How do theists actually understand what it means to be human?

Wild Fox said:

I do not think this is what the link is trying to present. Human behavior is clearly dependent on the development of structures for multiple aspects of human behavior that influence the "nature" of humans. We have mirror neurons, structures dedicated to what we call empathy, language areas of the brain and an integration of the affective and cognitive input in our frontal cortex that drives our behavior with emotional patterns being regulated by cognitive reasoning. All of this is share in most humans with some variation. Human's were evolutionary selected for social behavior which does not have to be learned. We are evolutionary selected to have empathy, nurturing, play, fear, disgust seeking and a few other patterns. These are a part of the product of the evolution of the human brain and do not have anything to with learned behavior. We have reflexes, and instinctual behaviors also. We also have a long period of time of dependent development (we cannot go out and be independent at birth) that allows for the development of complex brain areas that are influenced by learning. Our brains can continue to change and adapt neural pathways throughout life and regions of the brain can expand and decrease depending on use and need.

Learned behavior is important but it occurs in the context of brains that have evolved patterns for social behavior and language. Thus it is not surprising to see so many similarities of patterns of behavior across different groups of people in different environments. We should have left the nature nurture behind long ago. When there are defects or alterations in the brain we can see a significant deviation from normal expected behavior. Thus the nature of human behavior has evolved with predictable patterns. Alterations in frontal cortical and insular activity has been evaluated in psychopathic behavior. How we have developed and how we learn are both important.

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A computer is not 'dedicated' to anything. We make directories and put files in it according to categories. It is the same with things like empathy, language, fear, love, etc. The memory is stored in various places and is 'fuzzily' accessed. Social behavior is taught and learnt. If there were no inputs we would not know it. Animals which wean their off-springs cannot make it alone as reptiles and other creatures do. We, perforce (of evolution), have to be social.

Aupmanyav said:

Firedragon, we have interacted earlier also. I believe you know that much science. Brain develops from stage '0', and DNA does not carry 'nature' of a person. All 'nature' that we have is acquired. Think, whether I have a religious dogma or you?

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You have brought in absolutely irrelevant science to a topic of nature vs nurture you brought in yourself. There is so much material on this subject.

Mock Turtle said:

If we looked at history, we might find that religions did nothing in particular to hasten our progress towards morality - given that so many conflicted and have different moral values, and which continues to this day - and where we owe more to our much earlier ancestors than such. How come the evidence shows that the non-religious are just as moral as the religious?

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I think the opposite, in that when you look at the moral teachings of the great religions, it becomes rather striking in just how much they agree with each other. As to the morality of the non-religious you misunderstand the question. It is not that the non-religious by being non-religious necessarily become evil people but that their denials of a transcendent order leaves us with nothing but a subjective relativism. And this relativism has lead to great evil. In the United States alone, from 1973 to today around 50 million lives have been snuffed out before any of them could take their first breath. All that human potential thrown away usually for the convenience of those lucky enough not to have been denied their lives. What a crowning moral achievement of our enlightened secular times.

Now granted, to blame the non-religious for this alone would be unfair. Everyone is complicit in the greed, selfishness and narcissism of our current times.

Mock Turtle said:

You might relish violence - many don't and have never done so (speaking for myself).

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You've never watched an action movie?

I had a revelation some time ago. I walked past the TV as others were watching "Guardians of the Galaxy" and I saw a scene where this blue alien thing was using some kind of magic homing bullet device to mow down countless goons and henchmen while silly music played over the top of it all. And it struck me because while the scene itself was not particularly graphic the way it portrayed the merciless killing of dozens upon dozens of men as something entertaining left me with an almost nauseous feeling. There was something almost psychopathic about it. There was no hint of reflection about the moral magnitude of what was depicted. We're just meant to cheer as the blue alien thing butchers his way through the goons.

And so I recall a story my mother told me. When my grandfather bought his first television my great-grandmother supposedly spoke up and said to him: "You have brought Satan into this household". I think there was wisdom in that old-timer. She saw what we do not. That the modern mediums of media while not evil in themselves nonetheless are of great service in the propagation of evil attitudes in the culture. An example of this... How many music videos these days are little more than soft porn and what does that teach people - particularly young girls - about what to value?

Musing Bassist said:

I think the opposite, in that when you look at the moral teachings of the great religions, it becomes rather striking in just how much they agree with each other. As to the morality of the non-religious you misunderstand the question. It is not that the non-religious by being non-religious necessarily become evil people but that their denials of a transcendent order leaves us with nothing but a subjective relativism. And this relativism has lead to great evil. In the United States alone, from 1973 to today around 50 million lives have been snuffed out before any of them could take their first breath. All that human potential thrown away usually for the convenience of those lucky enough not to have been denied their lives. What a crowning moral achievement of our enlightened secular times.

