Questioning The Veracity Of James 5:15-16

BilliardsBall · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Actually it says, "IF anyone has sinned, confess them..." Big difference. But John says, "Anyone who is of God doesn't sin." Apparently James never read John.

James/John/Paul/Jesus the OT, etc. parse sin. If someone has an abiding sin (example, alcoholism, and confesses it, they will see a big leap forward). If an alcoholic gets liver disease, they can be healed by an oil anointing but may have a recurrence).

capumetu · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Some (not necessarily here) have accused me of expecting too much from the Bible's promises. I've mentioned that the only promise made by Jesus that appears in ALL 4 GOSPELS is: "Ask the father for ANYTHING in my name and he will give it to you." Some say I'm not reading the promises in context. Others say I'm misapplying the verses. Still others say it cannot be proved that when Jesus said "anything" he really meant "anything." Okay, fair enough. I concede that when Jesus said "anything" he didn't really mean "anything". The Bible needs to be taken as a whole, another verse says similar
(1 John 5:13-15) 13 I write you these things so that you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that no matter what we ask according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us concerning whatever we are asking, we know that we are to have the things we ask for, since we have asked them of him.

I read a touching article this morning from a pastor. The crux of it is:

In countless moments I have privately and desperately petitioned God to bring miraculous cures, to reverse seemingly hopeless situations, to circumvent dire diagnoses. I believed healing was possible—and I believed I could sway God with words to bring it. I don’t believe that any longer.

Prayer Doesn't Heal People—At Least I Hope Not

A minister admits he's lost faith in the ability of prayer to sway God to heal. That's not news anymore with thousands of pastors dropping out of the Christian faith in this modern world. But one IS forced to confront why the Bible is actually exhorting Christians to pray for the sick when God never had any intention of healing them:

Another thing to consider is the time period as well as to whom it was said. The Bible clearly states that the gifts would be done away with, that happened with the death of the apostles.
(1 Corinthians 13:8-10) . . .Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with.
No longer can Christians heal sir.

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed

Psalm 41:3
The Lord sustains him on his sickbed; in his illness you restore him to full health.

James, though, is the troubling one to me. James presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives a command for the sick to call the church elders to pray over him. James makes an ironclad promise that the elders' prayer of faith will heal the sick person. It's there in black white. I have had Christians tell me that the word "save" means save their soul and God will raise him up means will raise him up to heaven. Why are they praying over a sick person just so that he can be saved spiritually? Does that make sense? What if the sick person is already "saved" i.e. believes and trusts in Jesus, how can they be saved again?

Is this passage truthful? Some say the Bible cannot lie, but what I see right before me is an outright lie from James. I've had church elders pray over me to no avail. I'm sure most Christians have too. So how are we to interpret this ironclad promise? Has Christianity in today's world become a case of black is actually white and truth is actually falsehood? How are people supposed to respond when they see a verse like "God WILL raise up those who are sick" and then see it not happen over and over and over?

How are people supposed to confront James' obvious lie, or are they simply supposed to run away from it, tuck in away in the drawer or just bury their heads in the sand?

Or should Christians take the easy way out and say that when James promised that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up, that James didn't really mean that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up--that's not what the verse is saying at all?

All sickness, even death will be gone when the Kingdom comes sir, not before.

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 10, 2021

capumetu said:
All sickness, even death will be gone when the Kingdom comes sir, not before.

So we're right back to square one. Why would James make a promise that God WILL cure a sick person if God doesn't intend to cure the sick person?

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 10, 2021

BilliardsBall said:
James/John/Paul/Jesus the OT, etc. parse sin. If someone has an abiding sin (example, alcoholism, and confesses it, they will see a big leap forward). If an alcoholic gets liver disease, they can be healed by an oil anointing but may have a recurrence).

I notice you use the word, "can" in reference to an alcoholic which means it's possible--not "WILL" be healed by an oil anointing. So what James really means is "he MIGHT be healed and and God MIGHT raise him up", right?

loverofhumanity · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Some (not necessarily here) have accused me of expecting too much from the Bible's promises. I've mentioned that the only promise made by Jesus that appears in ALL 4 GOSPELS is: "Ask the father for ANYTHING in my name and he will give it to you." Some say I'm not reading the promises in context. Others say I'm misapplying the verses. Still others say it cannot be proved that when Jesus said "anything" he really meant "anything." Okay, fair enough. I concede that when Jesus said "anything" he didn't really mean "anything".

