."

And yet I clearly stated, "but he would become a believer if he does receive help."

Please note the words here. He WOULD become a believer if he received help.

I did my best to make it hard for you to miss, because you've missed it a few times now.

I am not lying, and I did not miss anything at all. I just do not agree with you. Let me make this perfectly clear. John will NEVER become a believer even with God’s help UNLESS John CHOOSES to become a believer.

John will NEVER become a believer even with God’s help unless he chooses to become a believer.

So you are saying that it is possible to avoid something that is an ACTUAL fate?

No, it is not possible, because once it has become your actual fate, it has happened!

But as I told you before, if your actual fate was impeding rather than irrevocable then it might be possible to avoid it is we pray or supplicate to God.

You can only avoid a potential fate since it has not yet happened. Let’s say your fate is to have a car wreck. Once you have had the car wreck there is nothing you can do to avoid the car wreck, but BEFORE you have the car wreck there are things you might be able to do to avoid having it, even if it was your potential fate.

Okay, then at least we are agreed that a potential fate can't be anything that would rule out the ACTUAL fate. No potential fate could ever have the slightest chance of ruling out an actual fate.

A potential fate cannot rule out an actual fate, but things that happen may or may not lead up to the actual fate. If everything does not happen that would be necessary to lead to the actual fate then the actual fate cannot happen. If my potential fate was to get into a car wreck and I decided to take the bus to work instead of driving to work then my actual fate could not be to have a car wreck.

But the problem is that there are so many variables that ANYTHING can have an unintended consequence and rule out an actual fate. The only way to make sure that nothing could possibly rule out an actual fate is to eliminate the idea of potential fates entirely.

A potential fate is simply something that might become an actual fate. You cannot rule out a potential fate if it is something that God has willed. For example, suppose that your potential fate (that which is impending but has not happened yet) is to get cancer and die. However, as I told you before, an impending fate can be altered by God if we pray and ask God to alter it, but only if God chooses to alter it. So if you pray and God chooses to alter your fate of getting cancer and dying, then what was a potential fate might not become an actual fate.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, I could be wrong. Anyone can be wrong, anyone except God or His Messenger.

Could you be wrong with your claim that God can't be wrong?

The difference is that whatever God wills always happens but what humans will does not always happen. I have been willing that my computer will start working the way it is supposed to but it still did not happen no matter what I tried to do. In other words, I cannot control everything by my will but God can control everything by His will…

Irrelevant. We are talking about things that DID happen.

Why would I deliberately try to miss your point? Do you really think I like going in circles?

In my experience, plenty of people deliberately miss the point in order to avoid having to admit they were wrong. They deliberately ignore what I say hoping that I'll give up out of frustration and then they can claim victory.

Okay, I understand now, I had forgotten about the pizza. I hope we are done with this now.

Depends. Do you concede the point to me, or do you still claim there could be potential fates that could eliminate the chances of an actual fate?

I am not lying, and I did not miss anything at all. I just do not agree with you. Let me make this perfectly clear. John will NEVER become a believer even with God’s help UNLESS John CHOOSES to become a believer.

John will NEVER become a believer even with God’s help unless he chooses to become a believer.

So you are claiming that getting John to be a believer is something God could not do?

No, it is not possible, because once it has become your actual fate, it has happened!

So "actual fate" just means something that has happened, and "potential fate" means anything that hasn't happened?

You know we already have perfectly good words for that. Past, present and future.

And are you also claiming that what is going to happen to me tomorrow ISN'T an actual fate?

For example: God knows for sure that tomorrow I am going to win $20 million in the lottery. He knows it 100% for sure. There's no avoiding it. So, is that an ACTUAL fate? And I'm not talking about once it has happened, I'm talking about me, right now, talking about something which will happen in my future. If God knows it will definitely happen, is it an actual fate?

But as I told you before, if your actual fate was impeding rather than irrevocable then it might be possible to avoid it is we pray or supplicate to God.

Everything you've said so far has indicated that "actual fate" is irrevocable, unavoidable. Now you are saying it isn't?

You can only avoid a potential fate since it has not yet happened. Let’s say your fate is to have a car wreck. Once you have had the car wreck there is nothing you can do to avoid the car wreck, but BEFORE you have the car wreck there are things you might be able to do to avoid having it, even if it was your potential fate.

Again, you seem to be contradicting what you've already said. You've presented "actual fate" as events that are in the future but can't be avoided. Like if God knows you are going to have the crash and that there's no way you can get out of it. Now you are saying it isn't actual fate until after it's happened.

A potential fate cannot rule out an actual fate, but things that happen may or may not lead up to the actual fate. If everything does not happen that would be necessary to lead to the actual fate then the actual fate cannot happen. If my potential fate was to get into a car wreck and I decided to take the bus to work instead of driving to work then my actual fate could not be to have a car wreck.

