Questioning The Veracity Of James 5:15-16

[SeekingAllTruth]

Some (not necessarily here) have accused me of expecting too much from the Bible's promises. I've mentioned that the only promise made by Jesus that appears in ALL 4 GOSPELS is: "Ask the father for ANYTHING in my name and he will give it to you." Some say I'm not reading the promises in context. Others say I'm misapplying the verses. Still others say it cannot be proved that when Jesus said "anything" he really meant "anything." Okay, fair enough. I concede that when Jesus said "anything" he didn't really mean "anything".

I read a touching article this morning from a pastor. The crux of it is:

In countless moments I have privately and desperately petitioned God to bring miraculous cures, to reverse seemingly hopeless situations, to circumvent dire diagnoses. I believed healing was possible—and I believed I could sway God with words to bring it. I don’t believe that any longer.

Prayer Doesn't Heal People—At Least I Hope Not

A minister admits he's lost faith in the ability of prayer to sway God to heal. That's not news anymore with thousands of pastors dropping out of the Christian faith in this modern world. But one IS forced to confront why the Bible is actually exhorting Christians to pray for the sick when God never had any intention of healing them:

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed

Psalm 41:3
The Lord sustains him on his sickbed; in his illness you restore him to full health.

James, though, is the troubling one to me. James presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives a command for the sick to call the church elders to pray over him. James makes an ironclad promise that the elders' prayer of faith will heal the sick person. It's there in black white. I have had Christians tell me that the word "save" means save their soul and God will raise him up means will raise him up to heaven. Why are they praying over a sick person just so that he can be saved spiritually? Does that make sense? What if the sick person is already "saved" i.e. believes and trusts in Jesus, how can they be saved again?

Is this passage truthful? Some say the Bible cannot lie, but what I see right before me is an outright lie from James. I've had church elders pray over me to no avail. I'm sure most Christians have too. So how are we to interpret this ironclad promise? Has Christianity in today's world become a case of black is actually white and truth is actually falsehood? How are people supposed to respond when they see a verse like "God WILL raise up those who are sick" and then see it not happen over and over and over?

How are people supposed to confront James' obvious lie, or are they simply supposed to run away from it, tuck in away in the drawer or just bury their heads in the sand?

Or should Christians take the easy way out and say that when James promised that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up, that James didn't really mean that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up--that's not what the verse is saying at all?

 

[JoshuaTree]

No different than saying to the mountain throw yourself into the sea... Unless of course free will gets in your way.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

No different than saying to the mountain throw yourself into the sea... Unless of course free will gets in your way.

There IS a subtle difference, isn't there? Jesus was trying to make a point--that the tiniest bit of true faith has the power to move mountains. But James is giving a specific instruction, "Have the church elders pray for you and God will heal you" i.e. save you and raise you up off your sick bed. What do the words actually mean? I have been accused of misinterpreting. I know of no other way to interpret these words.

 

[JoshuaTree]

There IS a subtle difference, isn't there? Jesus was trying to make a point--that the tiniest bit of true faith has the power to move mountains. But James is giving a specific instruction, "Have the church elders pray for you and God will heal you" i.e. save you and raise you up off your sick bed. What do the words actually mean? I have been accused of misinterpreting. I know of no other way to interpret these words.

I think the most any of us can ever hope for is to see the good in God's plan for us and our neighbor, to do so we overcome sin death and the power of the devil, and all is exactly as it should be. If what we see doesn't fit with what we interpret/believe is it God that is wrong?

 

[Left Coast]

Prayer seems more apt for changing the one who prays. There is little evidence it has any power to affect others. And even for oneself, if the issue is medical, best to consult a doctor on how to treat it.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I think the most any of us can ever hope for is to see the good in God's plan for us and our neighbor, to do so we overcome sin death and the power of the devil, and all is exactly as it should be. If what we see doesn't fit with what we interpret/believe is it God that is wrong?