I read a touching article this morning from a pastor. The crux of it is:

In countless moments I have privately and desperately petitioned God to bring miraculous cures, to reverse seemingly hopeless situations, to circumvent dire diagnoses. I believed healing was possible—and I believed I could sway God with words to bring it. I don’t believe that any longer.

Prayer Doesn't Heal People—At Least I Hope Not

A minister admits he's lost faith in the ability of prayer to sway God to heal. That's not news anymore with thousands of pastors dropping out of the Christian faith in this modern world. But one IS forced to confront why the Bible is actually exhorting Christians to pray for the sick when God never had any intention of healing them:

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed

Psalm 41:3
The Lord sustains him on his sickbed; in his illness you restore him to full health.

James, though, is the troubling one to me. James presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives a command for the sick to call the church elders to pray over him. James makes an ironclad promise that the elders' prayer of faith will heal the sick person. It's there in black white. I have had Christians tell me that the word "save" means save their soul and God will raise him up means will raise him up to heaven. Why are they praying over a sick person just so that he can be saved spiritually? Does that make sense? What if the sick person is already "saved" i.e. believes and trusts in Jesus, how can they be saved again?

Is this passage truthful? Some say the Bible cannot lie, but what I see right before me is an outright lie from James. I've had church elders pray over me to no avail. I'm sure most Christians have too. So how are we to interpret this ironclad promise? Has Christianity in today's world become a case of black is actually white and truth is actually falsehood? How are people supposed to respond when they see a verse like "God WILL raise up those who are sick" and then see it not happen over and over and over?

How are people supposed to confront James' obvious lie, or are they simply supposed to run away from it, tuck in away in the drawer or just bury their heads in the sand?

Or should Christians take the easy way out and say that when James promised that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up, that James didn't really mean that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up--that's not what the verse is saying at all?

My thoughts are that it depends a lot on the illness. Sicknesses which are caused by physical causes should be treated by qualified doctors and medications. But illnesses caused by emotion such as stress, depression and anxiety can be cured by spiritual remedies such as prayer, mantras, meditation and mindfulness.

So for instance, if a person suffers from anxiety, stress and depression, prayers which reinforce positive emotions should be used and can be very effective. So we fight negativeness with positiveness. And if the depression or stress is causing physical illnesses, then prayer, by producing positive sentiments can also cure the physical ailments caused by negative emotions.

This is one example of how it works.

O God! Refresh and gladden my spirit. Purify my heart. Illumine my powers. I lay all my affairs in Thy hand. Thou art my Guide and my Refuge. I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved; I will be a happy and joyful being. O God! I will no longer be full of anxiety, nor will I let trouble harass me. I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.

O God! Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself. I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Inquire of God · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Well, Isaiah prophesied in God's name, and Micah prophesied in God's name. So did Zechariah, Obadiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. Maybe Jesus will say to them, Depart from me I never knew you. After some of them got some prophecies wrong. That makes them false prophets.

You can think that if you want to.

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 10, 2021

Inquire of God said:
You can think that if you want to.

I'm just making a point. Who knows?

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 10, 2021

loverofhumanity said:
My thoughts are that it depends a lot on the illness. Sicknesses which are caused by physical causes should be treated by qualified doctors and medications. But illnesses caused by emotion such as stress, depression and anxiety can be cured by spiritual remedies such as prayer, mantras, meditation and mindfulness.

So for instance, if a person suffers from anxiety, stress and depression, prayers which reinforce positive emotions should be used and can be very effective. So we fight negativeness with positiveness. And if the depression or stress is causing physical illnesses, then prayer, by producing positive sentiments can also cure the physical ailments caused by negative emotions.

This is one example of how it works.

O God! Refresh and gladden my spirit. Purify my heart. Illumine my powers. I lay all my affairs in Thy hand. Thou art my Guide and my Refuge. I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved; I will be a happy and joyful being. O God! I will no longer be full of anxiety, nor will I let trouble harass me. I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.