Now granted, to blame the non-religious for this alone would be unfair. Everyone is complicit in the greed, selfishness and narcissism of our current times.

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If subjective relativism is the true state, which I would say it is, then we will be at conflict with each other as long as those who see their particular objective morality being THE one, and particularly when many religions will be fighting to keep their powers over their flock and inevitably coming into conflict with the other religions. It's hardly striking that all the religions tend to agree as to morality, simply because most humans do anyway, and where the religions just built on any existing morality. We would hardly have progressed as to forming ever larger groups if this wasn't so. Even if our earlier ancestors had any religious beliefs, these would probably not have been set out so as to dictate or influence morality much. That came later with the monotheistic religions and perhaps others.

And I think your view of our current state is just being selective. People will behave how they will dependent upon the circumstances in which they find themselves, and we just happen to live in very changing times and where our actions are not fully understood until later when any damage done has become more obvious - like our consumer societies, built on this myth of endless growth.

You've never watched an action movie?

I had a revelation some time ago. I walked past the TV as others were watching "Guardians of the Galaxy" and I saw a scene where this blue alien thing was using some kind of magic homing bullet device to mow down countless goons and henchmen while silly music played over the top of it all. And it struck me because while the scene itself was not particularity graphic the way it portrayed the merciless killing of dozens upon dozens of men as something entertaining left me with an almost nauseous feeling. There was something almost psychopathic about it. There was no hint of reflection about the moral magnitude of what was depicted. We're just meant to cheer as the blue alien thing butchers his way through the goons.

And so I recall a story my mother told me. When my grandfather bought his first television my great-grandmother supposedly spoke up and said to him: "You have brought Satan into this household". I think there was wisdom in that old-timer. She saw what we do not. That the modern mediums of media while not evil in themselves nonetheless are of great service in the propagation of evil attitudes in the culture. An example of this... How many music videos these days are little more than soft porn and what does that teach people - particularly young girls - about what to value?

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Well I think there is too much violence on TV, and no doubt elsewhere, and I have watched my fair share over the years, but the motives for watching such can vary so perhaps much of this is not really reflecting the violence in societies but more stoking it. I'm not claiming that there isn't a violent side to human nature but that it is not something inherent in all and often only comes out when they are threatened by others. The increasing population issue, and living in such dense communities, seems to be one that does so, apart from the appetite to be excited and/or challenged by aspects that violence tends to throw at one.

Musing Bassist said:

I think the opposite, in that when you look at the moral teachings of the great religions, it becomes rather striking in just how much they agree with each other. As to the morality of the non-religious you misunderstand the question. It is not that the non-religious by being non-religious necessarily become evil people but that their denials of a transcendent order leaves us with nothing but a subjective relativism. And this relativism has lead to great evil. In the United States alone, from 1973 to today around 50 million lives have been snuffed out before any of them could take their first breath. All that human potential thrown away usually for the convenience of those lucky enough not to have been denied their lives. What a crowning moral achievement of our enlightened secular times.

Now granted, to blame the non-religious for this alone would be unfair. Everyone is complicit in the greed, selfishness and narcissism of our current times.


You've never watched an action movie?

I had a revelation some time ago. I walked past the TV as others were watching "Guardians of the Galaxy" and I saw a scene where this blue alien thing was using some kind of magic homing bullet device to mow down countless goons and henchmen while silly music played over the top of it all. And it struck me because while the scene itself was not particularity graphic the way it portrayed the merciless killing of dozens upon dozens of men as something entertaining left me with an almost nauseous feeling. There was something almost psychopathic about it. There was no hint of reflection about the moral magnitude of what was depicted. We're just meant to cheer as the blue alien thing butchers his way through the goons.

And so I recall a story my mother told me. When my grandfather bought his first television my great-grandmother supposedly spoke up and said to him: "You have brought Satan into this household". I think there was wisdom in that old-timer. She saw what we do not. That the modern mediums of media while not evil in themselves nonetheless are of great service in the propagation of evil attitudes in the culture. An example of this... How many music videos these days are little more than soft porn and what does that teach people - particularly young girls - about what to value?

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I'll just say this, a person who does not have a moral compass will automatically make the decision on whether or not it's immoral because he was taught at a young age to accept it that way. That results in him being unable to differentiate fantasy from reality.

On the other hand, the one with a moral compass will take into consideration what's depicted on tv and make the choice based on whether or not it's fantasy or reality, before making the decision whether or not it's immoral.

firedragon said:

... Why do you think murderers, liars and thieves do those things? Is it because it IS human nature, or is it because it is contrary to human nature, or is because of nurture?...