I see you're spiritual, not Christian so I understand your reluctant response. This is usually the kind of evasive answer I get from Christians when I ask these questions. Christians hate these kinds of questions and usually give me a similar evasive answers because they realize I catch God dead to rights making promises He doesn't keep if we're to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Well, sorry there's a error, or untruth here unless I'm mistaken the interpretation of the passage. That's why I ask because it was this particular passage from James that put a giant crack in the foundation of my faith. I couldn't trust God anymore when I called the church elders to pray for me, claiming the truth of the James passage, and their prayers failed utterly and miserably for me. Eventually I recovered, but it was with treatment from a good doctor who recognized my problem and delivered a proper diagnosis. Sadly, many millions of Christians have claimed the promise of James and have succumbed to their illness anyway. I don't understand this. God promise either works or it doesn't but there cannot be half measures for God or the whole thing is a fraud.

Let's analyze the passage:

Is anyone among you sick?

Yes. Me.

Then call the elders of the church to pray over you and have them anoint you with oil in the name of the Lord.

What will happen?

Their prayer offered in faith will make you well. The Lord will raise you up.

Are we talking spiritual sickness or physical sickness here?

That's for you to decide.

So let's go with the premise James is talking spiritual sickness here. Was I cured of my spiritual sickness? Well, I didn't have a spiritual sickness at the time, I had a physical malady. So I didn't need curing in the spiritual department. But even if I did, their failure to cure me only gave me a horrible spiritual sickness from which I never recovered. I lost faith in Jesus and God. So God failed me even on both a physical AND a spiritual level.

The language is pretty straightforward to me. But if I am mistaking the meaning of this very transparent language please someone point out where I am misinterpreting. I lost my faith over this passage, among other things. As I said, Christians hate to deal with these kinds of questions so they rarely ever respond. I'm not hopeful. Sorry.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Prayer seems more apt for changing the one who prays. There is little evidence it has any power to affect others. And even for oneself, if the issue is medical, best to consult a doctor on how to treat it.

Then why did the writers of James insert this monumental promise into his epistle? Didn't they realize they were putting God's head into a noose with it? Eventually people were going to catch on that the verse was a fraud---that it didn't work as promised. So what was the angle? The only think I can figure is that the churchmen inserted it to attract more pagans to join Christianity by promising them God would cure them of illness if they got sick. That's a powerful inducement to join Christianity, but it was doomed to fail.

 

[Left Coast]

Then why did the writers of James insert this monumental promise into his epistle? Didn't they realize they were putting God's head into a noose with it? Eventually people were going to catch on that the verse was a fraud---that it didn't work as promised. So what was the angle? The only think I can figure is that the churchmen inserted it to attract more pagans to join Christianity by promising them God would cure them of illness if they got sick. That's a powerful inducement to join Christianity, but it was doomed to fail.

The Bible's authors don't really shy away from outlandish claims. This one is pretty mild in context.

 

[74x12]

Some (not necessarily here) have accused me of expecting too much from the Bible's promises. I've mentioned that the only promise made by Jesus that appears in ALL 4 GOSPELS is: "Ask the father for ANYTHING in my name and he will give it to you." Some say I'm not reading the promises in context. Others say I'm misapplying the verses. Still others say it cannot be proved that when Jesus said "anything" he really meant "anything." Okay, fair enough. I concede that when Jesus said "anything" he didn't really mean "anything".

I read a touching article this morning from a pastor. The crux of it is:

In countless moments I have privately and desperately petitioned God to bring miraculous cures, to reverse seemingly hopeless situations, to circumvent dire diagnoses. I believed healing was possible—and I believed I could sway God with words to bring it. I don’t believe that any longer.

Prayer Doesn't Heal People—At Least I Hope Not

A minister admits he's lost faith in the ability of prayer to sway God to heal. That's not news anymore with thousands of pastors dropping out of the Christian faith in this modern world. But one IS forced to confront why the Bible is actually exhorting Christians to pray for the sick when God never had any intention of healing them:

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed

Psalm 41:3
The Lord sustains him on his sickbed; in his illness you restore him to full health.