Yes it can. Let's use your crash example. A potential fate of me deciding to take the bus instead of driving my car would have ruled out the actual fate of the crash.

A potential fate is simply something that might become an actual fate. You cannot rule out a potential fate if it is something that God has willed.

If God has willed that it will happen, it seems to me that it's not just a POTENTIAL fate...

For example, suppose that your potential fate (that which is impending but has not happened yet) is to get cancer and die. However, as I told you before, an impending fate can be altered by God if we pray and ask God to alter it, but only if God chooses to alter it. So if you pray and God chooses to alter your fate of getting cancer and dying, then what was a potential fate might not become an actual fate.

But let's say that God KNOWS that my ACTUAL fate is to recover from the cancer after he intervenes. Since it is my ACTUAL fate, there's no way I can avoid it. And thus, even if I don't pray at all, God will intervene and cause me to recover from my cancer since it is my ACTUAL fate and therefore MUST happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

Could you be wrong with your claim that God can't be wrong?

The God I believe in cannot be wrong because He is infallible, all-knowing and all-wise. Anything less than that is not God, it is human.

In my experience, plenty of people deliberately miss the point in order to avoid having to admit they were wrong. They deliberately ignore what I say hoping that I'll give up out of frustration and then they can claim victory.

You are saying you know the motives of other people. I don’t think you can know them. I think you are projecting your need to win upon other people. I have no need to win anything, I am just having a discussion. Having to win is egotistical.

Depends. Do you concede the point to me, or do you still claim there could be potential fates that could eliminate the chances of an actual fate?

I don’t even know if we are talking about the same things anymore. A potential fate is a fate that might happen, and if it never happens it cannot eliminate an actual fate.

So you are claiming that getting John to be a believer is something God could not do? ‘

No, I am claiming that getting John to be a believer is something God would not do. God could get John to be a believer but God would not do it.

So "actual fate" just means something that has happened, and "potential fate" means anything that hasn't happened?

You got it. A fate becomes an actual fate when it happens but till then it is a potential (impending) fate.

You know we already have perfectly good words for that. Past, present and future.

And are you also claiming that what is going to happen to me tomorrow ISN'T an actual fate?

It will become your actual fate when it happens.

For example: God knows for sure that tomorrow I am going to win $20 million in the lottery. He knows it 100% for sure. There's no avoiding it. So, is that an ACTUAL fate? And I'm not talking about once it has happened, I'm talking about me, right now, talking about something which will happen in my future. If God knows it will definitely happen, is it an actual fate?

If it will definitely happen it is an irrevocable fate that God knows will happen and God will not alter it. It will not be your actual fate until it happens.

Everything you've said so far has indicated that "actual fate" is irrevocable, unavoidable. Now you are saying it isn't?

You are mixing apples and oranges. Once something has happened it becomes your actual fate. Before it happens it can be either impending (conditional) or irrevocable (fixed). Am impending fate is a fate that might happen depending upon what you do and an irrevocable fate is a fate that will happen no matter what you do. Once either one of these kinds of fates happens it becomes an actual fate.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

Again, you seem to be contradicting what you've already said. You've presented "actual fate" as events that are in the future but can't be avoided. Like if God knows you are going to have the crash and that there's no way you can get out of it. Now you are saying it isn't actual fate until after it's happened.

No, go back and read what I just said above. It is an irrevocable fate that cannot be avoided because God will never alter it no matter what you do – it is fixed, written marble. It is not because God knows that you will have the car crash, it is because God has decreed that you will have a car crash, but of course God knows what He has decreed.

Yes it can. Let's use your crash example. A potential fate of me deciding to take the bus instead of driving my car would have ruled out the actual fate of the crash.

Here is where you are still confused. Your deciding to take the bus instead of driving your car is not a potential fate, it is an event that will rule out the possibility of your having a car crash. But if you decide to take the bus instead of driving your car that is your actual fate as soon as you take the bus.

If God has willed that it will happen, it seems to me that it's not just a POTENTIAL fate...

A potential fate is something that might become an actual fate or not; it has the potential to become an actual fate. This is an impending or conditional fate because it has not yet happened yet and whether it will happen or not depends upon what you do (it is conditional upon what you do). It is something God has decreed but it is malleable, not set in stone, so it may or may not happen depending upon (a) what you do to try to avert it and (b) whether God decides to alter it owing to your actions.

But let's say that God KNOWS that my ACTUAL fate is to recover from the cancer after he intervenes. Since it is my ACTUAL fate, there's no way I can avoid it. And thus, even if I don't pray at all, God will intervene and cause me to recover from my cancer since it is my ACTUAL fate and therefore MUST happen.

If God decided to intervene even without you praying then you will recover from the cancer. In that case dying of cancer was never your irrevocable fate, because if it had been an irrevocable fate, God would not have altered it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Could you be wrong with your claim that God can't be wrong?

