Questioning The Veracity Of James 5:15-16

[SeekingAllTruth]

Thank you for presenting your doubts.
So now, the pastor might have made technical mistakes.
He just prayed.
But James doesn't require the pastor to just pray.
James says that the sick person should call for the elders. It's plural.
Is that an umimportant detail?
No, I don't think so.
Jesus wanted to prevent potential abuse of power, so he said elders in plural.

I appreciate that but it's customary for more than one person to lay hands on someone. You've seen this at revivals where 3 or 4 of the church clergy lay hands on a person's back as they pray for him. Three elders of my church laid hands on me and prayed. Nothing happened. I didn't get well. As I worsened I eventually said, "To hell with all this voodoo mumbo-jumbo" and went to a physician who wrote me some prescriptions and that cured me. The doctor became God in my mind, not the Christian God.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I get the jist of what you're saying but this is more philosophy than religion. I'm not much on philosophy, sorry. Religious history of Christianity is more my forte.

History is a new kind of scripture and to be revered; but I'm talking about the future and doing better this time around the track. If you look back into history you can see what Christians were doing right and wrong, so its a new kind of scripture. Its a conscience and a lesson.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

History is a new kind of scripture and to be revered; but I'm talking about the future and doing better this time around the track. If you look back into history you can see what Christians were doing right and wrong, so its a new kind of scripture. Its a conscience and a lesson.

This is a little over my head, brick. Sorry.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

It is a crock that God heals all the illnesses of people who pray to him, elders involved or no elders. Sometimes God heals and sometimes he does not and we have no idea what his reasons are.

When I was in my early forties, I came down with congestive heart failure. I had all the symptoms, swollen legs and the whole nine yards, and it was confirmed by a ultra sound in the ER that my heart was enlarged. Then when I went to the cardiologist and he had a second ultrasound done, it was as if my heart had never had a problem in the world. I've never had problems with my heart since. There is no medical explanation for the spontaneous healing of my heart.

On the other hand, I have two other serious illnesses that require constant medical care, one of which I have had my whole life, and God has not seen fit to cure them.

Baruch HaShem. He knows what is ultimately best. I leave myself to his wishes, and I thank him for the many well trained, intelligent doctors he has sent into my life.

Well, the CHF sounds like one of those spontaneous cancer remissions where the doctors are baffled by a cancer that mysteriously goes into remission without chemo. This happens at pretty steady rates across all religions, even atheists. So nobody prayed for you, you got healed, while parents of cancer-ridden children call their church elders in to pray over the child, child dies. Doesn't sound like God at work here, just nature. But if the Bible cannot demonstrate a reliable stand of result when it purports to present a standard, then the Bible isn't of much use except for presenting some pretty ideas about loving your fellow man as yourself and a little bit of history. This is why I am an agnostic deist. I'm not sure if there is a God out there but if there is he's definitely deistic. He doesn't involve himself with man's workings down here. All you have to do is look to see that's true.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Some (not necessarily here) have accused me of expecting too much from the Bible's promises. I've mentioned that the only promise made by Jesus that appears in ALL 4 GOSPELS is: "Ask the father for ANYTHING in my name and he will give it to you." Some say I'm not reading the promises in context. Others say I'm misapplying the verses. Still others say it cannot be proved that when Jesus said "anything" he really meant "anything." Okay, fair enough. I concede that when Jesus said "anything" he didn't really mean "anything".

I read a touching article this morning from a pastor. The crux of it is:

In countless moments I have privately and desperately petitioned God to bring miraculous cures, to reverse seemingly hopeless situations, to circumvent dire diagnoses. I believed healing was possible—and I believed I could sway God with words to bring it. I don’t believe that any longer.

Prayer Doesn't Heal People—At Least I Hope Not

A minister admits he's lost faith in the ability of prayer to sway God to heal. That's not news anymore with thousands of pastors dropping out of the Christian faith in this modern world. But one IS forced to confront why the Bible is actually exhorting Christians to pray for the sick when God never had any intention of healing them:

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed

Psalm 41:3
The Lord sustains him on his sickbed; in his illness you restore him to full health.

James, though, is the troubling one to me. James presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives a command for the sick to call the church elders to pray over him. James makes an ironclad promise that the elders' prayer of faith will heal the sick person. It's there in black white. I have had Christians tell me that the word "save" means save their soul and God will raise him up means will raise him up to heaven. Why are they praying over a sick person just so that he can be saved spiritually? Does that make sense? What if the sick person is already "saved" i.e. believes and trusts in Jesus, how can they be saved again?

Is this passage truthful? Some say the Bible cannot lie, but what I see right before me is an outright lie from James. I've had church elders pray over me to no avail. I'm sure most Christians have too. So how are we to interpret this ironclad promise? Has Christianity in today's world become a case of black is actually white and truth is actually falsehood? How are people supposed to respond when they see a verse like "God WILL raise up those who are sick" and then see it not happen over and over and over?