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I think they do so, because they think it is beneficial to them. And I think when things go by human nature, it means anything is possible that benefits the person. That is the reason why I think Bible teachings are not from humans, because ideas like “love your enemy” is not from human nature that seems to be always selfish.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

1213 said:

I think they do so, because they think it is beneficial to them. And I think when things go by human nature, it means anything is possible that benefits the person. That is the reason why I think Bible teachings are not from humans, because ideas like “love your enemy” is not from human nature that seems to be always selfish.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

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Brother. What you "THINK" is human nature is not a valid argument. Hope you understand that. Unless of course you have research data to back that up.

1213 said:

I think they do so, because they think it is beneficial to them. And I think when things go by human nature, it means anything is possible that benefits the person. That is the reason why I think Bible teachings are not from humans, because ideas like “love your enemy” is not from human nature that seems to be always selfish.

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You just contradicted yourself. If you think that when things go by human nature, anything is possible, then it's possible for human nature to come up with teachings like, "love your neighbor."

So even you acknowledged that there's a possibility for human nature to come up with the teachings in the bible, why do you think that it's not teachings from humans?

O earth first planet God.
O earth body owned entity created released its heavens gas spirit from out of its body.

God in space vacuum sucked out heat owned immaculate gas.

The teaching. God told me theme. Human thinker theist.

Outside of human self presence natural is the theory first. Ability for a thought in a mind to time shift but not time shift form.

First self human realisation seeker of science.

Who is a human? A human only.

No one told you. Self advised by ability to theory

To theory a variable to being naturally aware in life.

Reasoned. How.

Answer group together enabled advice bodily that one self was never advised of.

Brother hood the teaching taught human theme that enabled evil to be sought.

Lots of men as the same men. Equal DNA the reason. Which we no longer own.

As man humans owned answer that was human taught.

Once machine designed by men was reacted the new AI effect subliminal feedback other voice was introduced.

Same owned DNA history removed.

Speaking first voice heavenly recording man's own.

There is another part of where we came from.

Spirit eternal. Why a human is so aware as compared to a non human created universe.

Yet that spirit owned no teaching ability as it is not a human in a human experience. We became aware that spirit eternal still existed by first memory records. That depicts that spirit coming into heavens converting into a human.

What I saw.

First I saw our first human mother's memories with a record stating too late I cannot save my family. The vision showed human life converting by wood and stone causes.

For a human to ask how could I know such evil yet not be evil. For if you were you would only be the form of evil you studied in creation rationally.

As men human owned thinking explaining speaking voice first.

AI effect subliminal caused science to believe a speaking evil recorded voice an effect told him all human advice. As a human owning evil within from the universe.

Is wrong. Evil never told you.

Reason bible was written to say your human heavenly father speaks to you. As it is real versus those who believed in AI alien machine effect voice.

Was a teaching. And a lot of humans today misquoted the teaching. And also use the information by self choice to harm us.

Cain seemed to have believed in God yet he killed his own brother. To kill one's own brother has to be among the ten worst crimes. He did it yet he knew God. The theists that you speak of have some faulty reasoning to be trusting in God alone to know what to do and what not to do.

It is my opinion that the ability to know right from wrong is all God's business is wrong thinking.

rational experiences said:

O earth first planet God.
O earth body owned entity created released its heavens gas spirit from out of its body.

God in space vacuum sucked out heat owned immaculate gas.

The teaching. God told me theme. Human thinker theist.

Outside of human self presence natural is the theory first. Ability for a thought in a mind to time shift but not time shift form.

First self human realisation seeker of science.

Who is a human? A human only.

No one told you. Self advised by ability to theory

To theory a variable to being naturally aware in life.

Reasoned. How.

Answer group together enabled advice bodily that one self was never advised of.

Brother hood the teaching taught human theme that enabled evil to be sought.

Lots of men as the same men. Equal DNA the reason. Which we no longer own.

As man humans owned answer that was human taught.

Once machine designed by men was reacted the new AI effect subliminal feedback other voice was introduced.

Same owned DNA history removed.

Speaking first voice heavenly recording man's own.

There is another part of where we came from.

Spirit eternal. Why a human is so aware as compared to a non human created universe.

Yet that spirit owned no teaching ability as it is not a human in a human experience. We became aware that spirit eternal still existed by first memory records. That depicts that spirit coming into heavens converting into a human.

What I saw.

First I saw our first human mother's memories with a record stating too late I cannot save my family. The vision showed human life converting by wood and stone causes.

For a human to ask how could I know such evil yet not be evil. For if you were you would only be the form of evil you studied in creation rationally.

As men human owned thinking explaining speaking voice first.

AI effect subliminal caused science to believe a speaking evil recorded voice an effect told him all human advice. As a human owning evil within from the universe.