Of course she could be wrong about that. So can I. It's up to you to investigate whether there is a God, and whether He couldn't be wrong. Probably you've already decided. It's hard to change anybody's mind, that the way humans are.

 

[Tiberius]

The God I believe in cannot be wrong because He is infallible, all-knowing and all-wise. Anything less than that is not God, it is human.

But since you are a human, your opinion that God is infallible could be flawed, and thus God may not have those qualities.

You are saying you know the motives of other people. I don’t think you can know them. I think you are projecting your need to win upon other people. I have no need to win anything, I am just having a discussion. Having to win is egotistical.

I've seen people refuse to grasp the simplest of ideas even when explained in many different ways by many different people. Either they are incredibly stupid, or the are deliberately refusing to acknowledge the point.

I don’t even know if we are talking about the same things anymore. A potential fate is a fate that might happen, and if it never happens it cannot eliminate an actual fate.

As I've already explained...

An potential fate is something that has a chance greater than zero of happening, right?

So let's say it's potential fate that I could die today. Could be hit by a car, have a heart attack, a brain aneurysm, shot by some lunatic, fall and hit my head in the shower, I could jump off a cliff, any number of things which would result in my dying today.

Now, let's say it is my ACTUAL fate that I live to be 102 years old. That's another 60 years away. Since it is my ACTUAL fate, then it has a 100% of happening, right?

Now, if I have a 100% chance of living to 102 years old (because it's my ACTUAL FATE, and let's not forget, God has foreseen that I will live to 102 years old, and he's never wrong), then that means that the chance of anything happening that would prevent me from living to 102 years old is zero. There is zero chance that anything could happen that would stop me living to 102.

Me dying today would stop me from living to 102 years old.

Therefore, since living to 102 years old is my ACTUAL FATE, and since there is a zero chance of anything happening that would prevent that, and since me dying today would prevent that, then there is ZERO chance of me dying today.

However, if the chance of me dying today is 0%, and if any potential fate must have a greater than zero chance of happening, then me dying today can NOT possibly be a potential fate.

So, to recap, if God knows what my ACTUAL fate is, then there can not be any potential fates that contradict it, since by contradicting my ACTUAL fate, they have lost all potential to ever happen.

No, I am claiming that getting John to be a believer is something God would not do. God could get John to be a believer but God would not do it.

That's not what you said in post 227. There, you said, "If God knows for a fact that John is going to decide that he will become a believer if God helps John along, then God will help John along."

You got it. A fate becomes an actual fate when it happens but till then it is a potential (impending) fate.

Sounds like you're just inventing new words and an excessively complicated way of talking about stuff we already have perfectly adequate language for.

It will become your actual fate when it happens.

In other words, once it has happened, it will be something that has happened.

Wow. That's a whole lot of words to say absolutely nothing. In related news, if I'm sitting down, then I'm not standing up. If I'm asleep, then I'm not awake.

If it will definitely happen it is an irrevocable fate that God knows will happen and God will not alter it. It will not be your actual fate until it happens.

And see my big example up earlier in this post. If we are talking about events in the future which are predestined, then EVERYTHING must be predestined.

You are mixing apples and oranges. Once something has happened it becomes your actual fate. Before it happens it can be either impending (conditional) or irrevocable (fixed). Am impending fate is a fate that might happen depending upon what you do and an irrevocable fate is a fate that will happen no matter what you do. Once either one of these kinds of fates happens it becomes an actual fate.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

My point still stands. If something is irrevocable fate, then everything must be irrevocable.

Also, remember how I said you were just needlessly complicating things by using this kind of language? This is what I meant. You were using these terms and it was unclear how you were using them. For example, you were using "actual fate" to refer to things only once they had happened, and I had been under the impression that you had meant it to be what you are here calling irrevocable fate.

No, go back and read what I just said above. It is an irrevocable fate that cannot be avoided because God will never alter it no matter what you do – it is fixed, written marble. It is not because God knows that you will have the car crash, it is because God has decreed that you will have a car crash, but of course God knows what He has decreed.

Here is where you are still confused. Your deciding to take the bus instead of driving your car is not a potential fate, it is an event that will rule out the possibility of your having a car crash. But if you decide to take the bus instead of driving your car that is your actual fate as soon as you take the bus.

See? Another misunderstanding because of this needless overcomplication of language.

A potential fate is something that might become an actual fate or not; it has the potential to become an actual fate. This is an impending or conditional fate because it has not yet happened yet and whether it will happen or not depends upon what you do (it is conditional upon what you do). It is something God has decreed but it is malleable, not set in stone, so it may or may not happen depending upon (a) what you do to try to avert it and (b) whether God decides to alter it owing to your actions.

If God decided to intervene even without you praying then you will recover from the cancer. In that case dying of cancer was never your irrevocable fate, because if it had been an irrevocable fate, God would not have altered it.