How are people supposed to confront James' obvious lie, or are they simply supposed to run away from it, tuck in away in the drawer or just bury their heads in the sand?

Or should Christians take the easy way out and say that when James promised that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up, that James didn't really mean that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up--that's not what the verse is saying at all?

I've seen healings via anointed oil prayer. Recall, though, the James passage says the person healed must confess sin.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I've seen healings via anointed oil prayer. Recall, though, the James passage says the person healed must confess sin.

Actually it says, "IF anyone has sinned, confess them..." Big difference. But John says, "Anyone who is of God doesn't sin." Apparently James never read John.

 

[74x12]

I was a dye-in-the-wool Christian of tremendous faith at the time. That's why I obeyed James' command and called my church elders. The fact I did demonstrates my faith. If I had thought James was a useless empty promise would I have gone through all that trouble? You're talking picking and choosing scriptures in the present time. Of course it is unbelief on my part. I don't believe a thing the Bible promises now, but I'd like to understand if this is my error because I don't comprehend the passage or if it really is the Bible's fault that James is giving Christians a bum steer.

You were sick?

 

[74x12]

Actually it says, "IF anyone has sinned, confess them..." Big difference. But John says, "Anyone who is of God doesn't sin." Apparently James never read John.

Yes but what John says should be kept in context of his whole letter. John also says that if any one does sin they have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1)

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Yes but what John says should be kept in context of his whole letter. John also says that if any one does sin they have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1)

I guess I'm a stickler for detail. I expect better from God. It's like saying, "I never rob banks. But if I did rob a bank I'd turn myself in."

 

[Wandering Monk]

The typical method for getting God off the hook for unanswered prayers is that the victim didn't have enough faith.

This is spiritual abuse, plain and clear.

 

[74x12]

The typical method for getting God off the hook for unanswered prayers is that the victim didn't have enough faith.

This is spiritual abuse, plain and clear.

It takes faith for both the person praying and the one being prayed for. Peter even put people out of the room because he knew they didn't have faith. (Acts 9:40) Jesus did the same. (Mark 5:40)

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The typical method for getting God off the hook for unanswered prayers is that the victim didn't have enough faith.

This is spiritual abuse, plain and clear.

Ain't that the truth: "You don't have enough faith. That's why your prayers aren't answered." How much faith do I need?" "More than you're praying with now, clearly."

 

[74x12]

So were you sick back then or someone else? Are you still sick?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

So were you sick back then or someone else? Are you still sick?

I was sick and no, I'm not sick anymore as long as I continue taking my meds.

 

[74x12]

I was sick and no, I'm not sick anymore as long as I continue taking my meds.

Some people might attribute your recovery to more than just meds. Provision of God perhaps. Either way, maybe God would have healed you if you had waited long enough. We'll never know now. At least you're not dead right?

 

[Inquire of God]

Some (not necessarily here) have accused me of expecting too much from the Bible's promises. I've mentioned that the only promise made by Jesus that appears in ALL 4 GOSPELS is: "Ask the father for ANYTHING in my name and he will give it to you." Some say I'm not reading the promises in context. Others say I'm misapplying the verses. Still others say it cannot be proved that when Jesus said "anything" he really meant "anything." Okay, fair enough. I concede that when Jesus said "anything" he didn't really mean "anything".

I read a touching article this morning from a pastor. The crux of it is:

In countless moments I have privately and desperately petitioned God to bring miraculous cures, to reverse seemingly hopeless situations, to circumvent dire diagnoses. I believed healing was possible—and I believed I could sway God with words to bring it. I don’t believe that any longer.

Prayer Doesn't Heal People—At Least I Hope Not

A minister admits he's lost faith in the ability of prayer to sway God to heal. That's not news anymore with thousands of pastors dropping out of the Christian faith in this modern world. But one IS forced to confront why the Bible is actually exhorting Christians to pray for the sick when God never had any intention of healing them:

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed

Psalm 41:3
The Lord sustains him on his sickbed; in his illness you restore him to full health.

James, though, is the troubling one to me. James presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives a command for the sick to call the church elders to pray over him. James makes an ironclad promise that the elders' prayer of faith will heal the sick person. It's there in black white. I have had Christians tell me that the word "save" means save their soul and God will raise him up means will raise him up to heaven. Why are they praying over a sick person just so that he can be saved spiritually? Does that make sense? What if the sick person is already "saved" i.e. believes and trusts in Jesus, how can they be saved again?