Is wrong. Evil never told you.

Reason bible was written to say your human heavenly father speaks to you. As it is real versus those who believed in AI alien machine effect voice.

Was a teaching. And a lot of humans today misquoted the teaching. And also use the information by self choice to harm us.

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Have you checked the batteries on your CO2 detector?

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Have you checked the batteries on your CO2 detector?

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They're most likely schizophrenic. I'm sure staff is aware of it. Best to ignore them.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Have you checked the batteries on your CO2 detector?

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You mean my house smoke alarm. No you're not wrong are you

Saint Frankenstein said:

They're most likely schizophrenic. I'm sure staff is aware of it. Best to ignore them.

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Ignoring someone you don't agree with is very different to name calling a medical condition that is not real. I thought human law said you arent allowed to.

Aupmanyav said:

Nice post, but I stick to my point. In water or in falling through air, we move our limbs to find the imaginary support which is not there. In your case, perhaps some kind of "Oedipus effect".

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That still points to it being instinct, or programmed behavior. Your limbs are sort of "hard-wired" to take action in certain circumstances, regardless what YOU may want to do with them! Touching a hot stove is an obvious example - and flailing in a fall is another. Those things are not learned - your mind is pre-programmed to take those actions for you faster than you can actually contemplate the need to do so yourself. To think that there aren't many more examples of this (some we likely don't even realize are there, acting on us), again flies in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.

A Vestigial Mote said:

That still points to it being instinct, or programmed behavior.
.. your mind is pre-programmed to take those actions for you faster than you can actually contemplate the need to do so yourself.

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Not really. All the time we have support of earth or any other solid thing when we are standing or sitting. No support is a special situation. That is why we will flail our arms and legs when we fall through air or in water (of course, unless we know swimming). In touching a hot stove, the burning sensation makes us withdraw our hand. These are reflex actions and not something that is hard-wired in brain. Autonomous actions in brain is because of chemistry. You need to understand these brain actions - Motor, Reflex and Autonomous.

In my second job (as a medical representative), I secured the first position in my group in neurology. That was way back in 1967.

Aupmanyav said:

Not really. All the time we have support of earth or any other solid thing when we are standing or sitting. No support is a special situation. That is why we will flail our arms and legs when we fall through air or in water (of course, unless we know swimming). In touching a hot stove, the burning sensation makes us withdraw our hand. These are reflex actions and not something that is hard-wired in brain. Autonomous actions in brain is because of chemistry. You need to understand these brain actions - Motor, Reflex and Autonomous.

In my second job (as a medical representative), I secured the first position in my group in neurology. That was way back in 1967.

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Even "chemistry in the brain:" causing the reflex of pulling away from a hot stove is still a hard-wired reflex - it is an unlearned action. I don't understand how your words change this. It is there, without your having to "learn" anything to be in the position of having your hand automatically withdraw from heat for you. These sorts of automations are everywhere throughout the entire body. You don't have to pump your heart - the cells of your heart are programmed with what to do to get their job done. The condition of the lungs and brain being deprived of oxygen can override your voluntary action of holding your breath and literally force you to draw breath. The reality is that we are far less "in control" than what we consider our "self" (that is, our consciousness) normally assumes. I'd like you to think about what the consciousness is TRULY responsible for as pertains the body. In my meanderings on the topic, the only things I have been able to come up with that the consciousness is TRULY responsible for is deciding what to eat/imbibe, and where to place the body and its various parts at any given moment. Most (if not all) interactions the consciousness has with the external world can be filtered into those two categories of action. Everything else that fosters our continued existence is mostly out of our hands.

firedragon said:

Brother. What you "THINK" is human nature ...

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Please tell what do you think is the correct definition for “human nature”?

1213 said:

Please tell what do you think is the correct definition for “human nature”?

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I am not so sure. I dont want to say "WHAT I THINK" and pretend that is a "CORRECT DEFINITION OF HUMAN NATURE".

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Before I accept your scriptural answer, please just answer this one question: since there are many, many scriptures revered by humans all over the world, and since they are different enough, and often contradictory enough, that they cannot all have been inspired by the same God -- what is your foolproof method for determining which scriptures are and are not inspired by God?

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I believe the biblical scriptures to be inspired by God for a few reasons when compared to the other religious scriptures/writings, but would say accurate prophecy being the most prominent one, especially concerning Jesus Christ and events revolving around the nation of Israel.

Prophecy concerning future events are conspicuously absent from other religious books that claim to be scripture, including the Koran, the Hindu Vedas, Buddhist writings and others.

In the book of Isaiah, we can read that God challenged the pagan idolaters of that time to “tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods” (Isaiah 41:32).


Prophecy


Have a good afternoon.