And two more examples.

In any case, please read (irrevocable fate) wherever I have used Actual fate in earlier posts, since that's what I thought you meant.

And also remember that for most people, what you call irrevocable fate, they just call fate, without the need for a bunch of different modifiers in front of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

But since you are a human, your opinion that God is infallible could be flawed, and thus God may not have those qualities.

Any human could be wrong about what they believe but if God if not infallible why call Him God?

I've seen people refuse to grasp the simplest of ideas even when explained in many different ways by many different people. Either they are incredibly stupid, or the are deliberately refusing to acknowledge the point.

Maybe they are just not as smart as you expect them to be, or maybe tou did not explain it as well as you thought you did.

As I've already explained...
An potential fate is something that has a chance greater than zero of happening, right?

So let's say it's potential fate that I could die today. Could be hit by a car, have a heart attack, a brain aneurysm, shot by some lunatic, fall and hit my head in the shower, I could jump off a cliff, any number of things which would result in my dying today.

Now, let's say it is my ACTUAL fate that I live to be 102 years old. That's another 60 years away. Since it is my ACTUAL fate, then it has a 100% of happening, right?

Now, if I have a 100% chance of living to 102 years old (because it's my ACTUAL FATE, and let's not forget, God has foreseen that I will live to 102 years old, and he's never wrong), then that means that the chance of anything happening that would prevent me from living to 102 years old is zero. There is zero chance that anything could happen that would stop me living to 102.

Me dying today would stop me from living to 102 years old.

Therefore, since living to 102 years old is my ACTUAL FATE, and since there is a zero chance of anything happening that would prevent that, and since me dying today would prevent that, then there is ZERO chance of me dying today.

However, if the chance of me dying today is 0%, and if any potential fate must have a greater than zero chance of happening, then me dying today can NOT possibly be a potential fate.

So, to recap, if God knows what my ACTUAL fate is, then there can not be any potential fates that contradict it, since by contradicting my ACTUAL fate, they have lost all potential to ever happen.

That’s all true.

That's not what you said in post 227. There, you said, "If God knows for a fact that John is going to decide that he will become a believer if God helps John along, then God will help John along."

That is what I said and that means that God would only help John along if God knew that John would DECIDE to become a believer of his own free will. God would not GET John to become a believer against John’s free will.

And see my big example up earlier in this post. If we are talking about events in the future which are predestined, then EVERYTHING must be predestined.

I do not know what you mean by everything.

Also, remember how I said you were just needlessly complicating things by using this kind of language? This is what I meant. You were using these terms and it was unclear how you were using them. For example, you were using "actual fate" to refer to things only once they had happened, and I had been under the impression that you had meant it to be what you are here calling irrevocable fate.

My point still stands. If something is irrevocable fate, then everything must be irrevocable.

I do not know what you mean by everything.

Also, remember how I said you were just needlessly complicating things by using this kind of language? This is what I meant. You were using these terms and it was unclear how you were using them. For example, you were using "actual fate" to refer to things only once they had happened, and I had been under the impression that you had meant it to be what you are here calling irrevocable fate.

See? Another misunderstanding because of this needless overcomplication of language.

That’s true, but I don’t know what to do about it.

In any case, please read (irrevocable fate) wherever I have used Actual fate in earlier posts, since that's what I thought you meant.

And also remember that for most people, what you call irrevocable fate, they just call fate, without the need for a bunch of different modifiers in front of it.

To try to keep this as simple as possible, an irrevocable fate is what God has decreed and it cannot be altered. It will become your actual fate when it happens. An impending fate is something that God has decreed that can be altered by prayer and entreaty, if God chooses to alter it. If God decides to alter your impending fate it will never become your actual fate, but if God does not choose to alter your impending fate it will become your actual fate.

 

[Tiberius]

Any human could be wrong about what they believe but if God if not infallible why call Him God?

Sounds like you are just trying to define your beliefs into being correct. I'm not buying it.

Maybe they are just not as smart as you expect them to be, or maybe tou did not explain it as well as you thought you did.

Uh, no. The discussion I'm referring to was about evolution. You try telling people that individuals don't evolve, it's populations that evolve over many generations, and they still keep coming back with, "But evolution can't happen because it takes millions of years and animals don't live for millions of years!"

That’s all true.

And, taking into account the poor communication we had about what you actually meant by "actual fate", I'm glad you can finally agree with me.

That is what I said and that means that God would only help John along if God knew that John would DECIDE to become a believer of his own free will. God would not GET John to become a believer against John’s free will.

Totally irrelevant. I never mentioned that.

I said that one of two things will happen.

• God will give John a helping hand and John will become a believer.
• God will not give John a helping hand and John will not become a believer.

Since you said that God will give a helping hand if it will lead to the person becoming a believer, but will not give a helping hand if the person will not become a believer. However, in this case, BOTH of these statements are true. So God, by your logic, has to both give a helping hand and NOT give it at the same time.