O God! Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself. I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

I couldn't have said it better. Praying is great for spiritual comfort, meditation and anxiety. It should never but NEVER be used in the expectations it's going to elicit a physical healing response from God. That's was my mistake 20 years ago and is currently the mistake of millions of Christians, most of whom fall away from faith after their prayers for themselves or a loved one repeatedly fail. God is a deist god, I am convinced of that. There isn't a single scientifically verified instance of a miraculous healing that couldn't have come about by some other natural means like spontaneous remission or similar. It is the question the website, "Why Won't God heal Amputees" asks. You've got millions of "miraculous" cases of God healing headaches, but none of church elders praying over a crushed arm and having it restored right before onlookers' eyes.

Inquire of God · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
I'm just making a point. Who knows?

How can one claim they got ANY prophesies wrong? We don't have enough information to do that.

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 10, 2021

Inquire of God said:
How can one claim they got ANY prophesies wrong? We don't have enough information to do that.

Isaiah got a few things wrong in Chap 53. For example

"He was assigned a grave with the wicked"

Jesus wasn't buried with anyone wicked. He wasn't buried with anyone rich, for that matter.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
So we're right back to square one. Why would James make a promise that God WILL cure a sick person if God doesn't intend to cure the sick person?

Please remember that everything in Scripture is Not about physical sickness, literal.
For example: Isaiah 6:3 speaks of oil and garments but they are Not literal in that verse.
James 5:13-16 is about someone who is: ' spiritually sick '
The physically sick do Not call the elders, but would call a physician as the gospel writer Luke was a doctor.
A person who is ' spiritually ill ' should pray, and pray for one another.

As far as ' God will cure ' please notice Revelation 22:2 because 'there will be' (future) ' healing ' for earth's nations.
This is a reason why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon humanity.
God will have Jesus step in and Earth will be as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

Inquire of God · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Isaiah got a few things wrong in Chap 53. For example

"He was assigned a grave with the wicked"

Jesus wasn't buried with anyone wicked. He wasn't buried with anyone rich, for that matter.

What you say here is actually a claim, not a statement of fact. If you want to believe it as a fact though that is okay. Also, what is meant in this scripture, and in just about all scriptures, is not clearly known BY ANYONE. No one person or group of person's interpretation of scripture can be taken as a fact since there are so many interpretations and since this is true the debate can only be settled by God, and I believe that, of course, at some time it will be settled with finality. The scriptures actually talk about this, but since I may be misinterpreting them I won't quote them to try to PROVE what I say. I firmly believe in the prophets, the real ones, which I will not make a list here of who I actually accept, but I will say this, even the ones I accept are often very elusive in their pronouncements. You sound as if you patently do not believe the prophets, and that is okay-you can do what you want-but to make statements like you do above that the prophets are in error and have given out fake prophecies is, in my mind, a very dangerous position to take. But, that is up to you.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Isaiah got a few things wrong in Chap 53. For example
"He was assigned a grave with the wicked"
Jesus wasn't buried with anyone wicked. He wasn't buried with anyone rich, for that matter.

Right, Jesus was Not buried with the wicked.
In the ^ above ^ verse the word ' assigned ' is a different word from buried.
Please note: when Jesus died he died between two robbers. ( Because they were executed they were considered as wicked )
Remember: those hate-filled Jews would testify that Jesus was executed as a criminal.
It was after Jesus' death, then wealthy Joseph of Arimathea laid Jesus body in his tomb.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
So we're right back to square one. Why would James make a promise that God WILL cure a sick person if God doesn't intend to cure the sick person?

'Physical healing' is for the future time as found at Revelation 22:2; Isaiah 33:24; 1 Corinthians 15:26
James was dealing with ' spiritual healing ' for someone who would be ' spiritually sick '.
Someone who might need help dealing with a spiritual matter: overcoming the practice of a sin of some sort.

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 10, 2021

URAVIP2ME said:
'Physical healing' is for the future time as found at Revelation 22:2; Isaiah 33:24; 1 Corinthians 15:26
James was dealing with ' spiritual healing ' for someone who would be ' spiritually sick '.
Someone who might need help dealing with a spiritual matter: overcoming the practice of a sin of some sort.

