nPeace
Veteran Member
Did I answer your questions?
I don't remember saying these things, and I can't understand these questions. Why do you ask them?
The Bible is a book.
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Sin
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
I don't remember saying these things, and I can't understand these questions. Why do you ask them?
The Bible is a book.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am okay with trying to meet God's standards, but nobody can ever be perfect so expecting to be is just a setup for failure and guilt.
The Bible says, but that is not anything you can ever prove can you?
So as such it is just a belief.
Ask me if I care? Why would I care what people think of me?
All I care about is doing what I consider the right thing, according to the teachings and laws of my religion.
I believe it because I believe the one who says it is infallible, but also because it is logical. Human beings were created because of God's immeasurable love for us, but they cannot receive God's love if they turn their heart from Him because God does not force His love on us, so if we don't want it we are just sol so to speak. I do not necessarily consider that fair, it is just a Baha'i belief. I'd rather have God coming after me with His love the way Christians believe but I don't believe God does that because it violates free will.
They were denied knowledge of good and evil.
So they could hardly have been perfect, no?
WalterTrull
Godfella
I liked the definition. Thanks.
The rest is kind of preachy, so I didn't read it all. Well intended, I'm sure, but we older folks can only take capsules.
Audie
Veteran Member
Yah... That statement is more true than you will ever know.
And I am so glad not to know.
sin to miss the mark is like belief without understanding/knowledge. its sin based on ignorance. then there is willful sin; which can't be forgiven..
nPeace
Veteran Member
Perfect according to whom... According to you?
As the OP shows, perfection is relative to God. Absolute perfection can belong only to the creator of all things.
Prove what... that the Bible says...? I just did.
Prove that God cares? According to the Bible, he does.
Whom or what do you want me to prove it according to?
Where do you go to find out about God. I hope it's not your head.
Okay, So it's not about logic, but rather, what your religion teaches.
So why make disparaging remarks about Christians, and attack their intellectual ability? Why do you think they care?
It's no more logical than Santa Clause went down the chimney.
Why is it logical that God created human beings out of immeasurable love, with a lower nature - that is, an ingrained tendency toward "sinning" - a Satan, and then they can't benefit from God's love, because they follow their inclination to Satan?
It's more logical that God created beings in his image, with his qualities embedded in their core, but with freedom to choose their own course - i.e. the freedom to reflect those fine qualities, and show gratitude and love for their grand life giver, and provider of all good things. The choice to be appreciative and grow in perfect love, or to be unappreciative rebellious children.
The latter is both reasonable, and logical, and it is exactly what we see in the Bible.
nPeace
Veteran Member
nPeace
Veteran Member
Preachy? Informative seems more accurate. After all, it's only 30 seconds long.
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nPeace
Veteran Member
Matthew 12:30-34
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
I wondered what idea(s) are you thinking are 'crippling', specifically?
If it happens the idea you think is crippling is the idea of 'sin', a definition might help any discussion. 'sin' -- an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law. Then you could state what is the crippling part in that case. (e.g.: Is it that there is such a thing as a moral/immoral action? )
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It does not matter who it is according to, I was just saying that no human can be perfect because only God is perfect.
Since I am a Baha'i, i go to the Writings of Baha'u'llah to find out about God. You are a Christian so you go to the Bible. It's about the same, except that Baha'u'llah did not mince words so it is a lot easier to understand who God really is from His Writings. The same information is in the Bible, but the Bible is a lot more difficult to understanding there are many contradictions, so a person could walk away very confused.
But my point was that whether it is the Bible or the Baha'i Writings, it is just a belief, because you cannot prove anything written about God in any scripture is actually true.
Please show me where I made any disparaging remarks about Christians or attacked their intellectual ability.
I never said that they can't benefit from God's love because they follow their inclination to Satan.
I said if they shut God out for whatever reason, God is not going to come running after them because God honors free will.
I absolutely agree with what you said above and it is in accordance with Baha'i beliefs. It is also logical, but human beings are not always logical so sometimes we get angry at God. I guess you could say that is because humans are imperfect, and that is why we need forgiveness.
Its general meaning is 'faultless, unblemished' so I assume that's what you meant ─ if not, please tell me what you meant instead.
And ignorance of things that matter is a fault, a blemish. In the story God makes them that way so the blemish is God's fault (both in that sense and in the different sense of responsibility for error).