I do not know what you mean by everything.

Every single event that happens must be predestined.

I do not know what you mean by everything.

Every single event that happens must be predestined.

That’s true, but I don’t know what to do about it.

Clearly define what you mean by the terms you use.

To try to keep this as simple as possible, an irrevocable fate is what God has decreed and it cannot be altered. It will become your actual fate when it happens. An impending fate is something that God has decreed that can be altered by prayer and entreaty, if God chooses to alter it. If God decides to alter your impending fate it will never become your actual fate, but if God does not choose to alter your impending fate it will become your actual fate.

Now, here's a question...

If something is a impending fate, it might happen, but then again, God might decide to change it. Now tell me: Does God know in advance if he is going to change it or not?

 

[Trailblazer]

Sounds like you are just trying to define your beliefs into being correct. I'm not buying it.

They are correct to me, but you should not buy any product until you know what you are buying.

Uh, no. The discussion I'm referring to was about evolution. You try telling people that individuals don't evolve, it's populations that evolve over many generations, and they still keep coming back with, "But evolution can't happen because it takes millions of years and animals don't live for millions of years!"

Sorry, science is out of my league. I’ll take your word for it, as I only know enough about evolution to be dangerous.

Totally irrelevant. I never mentioned that.
I said that one of two things will happen.

· God will give John a helping hand and John will become a believer.
· God will not give John a helping hand and John will not become a believer.

Since you said that God will give a helping hand if it will lead to the person becoming a believer, but will not give a helping hand if the person will not become a believer. However, in this case, BOTH of these statements are true. So God, by your logic, has to both give a helping hand and NOT give it at the same time.

I have no idea what you are talking about. How could God both give a helping hand and NOT give it at the same time?

Here are the possibilities:

· God will give John a helping hand and John will choose to become a believer.
· God will not give John a helping hand and John will choose to become a believer.
· God will give John a helping hand and John will not choose become a believer.
· God will not give John a helping hand and John will not choose to become a believer.

Like I said before, if God knows John is on the fence between believer and nonbeliever that is when God might step in and give John a helping hand but if God knows John will never choose to become a believer (even with the helping hand) God will not offer a helping hand. Bear in mind that God knows who will and will not choose to become a believer because God has foreknowledge.

Every single event that happens must be predestined.

Again, only if you believe in predestination and if you do you would also have to believe in God because God would be the one determining our destiny.

Now, here's a question...

If something is a impending fate, it might happen, but then again, God might decide to change it. Now tell me: Does God know in advance if he is going to change it or not?

There is no such thing as “in advance” for God because God’s knowledge surrounds the realities of all things all the time, simultaneously, so God knows that it will be changed before it is changed in this realm of existence.

 

[Tiberius]

I have no idea what you are talking about. How could God both give a helping hand and NOT give it at the same time?

No idea, but that's the contradiction that your claims have lead us to. That suggests to me that your claims are incorrect. This is essentially Proof by contradiction, although I'm using it here in somewhat of the opposite way: I assume that your claims are true, I follow those claims to their logical conclusion and show that it leads to a contradiction, and then conclude that because of this, the original claims must be false.

Here are the possibilities:

· God will give John a helping hand and John will choose to become a believer.
· God will not give John a helping hand and John will choose to become a believer.
· God will give John a helping hand and John will not choose become a believer.
· God will not give John a helping hand and John will not choose to become a believer.

Like I said before, if God knows John is on the fence between believer and nonbeliever that is when God might step in and give John a helping hand but if God knows John will never choose to become a believer (even with the helping hand) God will not offer a helping hand. Bear in mind that God knows who will and will not choose to become a believer because God has foreknowledge.

Well, if God knows that John will become a believer, and if God also knows that John will only become a believer if God helps, then God knows that he must help. Thus, God has no free will. God's knowledge that John WILL become a believer means there is only one possible outcome - God must step in to provide that help. And if there is only one possible outcome, then there is no choice. Thus, God has no free will.

Also, it's a bit like a doctor trying to decide whether he will operate on the dying man who needs an operation to survive. The doctor could say, "I don't want to operate on him if he's going to die, since that is a waste of time and resources. So I will only operate on him if he is going to live."

But if the doctor operates and the patient lives, then we can say the doctor made the right choice. And yet if the doctor decides NOT to operate and the patient dies, then we can also say that the doctor made the right choice according to the criteria the doctor had for making the decision.

Again, only if you believe in predestination and if you do you would also have to believe in God because God would be the one determining our destiny.

Irrelevant. It does not matter what the mechanism for predestination is. It could be God, and it could be something else.

There is no such thing as “in advance” for God because God’s knowledge surrounds the realities of all things all the time, simultaneously, so God knows that it will be changed before it is changed in this realm of existence.