I don't see anything there that indicates this is for spiritual illness. Isn't this just a con the church came up with to try to explain the failure of prayer to cure a physically sick person?

URAVIP2ME · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
I don't see anything there that indicates this is for spiritual illness. Isn't this just a con the church came up with to try to explain the failure of prayer to cure a physically sick person?

The contrast of being sick with being in good spirits indicates Not dealing with physical sickness, but spiritual sickness - James 5:13-14
Elders do Not apply literal oil, but symbolic oil, the 'soothing oil' of God's Word. - Psalms 141:5

loverofhumanity · Feb 10, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
I couldn't have said it better. Praying is great for spiritual comfort, meditation and anxiety. It should never but NEVER be used in the expectations it's going to elicit a physical healing response from God. That's was my mistake 20 years ago and is currently the mistake of millions of Christians, most of whom fall away from faith after their prayers for themselves or a loved one repeatedly fail. God is a deist god, I am convinced of that. There isn't a single scientifically verified instance of a miraculous healing that couldn't have come about by some other natural means like spontaneous remission or similar. It is the question the website, "Why Won't God heal Amputees" asks. You've got millions of "miraculous" cases of God healing headaches, but none of church elders praying over a crushed arm and having it restored right before onlookers' eyes.

Exactly.

God has endowed man with intellect and reason and from this he has discovered the sciences and medical sciences, so these are gifts from God for our use to treat illness.

I agree wholeheartedly. For eye problems we see an eye specialist. I was blind and now I see 20/20 after a cataract operation. Many illnesses such as diabetes and liver problems originate from diet so we consult qualified nutritionists.

I think the problem arises when religion doesn’t accept science. To deny science is, I believe, to fall into superstition and ignorance. I recently had a terrible gall bladder attack and was rushed by ambulance to 3 hospitals where I had a 15 minute ERCP to remove stones after which it was like magic, all pain completely gone. The stone had to be removed. Thank God for medical science!

Actually, I believe that religion needs science to clear away many superstitions. I believe science needs to help people learn how to think and reason for themselves, as for centuries we have just been indoctrinated to blindly and lazily follow that which we are spoon fed by some smooth talkers. The purpose of having a mind is to question and investigate not just collect information.

We are told that...

Whatever competent physicians or surgeons prescribe for a patient should be accepted and complied with.. (Baha’u’llah)

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 10, 2021

URAVIP2ME said:
Right, Jesus was Not buried with the wicked.
In the ^ above ^ verse the word ' assigned ' is a different word from buried.
Please note: when Jesus died he died between two robbers. ( Because they were executed they were considered as wicked )
Remember: those hate-filled Jews would testify that Jesus was executed as a criminal.
It was after Jesus' death, then wealthy Joseph of Arimathea laid Jesus body in his tomb.

But the passage doesn't mention buried has anything to do with the manner in which Jesus died or who he died with. It has to do with who he was buried with because it specifically says "grave" He was assigned (given) a grave (Joseph's tomb) with the wicked (he was buried with the wicked). You're misinterpreting deliberately in order to squeeze the prophecy into some kind of coherent fulfillment, but it's clear that what the prophecy says is NOT what actually happened. PROPHECY FAIL.

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 10, 2021

URAVIP2ME said:
The contrast of being sick with being in good spirits indicates Not dealing with physical sickness, but spiritual sickness - James 5:13-14
Elders do Not apply literal oil, but symbolic oil, the 'soothing oil' of God's Word. - Psalms 141:5

This is all your own personal interpretation in order to try to squeeze sensibility into a completely incoherent and untruthful scripture.

capumetu · Feb 11, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
So we're right back to square one. Why would James make a promise that God WILL cure a sick person if God doesn't intend to cure the sick person?

The apostles were able to cure everyone who came to them from physical sickness. The Bible teaches those gifts would be done away with, and they died out with them.

You are actually misreading the account in James, as it is referring to spiritual, not physical sickness, and yes elders today are able to pray with individuals who are struggling with a spiritual problem, and based upon the individuals heart condition Jehovah will cure them.

Questioning The Veracity Of James 5:15-16

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