Is this passage truthful? Some say the Bible cannot lie, but what I see right before me is an outright lie from James. I've had church elders pray over me to no avail. I'm sure most Christians have too. So how are we to interpret this ironclad promise? Has Christianity in today's world become a case of black is actually white and truth is actually falsehood? How are people supposed to respond when they see a verse like "God WILL raise up those who are sick" and then see it not happen over and over and over?

How are people supposed to confront James' obvious lie, or are they simply supposed to run away from it, tuck in away in the drawer or just bury their heads in the sand?

Or should Christians take the easy way out and say that when James promised that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up, that James didn't really mean that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up--that's not what the verse is saying at all?

May I give a really short answer?
If you look over every one of these quoted scriptures (and more besides) they do not explicitly say that a healing will take place in EVERY instance, if they did THEN they would be wrong.
In fact if you check it out even Jesus was unable to perform miracles in certain areas because of the amount of unbelief. I.E. if there is NO real faith God is not going to just give out a miraculous blessing, but if the faith is real He will either make the requested event happen, or it will be obvious why he did not.
In this case it is obvious to me why He did not. He knew they were faithless, did not the "thousands of pastors" you mention leave their religion when they did not get what they wanted? Is that faith?
In other cases other reasons for not performing the miracle can be obvious.
This does not change the fact that God performs innumerable miracles, including healings, EVERY DAY.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

May I give a really short answer?
If you look over every one of these quoted scriptures (and more besides) they do not explicitly say that a healing will take place in EVERY instance, if they did THEN they would be wrong.
In fact if you check it out even Jesus was unable to perform miracles in certain areas because of the amount of unbelief. I.E. if there is NO real faith God is not going to just give out a miraculous blessing, but if the faith is real He will either make the requested event happen, or it will be obvious why he did not.
In this case it is obvious to me why He did not. He knew they were faithless, did not the "thousands of pastors" you mention leave their religion when they did not get what they wanted? Is that faith?
In other cases other reasons for not performing the miracle can be obvious.
This does not change the fact that God performs innumerable miracles, including healings, EVERY DAY.

Look at the language in James. Now with that in mind, if you told me you had $10,000 worth of unpaid medical bill and I told you, "I will give you the $10,000" and you knew me to be completely trustworthy you'd say, "I don't have to worry. Truth is going to give me the money." wouldn't you? because I said "I will". Now look at the sentence in James: "the Lord will raise them up" Same language, right--The Lord will raise him up. I see a conditional promise that the Lord WILL do this IF a person confesses his sins if he has unconfessed sin. If he doesn't have unconfessed sin then the promise is unconditional. Do you agree? If not, do you dispute the meaning of the phrase, "I will do this"?

 

[Inquire of God]

Look at the language in James. Now with that in mind, if you told me you had $10,000 worth of unpaid medical bill and I told you, "I will give you the $10,000" and you knew me to be completely trustworthy you'd say, "I don't have to worry. Truth is going to give me the money." wouldn't you? because I said "I will". Now look at the sentence in James: "the Lord will raise them up" Same language, right--The Lord will raise him up. I see a conditional promise that the Lord WILL do this IF a person confesses his sins if he has unconfessed sin. If he doesn't have unconfessed sin then the promise is unconditional. Do you agree? If not, do you dispute the meaning of the phrase, "I will do this"?

But, if we know all the facts in each instance, like God does, then we will know what the reason is that He did not honor the request. There are a lot of liars out there, Matthew 7:22,23 tells us that 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We should keep this in mind when the disaffected try to convince us God did not honor their so-called righteous requests. And I mean this in the nicest possible way.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

But, if we know all the facts in each instance, like God does, then we will know what the reason is that He did not honor the request. There are a lot of liars out there, Matthew 7:22,23 tells us that 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We should keep this in mind when the disaffected try to convince us God did not honor their so-called righteous requests. And I mean this in the nicest possible way.

Well, Isaiah prophesied in God's name, and Micah prophesied in God's name. So did Zechariah, Obadiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. Maybe Jesus will say to them, Depart from me I never knew you. After some of them got some prophecies wrong. That makes them false prophets.

 

[thomas t]

I've seen healings via anointed oil prayer. Recall, though, the James passage says the person healed must confess sin.

Actually it doesn't, as I see it.
It says first that the person prayed for gets "saved" whatever that means... and afterwards, in verse 16, it says: now confess you sins please.
So first salvation, confession last. There's a clear order of things in James, as I see it.

I appreciate that but it's customary for more than one person to lay hands on someone. You've seen this at revivals where 3 or 4 of the church clergy lay hands on a person's back as they pray for him. Three elders of my church laid hands on me and prayed. Nothing happened. I didn't get well. As I worsened I eventually said, "To hell with all this voodoo mumbo-jumbo" and went to a physician who wrote me some prescriptions and that cured me. The doctor became God in my mind, not the Christian God.

thank you.
Then it's not your church, I suggest.