Again, you contradict yourself. "In advance of" means "before." You claim that for God there is no such thing as "before", and yet to show that there is no such thing as "before" for God, you rely on the concept of "before,", something which can't apply to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

No idea, but that's the contradiction that your claims have lead us to. That suggests to me that your claims are incorrect. This is essentially Proof by contradiction, although I'm using it here in somewhat of the opposite way: I assume that your claims are true, I follow those claims to their logical conclusion and show that it leads to a contradiction, and then conclude that because of this, the original claims must be false.

You said: Since you said that God will give a helping hand if it will lead to the person becoming a believer, but will not give a helping hand if the person will not become a believer. However, in this case, BOTH of these statements are true. So God, by your logic, has to both give a helping hand and NOT give it at the same time.

There is no contradiction because these are two different scenarios. God is not giving John a helping hand and NOT giving it at the same time. It is an either/or situation.

1. God will give John a helping hand and John will become a believer. (God gives a helping hand)
~~~ Or ~~~
2. God will not give John a helping hand and John will not become a believer. (God does not give a helping hand)

Well, if God knows that John will become a believer, and if God also knows that John will only become a believer if God helps, then God knows that he must help. Thus, God has no free will. God's knowledge that John WILL become a believer means there is only one possible outcome - God must step in to provide that help. And if there is only one possible outcome, then there is no choice. Thus, God has no free will.

That is not true that God knows that He must help if God also knows that John will only become a believer if He helps. God is not obligated to help John. God always has a choice as to whether He wants to help or not. So even if God's knows that John WILL become a believer if God helps, God can still choose NOT to help. I never said that God always helps, I said that God might help if John is on the fence.

God does not have free will. Only humans have free will. God has a will and God can will Himself to help John or not help John, and whatever God chooses becomes God’s will.

Also, it's a bit like a doctor trying to decide whether he will operate on the dying man who needs an operation to survive. The doctor could say, "I don't want to operate on him if he's going to die, since that is a waste of time and resources. So I will only operate on him if he is going to live."

But if the doctor operates and the patient lives, then we can say the doctor made the right choice. And yet if the doctor decides NOT to operate and the patient dies, then we can also say that the doctor made the right choice according to the criteria the doctor had for making the decision.

The difference between God and the doctor is that the doctor cannot ever absolutely know that the man is going to die, but God is all-knowing so God absolutely knows if John is going to become a believer or not, before John becomes a believer if John does. So since God absolutely knows that John will never becomes believer even with God’s help, why would God bother to help?

If God helps and John becomes a believer we can say that God made the right choice, but if God decides not to help and John does not become a believer and God knew that John would never have become a believer anyway, nothing is lost. However, if God knew that John would have become a believer with His help and God chose not to help, that would either be a lazy God or a mean God. But I just thought of a caveat. God might only help John if John reached out for help from God because God likes people praying and asking for things.

Irrelevant. It does not matter what the mechanism for predestination is. It could be God, and it could be something else.

You have a point, but that would be determinism, not predestination.

Predestination, in Christian theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.
‎Calvinism · ‎Predestination (disambiguation) · ‎Argument from free will

Determinism: the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=determinism+is

Again, you contradict yourself. "In advance of" means "before." You claim that for God there is no such thing as "before", and yet to show that there is no such thing as "before" for God, you rely on the concept of "before,", something which can't apply to God.

Before or in advance only applies to humans because we live in a time-based world. When I talk about what God knows I am referring to what God knows as it is happening to us in this world. From God’s perspective everything is as if it has already happened since the knowledge of God is not based upon time.

Before or in advance does not apply to God because God knows everything before during and after it happens in this world, and that is why I said God knows that it will be changed before it is changed in this realm of existence.

 

[Tiberius]

You said: Since you said that God will give a helping hand if it will lead to the person becoming a believer, but will not give a helping hand if the person will not become a believer. However, in this case, BOTH of these statements are true. So God, by your logic, has to both give a helping hand and NOT give it at the same time.

There is no contradiction because these are two different scenarios. God is not giving John a helping hand and NOT giving it at the same time. It is an either/or situation.

1. God will give John a helping hand and John will become a believer. (God gives a helping hand)
~~~ Or ~~~
2. God will not give John a helping hand and John will not become a believer. (God does not give a helping hand)

But until God does one or the other, both statements are equally valid, and so God can't use the outcome to determine which he should do. After all, what he does is the very thing which determines the outcome.

God does not have free will. Only humans have free will. God has a will and God can will Himself to help John or not help John, and whatever God chooses becomes God’s will.

This isn't very clear. How is it not FREE will? Is God not capable of making decisions?

The difference between God and the doctor is that the doctor cannot ever absolutely know that the man is going to die, but God is all-knowing so God absolutely knows if John is going to become a believer or not, before John becomes a believer if John does. So since God absolutely knows that John will never becomes believer even with God’s help, why would God bother to help?