The Garden story is ruthlessly perverted by Christians, of course. It isn't about "sin" or "the Fall of Man" or "death entering the world" or "spiritual death" ─ those things are never mentioned. What it is about is harder to say. My best guess is that it's a parable about the childhood of humanity, then the eating of the fruit representing adolescence, then the expulsion representing going forth to earn one's own living ─ or something along those lines.
Audie
Veteran Member
The whole thing of "sin nature " and fear of
E-ternal damnation sure messes up some people.
So I look up a list of "sins ".
A lot, most i guess is what any civilized
people are taught. We don't pretend " God " made a list
and will get us good if we lie steal and kill. We are taught
what is right.
Other "sins"? Like me not covering my hair
when "god" says, things like that? You figure
that is immoral? IMMORAL?
I will tell you what is immoral, is making up
garbage like that and scaring / controlling
people with threats of hellfire if they don't obey.
You actually need me to explain how sick all that is?
Audie
Veteran Member
Great message, nobody knows what it means.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Regarding the story of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, in Some Answered Questions Abdu’l-Baha said:
“We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol.”
He then goes onto explain one of the possible meanings of the story: 30: ADAM AND EVE
Then he concludes by saying “This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.”
nPeace
Veteran Member
You base that on what... you own belief / view / idea?
tamam: to be complete or finished
Original Word: תָּמַם
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tamam
Phonetic Spelling: (taw-mam')
Definition: to be complete or finished
These are the generations of Noah Noah was a just man and perfect [/ complete / blameless] in his generations and Noah walked with God
אֵ֚לֶּה תֹּולְדֹ֣ת נֹ֔חַ נֹ֗חַ אִ֥ישׁ צַדִּ֛יק תָּמִ֥ים הָיָ֖ה בְּדֹֽרֹתָ֑יו אֶת־ הָֽאֱלֹהִ֖ים הִֽתְהַלֶּךְ־ נֹֽחַ׃
The Hebrew word tamam (תָּמִ֥ים), is used to refer to both God, and man.
Deuteronomy 32:4 Interlinear: The Rock! -- perfect is His work, For all His ways are just; God of stedfastness, and without iniquity: Righteous and upright is He.
2 Samuel 22:31
HEB: הָאֵ֖ל תָּמִ֣ים דַּרְכּ֑וֹ אִמְרַ֤ת
NAS: His way is blameless; The word
KJV: his way [is] perfect; the word
INT: God is blameless his way the word
Psalm 19:7
HEB: תּ֘וֹרַ֤ת יְהוָ֣ה תְּ֭מִימָה מְשִׁ֣יבַת נָ֑פֶשׁ
NAS: of the LORD is perfect, restoring
KJV: of the LORD [is] perfect, converting
INT: the law of the LORD is perfect restoring the soul
Ezekiel 28:15
HEB: תָּמִ֤ים אַתָּה֙ בִּדְרָכֶ֔יךָ
NAS: You were blameless in your ways
KJV: Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways
INT: were blameless in your ways
The writers understood the use of the word perfect - complete.
God is perfect - complete - in the absolute sense. Man is perfect - complete - in the relative sense.
It is no different to how we use other words, for example, truth.
I thought Bahaullah referred to the Bible, and acknowledged Moses, and the prophets, including Jesus Christ.
The Bible
The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
Is this accurate?
A Bahá'í View of the Bible
Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts
If it is, isn't it clear that Bahais are divided?
They don't even agree on the Bible. So how can the claim that Bahaullah is a manifestation and messenger of God, be true.
We know of God's dealings with Israel from the Bible, and Moses' writings, so if you do not appreciate the Bible as God's word, your foundation evidently seems very weak.
Would that not clearly reveal Bahaulla's origin? (Matthew 7:15 ; Matthew 24:11)
I think you ought to speak for yourself.
If I didn't prove it, I would probably be like you. Or I might be a non religion religious person... whatever that is. You never did explain that to me.
Here is just one - Do any religious believers, Christian or Baha'i, ever bother to think this through logically, or do they just BELIEVE?
Yes. God dignified man with freedom of choice.
I'm referring to the wiki article though. Not what you said. Do you disagree with what the article said?
Sometimes we are too wise in our own eyes - we think our logic is so superior. It's a haughty spirit... one God says he hates, and brings the individual down for - humiliates them.