James, though, is the troubling one to me. James presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives a command for the sick to call the church elders to pray over him. James makes an ironclad promise that the elders' prayer of faith will heal the sick person. It's there in black white. I have had Christians tell me that the word "save" means save their soul and God will raise him up means will raise him up to heaven. Why are they praying over a sick person just so that he can be saved spiritually? Does that make sense? What if the sick person is already "saved" i.e. believes and trusts in Jesus, how can they be saved again?

Is this passage truthful? Some say the Bible cannot lie, but what I see right before me is an outright lie from James. I've had church elders pray over me to no avail. I'm sure most Christians have too. So how are we to interpret this ironclad promise? Has Christianity in today's world become a case of black is actually white and truth is actually falsehood? How are people supposed to respond when they see a verse like "God WILL raise up those who are sick" and then see it not happen over and over and over?

How are people supposed to confront James' obvious lie, or are they simply supposed to run away from it, tuck in away in the drawer or just bury their heads in the sand?

Or should Christians take the easy way out and say that when James promised that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up, that James didn't really mean that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up--that's not what the verse is saying at all?

Picking and choosing scriptures is unbelief and really the opposite of faith. You're saying you don't really believe the Bible.

The thing is James had faith and many people don't so of course it's not coming true for them. But he says by faith that God will raise him up. However, even Jesus didn't heal a lot of people because their own unbelief. (Mark 6:5-6)

This is why Jesus said "according to your faith be it unto you"

 

[Brickjectivity]

@SeekingAllTruth, I can sympathize; but what is ironclad is that the authors of the NT often have a strange and counterintuitive nadsat. Its very unlikely that you have caught James in an inescapable lie. There is precedence for calling sin a disease or an ailment and not just in the NT, either. It starts in the Jewish prophets. They also go so far as to talk about the death of Israel and its resurrection, its illness and healing. James can borrow from this tradition and be consistent.

Admittedly its often presented to the unlearned as something else entirely -- the claim to healing miracles. That's a dirty lowdown trick in my opinion but not James intention I think. Its probably not the intention of James.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Prayer seems more apt for changing the one who prays. There is little evidence it has any power to affect others. And even for oneself, if the issue is medical, best to consult a doctor on how to treat it.

I agree, but that is not what James is commanding, is it?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The Bible's authors don't really shy away from outlandish claims. This one is pretty mild in context.

But then if this is true--if the authors really do make outlandish claims and promises, then what authority does Christianity stand on? If the Bible is not trustworthy then why should Christians look to it as God's authority on earth?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Picking and choosing scriptures is unbelief and really the opposite of faith. You're saying you don't really believe the Bible.

The thing is James had faith and many people don't so of course it's not coming true for them. But he says by faith that God will raise him up. However, even Jesus didn't heal a lot of people because their own unbelief. (Mark 6:5-6)

This is why Jesus said "according to your faith be it unto you"

I was a dye-in-the-wool Christian of tremendous faith at the time. That's why I obeyed James' command and called my church elders. The fact I did demonstrates my faith. If I had thought James was a useless empty promise would I have gone through all that trouble? You're talking picking and choosing scriptures in the present time. Of course it is unbelief on my part. I don't believe a thing the Bible promises now, but I'd like to understand if this is my error because I don't comprehend the passage or if it really is the Bible's fault that James is giving Christians a bum steer.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

@SeekingAllTruth, I can sympathize; but what is ironclad is that the authors of the NT often have a strange and counterintuitive nadsat. Its very unlikely that you have caught James in an inescapable lie. There is precedence for calling sin a disease or an ailment and not just in the NT, either. It starts in the Jewish prophets. They also go so far as to talk about the death of Israel and its resurrection, its illness and healing. James can borrow from this tradition and be consistent.

Admittedly its often presented to the unlearned as something else entirely -- the claim to healing miracles. That's a dirty lowdown trick in my opinion but not James intention I think. Its probably not the intention of James.