Do you mind not lying about what I am saying?

I never said that "God absolutely knows that John will never becomes believer even with God’s help". In fact, I've been very clear that it's the exact opposite. God knows that with his help John WILL become a believer. If you are going to keep lying about what I am saying, I will not continue having a discussion with you.

And I think you are straining the analogy in order to dismiss it without actually addressing the point that (I suspect you know perfectly well) that I am making.

However, if God knew that John would have become a believer with His help and God chose not to help, that would either be a lazy God or a mean God.

And this is exactly the situation I am speaking of.

But I just thought of a caveat. God might only help John if John reached out for help from God because God likes people praying and asking for things.

And this once again makes God mean. "I can help you. But first, I wanna hear you PRAY for it. Go on. Oh, yeah, that's it. Lemme hear those prayers. Ah, yeah, that's the good stuff."

You have a point, but that would be determinism, not predestination.

Predestination, in Christian theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.
‎Calvinism · ‎Predestination (disambiguation) · ‎Argument from free will

Determinism: the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=determinism+is

I think this is just quibbling over wordplay, not actually addressing the topic.

Before or in advance only applies to humans because we live in a time-based world. When I talk about what God knows I am referring to what God knows as it is happening to us in this world. From God’s perspective everything is as if it has already happened since the knowledge of God is not based upon time.

Before or in advance does not apply to God because God knows everything before during and after it happens in this world, and that is why I said God knows that it will be changed before it is changed in this realm of existence.

You: Before ... only applies to humans...

Also you: God knows that it will be changed before it is changed in this realm of existence.

If you're going to work so hard to get me to accept that the concept of "before" only applies to Humans and not to God, you can't then turn around and use that word when describing how God sees things, okay?

 

[Trailblazer]

But until God does one or the other, both statements are equally valid, and so God can't use the outcome to determine which he should do. After all, what he does is the very thing which determines the outcome.

Even before God does one or the other God already knows the outcome. If the fate of John is to become a believer then God knows that John will become a believer God might give John a helping hand to help him along. If the fate of John is not to become a believer God knows that John will not become a believer so God will not give John a helping hand.

What will determine the outcome is if John chooses to become a believer. For 1. God might influence the outcome, but for 2. John already determined the outcome by choosing not to become a believer so God had no influence.

This isn't very clear. How is it not FREE will? Is God not capable of making decisions?

God has a mind and a will so God chooses and acts just like humans do, but God is FREE to do whatever God chooses to do because God has no limitations. The difference in human free will is that humans have limitations on their free will.

Do you mind not lying about what I am saying?

I never said that "God absolutely knows that John will never becomes believer even with God’s help". In fact, I've been very clear that it's the exact opposite. God knows that with his help John WILL become a believer. If you are going to keep lying about what I am saying, I will not continue having a discussion with you.

And I think you are straining the analogy in order to dismiss it without actually addressing the point that (I suspect you know perfectly well) that I am making.

You said: “God knows that with his help John WILL become a believer.” What are you basing that upon? My point was that even with God’s help John could still CHOOSE not to become a believer. The only way that John WILL become a believer is if John CHOOSES to become a believer because God never forces anyone to become a believer.

I was not lying about what you said, because I was not repeating back what you said. I am saying something different because I do not agree that is the way it would go. It is not true that John will necessarily become a believer with God’s help, not unless John CHOOSES to become a believer.

And this is exactly the situation I am speaking of.

But that is not what I was speaking of. God knows everything so God knows if John is going to CHOOSE to become a believer, so if God knows John is not going to CHOOSE to become a believer God is not going to help because God’s help would not make any difference.

And this once again makes God mean. "I can help you. But first, I wanna hear you PRAY for it. Go on. Oh, yeah, that's it. Lemme hear those prayers. Ah, yeah, that's the good stuff."

That does not make God mean, that is just what God prefers that we do and there is a better chance of getting God’s help if we pray. Now how difficult is that to pray and ask for help? How is tat any different from asking a friend for help?

I think this is just quibbling over wordplay, not actually addressing the topic.

What didn’t I address? Predestination is not the same as determinism because predestination involves God and determinism does not involve God, it involves other factors What they have in common is that something besides our free will determines the outcome, and the outcome is outside of our control.

You: Before ... only applies to humans...

Also you: God knows that it will be changed before it is changed in this realm of existence.

If you're going to work so hard to get me to accept that the concept of "before" only applies to Humans and not to God, you can't then turn around and use that word when describing how God sees things, okay?

This is really hard to explain because God is on another plane of existence where there is no time but God knows what is going on in the earthly plane of existence where there is time. I have to talk about God s if He is part of this plane of existence and it is giving me a headache.

 

[Tiberius]

Even before God does one or the other God already knows the outcome. If the fate of John is to become a believer then God knows that John will become a believer God might give John a helping hand to help him along. If the fate of John is not to become a believer God knows that John will not become a believer so God will not give John a helping hand.