(1 Corinthians 1:19-21) 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, God was pleased through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Well, at least we agree that I indeed don't 'pretend' God made an illustrative list of basic moral laws, but rather could state simply that he has done so, where it to come up as a topic. Few Christians cover their hair that I've seen (they generally have a more full and meaningful understanding of the intent of that example in from that time and place -- simply about modesty vs ostentatious display), but you certainly are free to cover or not cover your hair in any manner you choose in any of the 50 or so churches of about 8 denominations I've been in over the decades. Here's something more firm: we are specifically instructed not to judge each other.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I'll work with what you believe, without being precise.
So can you explain how not having one thing or other makes one faulty, or blemished.
For example, say Adam and Eve are perfect. Would Eve not having testicles make her imperfect?
Does Adam and Eve not being like God,make them imperfect?
Or isn't it the case that there is relative perfection - Perfect in that it is made for a specific purpose, and having exactly what it needs for that purpose?
If doors are built, and placed in a store for sale, the fact that they don't have hinges, and I need to buy those, and put them on, does not make the door faulty and blemished.
Putting the hinges on might make it faulty, because when I purchase the door with the fitted hinges, it may not fit the slots for the hinges on my door frame.
Adam and Eve were not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and bad, because they were not created with the right to decide for themselves what is good and bad.
God set the tree there and set restrictions on it, as a representation of his right to decide for them what is good and bad.
Rather than submit to this, Adam and Eve rebelled against that authority.
What blemish is their fault? They both knew it was wrong to take fruit from the one tree. God told them. They understood. The fault was their own.
The thing about your guess is that none of it can be supported scripturally, so at best, your guess is a tall tale.
On the contrary, the account of Adam and Eve sinning against God, is supported by scriptures running fro Genesis through to Revelation.
(Genesis 1:26-28) 26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
(Genesis 5:1-5) 1 This is the book of Adam’s history. In the day that God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them. On the day they were created, he blessed them and named them Man. 3 Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth. 4 After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.
(1 Chronicles 1:1-4) 1 Adam, Seth, Eʹnosh, 2 Keʹnan, Ma·halʹa·lel, Jaʹred, 3 Eʹnoch, Me·thuʹse·lah, Laʹmech, 4 Noah, Shem, Ham, and Jaʹpheth.
Luke 3:36-38
(Genesis 5:1-5) 1 This is the book of Adam’s history. In the day that God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them. On the day they were created, he blessed them and named them Man. 3 Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth. 4 After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.
(1 Chronicles 1:1-4) 1 Adam, Seth, Eʹnosh, 2 Keʹnan, Ma·halʹa·lel, Jaʹred, 3 Eʹnoch, Me·thuʹse·lah, Laʹmech, 4 Noah, Shem, Ham, and Jaʹpheth.
Luke 3:36-38
(Psalm 51:5) Look! I was born guilty of error, And my mother conceived me in sin.
(Ecclesiastes 7:20) For there is no righteous man on earth who always does good and never sins.
(1 Kings 8:46) . . .there is no man who does not sin. . .
(Exodus 29:36) You will offer the bull of the sin offering daily for an atonement, and you are to purify the altar from sin by making atonement for it, and you must anoint it to sanctify it.
(Acts 17:26) And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell,
(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(Romans 5:12-14) 12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come.
(1 Corinthians 15:22, 45)
22.For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(1 Timothy 2:13, 14) 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor.
(1 John 1:8) If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.
(Ecclesiastes 7:20) For there is no righteous man on earth who always does good and never sins.
(1 Kings 8:46) . . .there is no man who does not sin. . .
(Exodus 29:36) You will offer the bull of the sin offering daily for an atonement, and you are to purify the altar from sin by making atonement for it, and you must anoint it to sanctify it.
(Acts 17:26) And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell,
(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(Romans 5:12-14) 12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come.
(1 Corinthians 15:22, 45)
22.For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(1 Timothy 2:13, 14) 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor.
(1 John 1:8) If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.
(Isaiah 53:12) For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people, And he interceded for the transgressors.
(Daniel 9:24) “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
(John 1:29) The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
(1 Corinthians 15:55, 56) 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law.
(Daniel 9:24) “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
(John 1:29) The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
(1 Corinthians 15:55, 56) 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law.
It's all there... permeating the entire Bible.
I think people who don't like the thought of sin, should just leave the Bible - just forget about it, or get rid of it.
It's evident we cannot read the Bible and not see that it says we are all sinners, and it explains how we got this way.
(Romans 5:13, 20, 21) 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law.
20 Now the Law came on the scene so that trespassing might increase. But where sin abounded, undeserved kindness abounded still more. 21 To what end? So that just as sin ruled as king with death, so also undeserved kindness might rule as king through righteousness leading to everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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