Thank you, that was very helpful. So James is referring to sickness being a metaphysical/spiritual malady, not a physical one. Problem is most Christians don't know that. Many Christians lose their faith when they claim this promise and on the surface it fails. Unanswered prayer is one of the chief ways people fall away from Jesus. Another is simply reading the Bible.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thank you, that was very helpful. So James is referring to sickness being a metaphysical/spiritual malady, not a physical one. Problem is most Christians don't know that. Many Christians lose their faith when they claim this promise and on the surface it fails. Unanswered prayer is one of the chief ways people fall away from Jesus. Another is simply reading the Bible.

I think that James is. James is good for pointing out some inconsistencies in many systematic theologies, but I think it can only be accepted by some people.

Changing deeply and communally accepted truths is painful and confusing. People behave like herds.

To talk to someone about James I think you have to find that rare person who is mature enough to have compassion about where the group is headed and who is read up on the background information, such as the scriptures James is familiar with and cultural bits about Judaism -- and who is not distracted. You have to find them at a time of life where they are not distracted and will spend time thinking about it. Such species don't last long in the chemical soup and are quickly used up.

Unfortunately its the successful people who more often than not don't care about this sort of thing. A lot of very successful and intelligent people are busy with the business of living, having their own children, working and relaxing. Society moves on, trampling whoever gets in the way.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I think that James is. James is good for pointing out some inconsistencies in many systematic theologies, but I think it can only be accepted by some people.

Changing deeply and communally accepted truths is painful and confusing. People behave like herds.

To talk to someone about James I think you have to find that rare person who is mature enough to have compassion about where the group is headed and who is read up on the background information, such as the scriptures James is familiar with and cultural bits about Judaism -- and who is not distracted. You have to find them at a time of life where they are not distracted and will spend time thinking about it. Such species don't last long in the chemical soup and are quickly used up.

Unfortunately its the successful people who more often than not don't care about this sort of thing. A lot of very successful and intelligent people are busy with the business of living, having their own children, working and relaxing. Society moves on, trampling whoever gets in the way.

This is true. The average Christian cracks the Bible once or twice a year--at Easter and Christmas. Most I think are not the kind of Christians Jesus would approve of, which is why the faith is gradually breaking apart as people become more secularized in this modern world. These discussions are more for the theological minded, although I drifted into it as a disillusioned Christian who decided to break away because so much of it just didn't make any sense.Of course there is an angle for that:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing..." So it's not God, it's us.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

It is a crock that God heals all the illnesses of people who pray to him, elders involved or no elders. Sometimes God heals and sometimes he does not and we have no idea what his reasons are.

When I was in my early forties, I came down with congestive heart failure. I had all the symptoms, swollen legs and the whole nine yards, and it was confirmed by a ultra sound in the ER that my heart was enlarged. Then when I went to the cardiologist and he had a second ultrasound done, it was as if my heart had never had a problem in the world. I've never had problems with my heart since. There is no medical explanation for the spontaneous healing of my heart.

On the other hand, I have two other serious illnesses that require constant medical care, one of which I have had my whole life, and God has not seen fit to cure them.

Baruch HaShem. He knows what is ultimately best. I leave myself to his wishes, and I thank him for the many well trained, intelligent doctors he has sent into my life.

 

[thomas t]

Some (not necessarily here) have accused me of expecting too much from the Bible's promises. I've mentioned that the only promise made by Jesus that appears in ALL 4 GOSPELS is: "Ask the father for ANYTHING in my name and he will give it to you." Some say I'm not reading the promises in context. Others say I'm misapplying the verses. Still others say it cannot be proved that when Jesus said "anything" he really meant "anything." Okay, fair enough. I concede that when Jesus said "anything" he didn't really mean "anything".

I read a touching article this morning from a pastor. The crux of it is:

In countless moments I have privately and desperately petitioned God to bring miraculous cures, to reverse seemingly hopeless situations, to circumvent dire diagnoses. I believed healing was possible—and I believed I could sway God with words to bring it. I don’t believe that any longer.