What will determine the outcome is if John chooses to become a believer. For 1. God might influence the outcome, but for 2. John already determined the outcome by choosing not to become a believer so God had no influence.

According to your logic, the outcome was determined long before John was even born! Thus John and God are both robots, with no control over anything they are doing, they are just actors mindlessly performing a script they had no say in and can't change.

God has a mind and a will so God chooses and acts just like humans do, but God is FREE to do whatever God chooses to do because God has no limitations. The difference in human free will is that humans have limitations on their free will.

Except God MUST do only the things he knows he will do. So God can't choose. Choice requires more than one possible outcome, and God doesn't have that.

You said: “God knows that with his help John WILL become a believer.” What are you basing that upon? My point was that even with God’s help John could still CHOOSE not to become a believer. The only way that John WILL become a believer is if John CHOOSES to become a believer because God never forces anyone to become a believer.

I'm basing it on the fact that this is a hypothetical situation. If your only recourse is to argue with me about my own hypothetical, your position must be pretty weak.

I was not lying about what you said, because I was not repeating back what you said. I am saying something different because I do not agree that is the way it would go. It is not true that John will necessarily become a believer with God’s help, not unless John CHOOSES to become a believer.

Except for the fact that I clearly stated that John would become a believer if God helped.

But that is not what I was speaking of. God knows everything so God knows if John is going to CHOOSE to become a believer, so if God knows John is not going to CHOOSE to become a believer God is not going to help because God’s help would not make any difference.

Yes, it is the situation we are speaking of. God knows that John will become a believer with his help, but also knows that if he doesn't help, John will not be a believer. Hence, God does not help, John does not become a believer, and God can truthfully say, "I only help people if they will become believers. Since John didn't become a believer, I couldn't help him."

That does not make God mean, that is just what God prefers that we do and there is a better chance of getting God’s help if we pray. Now how difficult is that to pray and ask for help? How is tat any different from asking a friend for help?

You are the one who said it makes God mean. Now you are flip flopping on what you said? Your position has been wildly inconsistent.

What didn’t I address? Predestination is not the same as determinism because predestination involves God and determinism does not involve God, it involves other factors What they have in common is that something besides our free will determines the outcome, and the outcome is outside of our control.

You know exactly what I mean, and yet you decide to quibble over the exact wording. I've found that the only people who do that are the ones who have nothing else to discuss and try to avoid discussing the actual topic for as long as possible because they know that their points regarding that topic do not stand up to scrutiny.

This is really hard to explain because God is on another plane of existence where there is no time but God knows what is going on in the earthly plane of existence where there is time. I have to talk about God s if He is part of this plane of existence and it is giving me a headache.

Yeah, talking about things that don't make sense will do that to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to your logic, the outcome was determined long before John was even born! Thus John and God are both robots, with no control over anything they are doing, they are just actors mindlessly performing a script they had no say in and can't change.

I did not say that. I said “Even before God does one or the other God already knows the outcome.” That’s because God has foreknowledge. But just because God knows the outcome that does not mean that the outcome was determined long before John was even born. The outcome is not determined until John makes the choice to become a believer or to not become a believer.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Except God MUST do only the things he knows he will do. So God can't choose. Choice requires more than one possible outcome, and God doesn't have that.

Where did you ever get that idea? God does not have to DO anything that God does not choose to do. Sure, God knows what He will do, but what God knows is not binding God to any set course of action. God can change course and choose to do something different and in that case what God knows will be different.

Except for the fact that I clearly stated that John would become a believer if God helped.

And I asked you how you know that, what you are basing that upon.

Yes, it is the situation we are speaking of. God knows that John will become a believer with his help, but also knows that if he doesn't help, John will not be a believer. Hence, God does not help, John does not become a believer, and God can truthfully say, "I only help people if they will become believers. Since John didn't become a believer, I couldn't help him."

That is your scenario, not mine. In my scenario, John may or may not become as believer with God’s help and John might become a believer even without God’s help. If John didn't become a believer, it was because John did not choose to become a believer, with or without God’s help.

You are the one who said it makes God mean. Now you are flip flopping on what you said? Your position has been wildly inconsistent.

When did I say it makes God mean?

You know exactly what I mean, and yet you decide to quibble over the exact wording. I've found that the only people who do that are the ones who have nothing else to discuss and try to avoid discussing the actual topic for as long as possible because they know that their points regarding that topic do not stand up to scrutiny.

You are obfuscating. Predestination is determined by God and determinism is determined by human factors. That is NOT the same even if the outcome is the same and both preclude free will as a determining factor. Words have meaning and that is why there are two different words with two different meanings, predestination and determinism.

Yeah, talking about things that don't make sense will do that to you.

It makes sense to me because I understand it since I know things about God that you don’t know.