Prayer Doesn't Heal People—At Least I Hope Not

A minister admits he's lost faith in the ability of prayer to sway God to heal. That's not news anymore with thousands of pastors dropping out of the Christian faith in this modern world. But one IS forced to confront why the Bible is actually exhorting Christians to pray for the sick when God never had any intention of healing them:

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed

Psalm 41:3
The Lord sustains him on his sickbed; in his illness you restore him to full health.

James, though, is the troubling one to me. James presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives a command for the sick to call the church elders to pray over him. James makes an ironclad promise that the elders' prayer of faith will heal the sick person. It's there in black white. I have had Christians tell me that the word "save" means save their soul and God will raise him up means will raise him up to heaven. Why are they praying over a sick person just so that he can be saved spiritually? Does that make sense? What if the sick person is already "saved" i.e. believes and trusts in Jesus, how can they be saved again?

Is this passage truthful? Some say the Bible cannot lie, but what I see right before me is an outright lie from James. I've had church elders pray over me to no avail. I'm sure most Christians have too. So how are we to interpret this ironclad promise? Has Christianity in today's world become a case of black is actually white and truth is actually falsehood? How are people supposed to respond when they see a verse like "God WILL raise up those who are sick" and then see it not happen over and over and over?

How are people supposed to confront James' obvious lie, or are they simply supposed to run away from it, tuck in away in the drawer or just bury their heads in the sand?

Or should Christians take the easy way out and say that when James promised that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up, that James didn't really mean that if elders prayed over a sick person he would be healed and raised up--that's not what the verse is saying at all?

Thank you for presenting your doubts.
So now, the pastor might have made technical mistakes.
He just prayed.
But James doesn't require the pastor to just pray.
James says that the sick person should call for the elders. It's plural.
Is that an umimportant detail?
No, I don't think so.
Jesus wanted to prevent potential abuse of power, so he said elders in plural.

 

[Brickjectivity]

This is true. The average Christian cracks the Bible once or twice a year--at Easter and Christmas. Most I think are not the kind of Christians Jesus would approve of, which is why the faith is gradually breaking apart as people become more secularized in this modern world. These discussions are more for the theological minded, although I drifted into it as a disillusioned Christian who decided to break away because so much of it just didn't make any sense.Of course there is an angle for that:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing..." So it's not God, it's us.

Disillusioned or transforming? When people judge you they do it in ignorance, and neither they nor I (nor perhaps you) know what you are becoming. If people distance themselves (or claim you aren't a Christian) because you have a fleck of dust on your face that's stupid. We're always relatively ignorant, but its hard not to judge another person's ignorance. It hard not to worry about their path. I should distance myself if you were trying to get me involved in drug addiction or involved in some evil schemes; but other then that we should cooperate. I should avoid condescension, because in truth I may be looking up at genius and not realize it. Now that is James.

We should break bread regardless of understanding. Breaking bread is about something more than that. A friend loves at all times, not just in the good times. Ignorance is the starting point no matter where we are. It is the clay of which we are formed.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Disillusioned or transforming? When people judge you they do it in ignorance, and neither they nor I (nor perhaps you) know what you are becoming. If people distance themselves (or claim you aren't a Christian) because you have a fleck of dust on your face that's stupid. We're always relatively ignorant, but its hard not to judge another person's ignorance. It hard not to worry about their path. I should distance myself if you were trying to get me involved in drug addiction or involved in some evil schemes; but other then that we should cooperate. I should avoid condescension, because in truth I may be looking up at genius and not realize it. Now that is James.

We should break bread regardless of understanding. Breaking bread is about something more than that. A friend loves at all times, not just in the good times. Ignorance is the starting point no matter where we are. It is the clay of which we are formed.

I get the jist of what you're saying but this is more philosophy than religion. I'm not much on philosophy, sorry. Religious history of Christianity is more my forte.